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spaduf Mod ,
@spaduf@slrpnk.net avatar

I'm gonna link this in the sidebar.

spaduf OP Mod ,
@spaduf@slrpnk.net avatar

Definitely didn't realize this was such an old article. Side note, it's probably also worthwhile to discuss how things have changed in the past decade.

What is the Triad of Male Violence and how does violence manifest against oneself ( manhelpingmen.com )

"I’ve had many clients up and tell me that their friends, their family members, even their partners criticized them or mocked them for recognizing out loud that they were struggling. Of course we’re gonna be scared of being judged or seen as weak if we admit they’re struggling emotionally or mentally, if we know that’s...

spaduf OP Mod ,
@spaduf@slrpnk.net avatar

There's a degree to which deconstruction of these sorts of topics automatically does work to dismantle them. For those with an egalitarian inclination, it is usually enough to point out unfair actions they have taken in the past to prevent them in the future. Obviously, there's a lot more external pressure here (one of the main focuses of the article) but I would argue this is even more relevant in that case.

If we were to try to teach a fish how to clean the water they live in, we must first start with what water is.

spaduf OP Mod ,
@spaduf@slrpnk.net avatar

I actually think that we're all better off without normative gender roles. To that end, I think that any attempt to define an alternative masculinity leaves you with something that is just as restrictive.

spaduf OP Mod ,
@spaduf@slrpnk.net avatar

So I'm not necessarily advocating for a world without individual gender expression. The key difference here is external vs internal pressures.

spaduf Mod ,
@spaduf@slrpnk.net avatar

"Men's rights" has literally always had a toxic connotation.

The term "men's rights" was used at least as early as February 1856 when it appeared in Putnam's Magazine. The author was responding to the issue of women's rights, calling it a "new movement for social reform, and even for political revolution", which the author proposed to counter with men's rights.[12] Ernest Belfort Bax wrote The Legal Subjection of Men in 1896, deriding the women's rights movement as a farcical effort by women—the "privileged sex"—to prove they were "oppressed."

spaduf Mod ,
@spaduf@slrpnk.net avatar

Well, it's important, to recognize that the term is distinct from egalitarian. The term feminism does essentialize the advocating for the equal rights of women, but it is also important to note that while this is a feminist community, this community is not about feminism. This community is about men and their specific liberation from oppressive gender roles and stereotypes.

spaduf Mod ,
@spaduf@slrpnk.net avatar

The term feminism does essentialize the advocating for the equal rights of women (this is good actually), but it is also important to note that while this is a feminist community, this community is not about feminism. This community is about men and their specific liberation from oppressive gender roles and stereotypes.

spaduf Mod ,
@spaduf@slrpnk.net avatar

Feminism does not care that the vast majority of workplace deaths are men. Feminism does not care that boys are failing school at unprecedented rates.
...
My struggles as a man are not feminism’s issue.

I think you'd be surprised. The vast majority of those who actually cover these topics are feminists, doing academic feminism.

spaduf Mod ,
@spaduf@slrpnk.net avatar

The majority of feminists are at least drawing from feminist works (even if the knowledge comes secondhand). When progress is made, it is made at the academic level.

'Boys are disappearing' from mental health care, as signs of depression and anxiety go undetected ( www.nbcnews.com )

Research found while antidepressant prescriptions have risen dramatically in the US for teenage girls and women in their 20s, the rate of such prescriptions for young men “declined abruptly during March 2020 and did not recover.”

spaduf OP Mod ,
@spaduf@slrpnk.net avatar

I would like to think that they’re minor, since it’s a federally funded program

This is the sort of thing you’d only ever hear from a resident of California. I can assure you it is never so easy in a red state.

spaduf OP Mod ,
@spaduf@slrpnk.net avatar

Or at least that the effort required to construct one is maybe a misguided use of our resources.

spaduf OP Mod ,
@spaduf@slrpnk.net avatar

Anyone who thinks Trump is a representation of masculinity is not someone who’s opinion on the matter I care for.

While this is a fine personal metric, I think it ignores the growing social power of the strong man right and the related manosphere subcultures.

spaduf OP Mod ,
@spaduf@slrpnk.net avatar

I generally disagree with the analysis of the article. Particularly, I think that Gen Z men and women showing roughly the same divide in voting as older generations still constitutes a major shift. If it gets to the point that Gen Z has a greater divide than older generations, I would consider that an extreme result of this trend. Curious what y’all think?

spaduf Mod , (edited )
@spaduf@slrpnk.net avatar

I haven’t finished the video yet, but I am enjoying so far. It seems to me, the core pattern here is that an adherence to and internalization of these strict gender roles nearly always make people unhappy, and that unhappiness tends to get externalized as blame towards the opposite sex (sometimes even for upholding these gendered expectations). Ultimately, this is in-part a result of the fact that heavily gendered individuals tend to associate with and seek out romantic relationships with other heavily gendered individuals. I am reminded of this article:

psypost.org/adherence-to-traditional-gender-roles…

Which seems to find that their heavily gendered participants were having more sex but enjoying it less.

spaduf OP Mod ,
@spaduf@slrpnk.net avatar

Yeah this part stuck out to me too. It’s really difficult to see all that’s left on the table when we refuse to acknowledge that boys are absolutely still forced into damaging masculine roles.

spaduf OP Mod ,
@spaduf@slrpnk.net avatar

“Fight club isn’t about masculinity” is a pretty weird take. Especially based on the argument that only incels think about masculinity? I don’t think I disagree with what you’re saying overall, but I strongly disagree with both those ideas.

spaduf OP Mod ,
@spaduf@slrpnk.net avatar

Is this “article” seriously three paragraphs?

I believe that’s just the paywall, but I also can’t see it. Also, couldn’t get around it with the usual methods.

spaduf OP Mod ,
@spaduf@slrpnk.net avatar

I think the sentiments they’re attempting to tap into (this idea that masculinity is inherently dangerous) are easily found even outside conservative spaces.

spaduf OP Mod ,
@spaduf@slrpnk.net avatar

That men’s retreat looks exactly like that.

I think the issue is when that companionship is centered around explicitly engaging in masculine aesthetics. Particularly as most mens ability to find companionship is already very much centered around their ability or willingness to perform that masculine role.

spaduf Mod ,
@spaduf@slrpnk.net avatar

To be fair, work dedicated to reaching young men from a feminist perspective has been pretty limited in recent decades.

spaduf Mod ,
@spaduf@slrpnk.net avatar

We absolutely need to be doing more on this front and I think the best solution is actually pretty simple: men should read feminist literature (or discourse) that has their interests in mind. If you take nearly any one of these people and make them read bell hooks (this is the hard part), it will almost certainly change their lives for the better. What’s more, a lot of that just comes down to having their pain validated and it’s relation to patriarchy exposed.

spaduf Mod ,
@spaduf@slrpnk.net avatar

If some feminists include men, I’ll very gladly learn about them, because I’ve never have before. And I consider myself informed.

You are not. There is a long tradition of feminist thought that makes very clear that feminism is inclusive of men. What’s more, feminism very explicitly advocates for the betterment of men in the form of freeing them from oppressive gender roles. I suggest you check out works like Feminism Is for Everybody by bell hooks for an introduction into this pillar of feminism.

spaduf Mod , (edited )
@spaduf@slrpnk.net avatar

It’s very concerning that you don’t understand that you’ve just made an overall feminist argument.

Because feminists abandoned this question.

This is most certainly not true.

Because after metoo most reasonable men understand that. The question is, if we’re not to be dicks, what will we be? And I’m talking about seduction and romantic relationships here. The question the far right is answering.

The far right is answering with “let’s just be dicks”?

spaduf Mod , (edited )
@spaduf@slrpnk.net avatar

Ultimately, I believe this is a direct result of the capitalist capture of feminist aesthetics into the sort of shallow “pop-feminism” that rose to prominence over the past couple of decades. For young men who’ve only ever seen this hyper-sanitized business driven take on feminism (one that notably does not make room for them), it’s easy for them to see it as an extension of the broader trends that leave them disenfranchised.

This is why manosphere influencers are able to amass such a large following seemingly overnight, and why they seem to have such success in accelerating this trend. A lot of young men simply do not have any experience with the broader feminist tradition.

spaduf Mod ,
@spaduf@slrpnk.net avatar

modern wave of feminism

I think it’s worthwhile here to distinguish between fourth wave feminism and pop feminism as it’s practiced by corporations and celebrities. Fourth wave feminism absolutely makes space for men in the movement, and the ideas of intersectionality are incredibly useful in untangling the male struggle. Corporate feminism pays lip service to these ideas, but is ultimately shallow and soulless. Unfortunately, corporate feminist aesthetics are far more prevalent in media and for men with heavily gendered social circles this may be the sum total of their exposure to the movement.

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