stevecrox , 10 months ago

Natural scrolling is the first thing I disable when forced to use a Mac, windows, gnome, kde, xfce, etc.. all scroll in one direction.

Macos has a unique keyboard and a lot of unique non obvious and non discoverable behaviour. For example I use a lot of windows laptops, left and right click involve pushing the trackpad downon the left or right. Someone had to show me right click on a Macbook was a two finger touch. These deliberate non standard behaviours make switching devices really annoying.

I would argue KDE defaults should follow the most common behaviour across multiple platforms, with the option to implement specific quirks.

The move to default double click brings the KDE default into alignment with other platforms (single click isn't the default anywhere else).

I would suggest a bigsur global theme that implements macos keyboard shortcuts, mouse actions, etc.. would be a better compromise.

Zeus , 10 months ago

this is the most common behaviour. windows has natural scrolling and tap to click / two finger tap to right click, and that’s the biggest market share

woelkchen , 10 months ago

this is the most common behaviour.

The most common behavior is now what Steam Deck does and it defaults to neither in Desktop Mode.

windows has natural scrolling and tap to click / two finger tap to right click, and that’s the biggest market share

Yes, Windows has the biggest market share among Windows users. The biggest driver to get Plasma in the hands of users is currently Steam Deck and that throws both conventions out of the window and defaults to actual presses to click and circular movement to scroll down in Desktop Mode.

Zeus , 10 months ago

well… no

the steam deck is not a laptop. the trackpads are used completely differently to a touchpad:

1. they’re used with two different thumbs - left for scroll, right for cursor
2. thumbs have a completely different range of motion than fingers, making circular scrolling comfortable
3. [conjecture:] the circular scrolling was influenced by ipod click wheels, which are held in the same way as a deck, but differently to a laptop

please don’t tell me you’re advocating for two trackpads on laptops, and a swirly motion for scrolling

The most common behavior is now what Steam Deck does and it defaults to neither in Desktop Mode.

Yes, Windows has the biggest market share among Windows users.

windows has the biggest market share on pcs and laptops.[^1] the comment wasn’t “kde should follow defaults from other linux distros”, it was "kde should follow the most common behaviour. windows market share outnumbers macos + linux + chromeos + bsd + opensolaris etc.; and mac also does this by default to my knowledge

The biggest driver to get Plasma in the hands of users is currently Steam Deck and that throws both conventions out of the window and defaults to actual presses to click and circular movement to scroll down in Desktop Mode.

not really. i love my steam deck, but it is a niche product. valve are understandably being cagey about how many units have been sold, but steam deck <<< switch <<< computers. most plasma adopters will be coming from windows.

[^1]: if you want the biggest market share on devices in general, i believe it’s android; which… also uses natural scrolling

woelkchen , 10 months ago

please don’t tell me you’re advocating for two trackpads on laptops, and a swirly motion for scrolling

I’m advocating about not to change defaults based on a propaganda term invented by Apple declaring all people who are not into inverted scrolling to be against nature.

Had you read my comments, you would know that my argument is consistency in movement whether the scrollbar handle is grabbed or two fingers are placed and explicitly not whatever bad behaviors are taught on whatever bad platform.

it was "kde should follow the most common behaviour. windows market share outnumbers macos + linux

OK, cool. Then just copy Windows in everything. Ship Edge and Candy Crush by default, put a huge Bing search bar in the middle of the desktop, ignore usability basics like Fitt’s Law and center the main panel leading to the “start button” move all the fucking time, add nag screens whenever users go off the path of Microsoft-set defaults, and basically take away all arguments for “I’m annoyed by Windows, I want to move somewhere else.” Greatest idea ever…

Zeus , 10 months ago (edited 10 months ago)

I’m advocating about not to change defaults based on a propaganda term invented by Apple declaring all people who are not into inverted scrolling to be against nature.

it’s not a propaganda term you muppet, i was using natural scrolling long before i heard the term. the reason i use that term is that to me, “inverted scrolling” is non-inverted it’s normal; whereas “unnatural scrolling” feels weird and unnatural. also, again, natural scrolling is the same direction as a mousewheel; so if anything should be called “inverted scrolling” it’s the one that goes the opposite direction to the established paradigm

OK, cool. Then just copy Windows in everything. Ship Edge and Candy Crush by default, put a huge Bing search bar in the middle of the desktop, ignore usability basics like Fitt’s Law and center the main panel leading to the “start button” move all the fucking time, add nag screens whenever users go off the path of Microsoft-set defaults, and basically take away all arguments for “I’m annoyed by Windows, I want to move somewhere else.” Greatest idea ever…

ok i didn’t say kde should copy windows, i said that “natural scrolling is the most common behaviour”. but if you’re going to have a tantrum because somebody suggests a default (not even the only option, just a default) that you don’t like, i can’t be bothered to engage. try to read before you work yourself into a tizz next time

also for what it’s worth, windows is much better in regards to fitts’ law than any linux de i’ve used, including kde (edit: except possibly cinnamon)