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Blamemeta ,

I thought it was widely agreed that the bechedel test isn’t a very good metric? Like lesbian porn passes, but a lot of very good ST episodes don’t.

maegul OP ,
@maegul@lemmy.ml avatar

I think it’s more accurate to say that it’s such a low bar that it shouldn’t ever be failed, unless the reverse bechdel test is also being failed in more or less equal measure. Passing it need not mean much. Failing it, regularly, means plenty.

Also, porn basically has no relevance to the assessment of gender diversity in drama.

Blamemeta ,

IIRC Measure of a man doesn’t pass, and thats the best episode imo. And imo, the test is mainly good for rage bait and not much more than that.

hoodatninja , (edited )
@hoodatninja@kbin.social avatar

[Thread, post or comment was deleted by the author]

    •
    Blamemeta ,

    Ok, maybe ragebait isn’t best phrase. Maybe “made to look worse than it is” or “finding something to complain about”

    maegul OP ,
    @maegul@lemmy.ml avatar

    Sorry my friend … that’s a downvote from me.

    Measure of a man doesn’t pass, and thats the best episode imo.

    This isn’t about single episodes or even whether an episode that fails can be good by other standards. Flipping this, would the episode have been worse if two women had a conversation about something other than a man? I’d imagine not at all, so why didn’t it happen?

    And imo, the test is mainly good for rage bait and not much more than that.

    I haven’t seen any rage here … unfortunately, your post is the most angsty I’ve seen, which, I have to say, implies that you’re uncomfortable with something like Trek or TOS being critiqued or diversity issues in general.

    Beyond that, it’s a simple “test” that anyone who actually uses or talks about will acknowledge is simple and flawed, but is also relevant in talking and thinking about gender diversity in how much it if failed. Just look at the graph of pass rates for Trek over time … basically a steady increase (until ENT). That more or less shows that it’s not a meaningless hollow test but actually measures something real.

    If you don’t care about gender diversity or don’t think it’s that important, would you care to explain why?

    Blamemeta ,

    I think the story comes first. A diversity first approach just leads to a terrible story. Something like the Shawshank Redemption, thats a good story but it has no women. And when you have diversity first, you (generally speaking) don’t get good stories. Its not impossible, to be sure, but it usually turns into gimmicks and token characters.

    ValueSubtracted Mod ,
    @ValueSubtracted@startrek.website avatar

    Something like the Shawshank Redemption

    In the original Stephen King novella, Morgan Freeman’s character is a white Irish guy. I look forward to hearing all about your newfound hatred of this forced diversity.

    Blamemeta ,

    But it wasn’t a gimmick. No one pointed to him and said “Look at our token! Hes black! Isn’t that impressive?”

    ValueSubtracted Mod ,
    @ValueSubtracted@startrek.website avatar

    Could you please point me in the direction of the goalposts? I swear you had them right here a moment ago…

    Blamemeta ,

    A diversity approach makes characters into gimmicks. A story first approach doesn’t. How is that moving goalposts?

    USSBurritoTruck Mod ,
    @USSBurritoTruck@startrek.website avatar

    You’re commenting this on a Star Trek discussion forum. A show that was founded on the idea that diversity is a strength. Gene Roddenberry specifically cast women in positions of authority, and non-white actors to be the crew of the Enterprise because he wanted to portray a future where humanity had moved beyond such petty bigotries.

    A franchise which has persisted for 57 years, and is recognized the world over, founded on the “diversity first” approach you’re lamenting.

    Blamemeta ,

    But it wasn’t. No one looked at Worf or Guinan and made their race part of the marketing.

    USSBurritoTruck Mod ,
    @USSBurritoTruck@startrek.website avatar

    Do you have an example of something where that is happening?

    Blamemeta ,

    Easiest example is 2016 ghostbusters. The whole gimmick was that they gender flipped the original.

    USSBurritoTruck Mod ,
    @USSBurritoTruck@startrek.website avatar

    That’s not how that movie was marketed though; it was marketed with a bunch of bad CGI and half-assed adlib because Paul Feig couldn’t write an actually funny script even if he had Mel Brooks and Mike Judge puppeting him like marionette.

    What you’re talking about is the same thing I was talking about, the very conception of the idea. Star Trek from the very beginning in 1966 has been about pushing the boundaries of diversity on television.

    decivex ,

    Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations

    michaelgemar ,
    @michaelgemar@mstdn.ca avatar

    @Blamemeta Have you actually seen Star Trek?

    Blamemeta ,

    Yeah? Ive seen all of TNG and DS9, and Voy. Ive seen most of Enterprise too. I gave Picard 3 episodes before before I wrote off nutrek.

    (My favorite episode is outrageaos okana, and I love quarks episodes)

    michaelgemar ,
    @michaelgemar@mstdn.ca avatar

    @Blamemeta TOS, and Roddenberry’s original vision, was all about diversity/inclusivity.

    Blamemeta ,

    Thats not the issue. The issue is its diversity and inclusivity first.

    michaelgemar ,
    @michaelgemar@mstdn.ca avatar

    @Blamemeta Yes, that’s TOS.

    Blamemeta ,

    Ok, and I haven’t watched TOS.

    Uranium3006 ,
    @Uranium3006@kbin.social avatar

    the sexism aged poorly, but it wasn't any worse than anything else on TV at the time, or indeed society

    michaelgemar ,
    @michaelgemar@mstdn.ca avatar

    @Uranium3006 @startrek Arguably the original vision was far less sexist, with a female second in command (which the network quashed). Even having a female as part of the bridge crew was ahead of its time.

    UrbanEdm ,
    @UrbanEdm@mstdn.ca avatar

    @michaelgemar @Uranium3006 @startrek Solve of the dialogue in The Cage was about how weird it was to have a woman in that position, suggesting the writers had difficulty thinking of that as commonplace, even hundreds of years in the future.

    My impression is that TOS writers were very aware of social injustice existing, but completely oblivious to how they themselves had absorbed those prejudices. I don't think that going with the original bridge crew would have changed that.

    Benfell ,
    @Benfell@hcommons.social avatar

    @UrbanEdm @michaelgemar @Uranium3006 @startrek

    For what it’s worth, was made in the 1960s. The women’s liberation movement didn’t really seem to take off until the 1970s.

    You’ll find more than a few sexist relics in almost any medium of the era, as the challenge to sexism had yet to find her voice.

    astronaut_sloth ,
    @astronaut_sloth@mander.xyz avatar

    I agree with you…to a point. Story should come first, but if a story fails the Blechdel Test, there should be a good, defensible reason for it, and there are good reasons to fail the test, e.g. a story takes place exclusively on a Royal Navy ship circa 1800; there were no women there, so it wouldn’t make sense to pass. I’ll buy it.

    In Star Trek though, there are fewer defensible reasons because of the nature of the show. Off the top of my head, “Measure of a Man” could have Capt. Louvois discussing Android rights with Dr. Pulaski (without mentioning Data) or Troi expressing to Guinan how upsetting it is that these trials are necessary. Does the lack of a scene like that make the episode bad? No. It starts a discussion, though, which is the primary purpose of the test to begin with. In the case of “Measure of a Man,” a scene like that would have probably been left on the cutting room floor to make way for a tighter story that just happened to not have women at the center of it.

    Also, reasonable people can disagree on how important a particular scene could be, but the discussion of female representation is still an important one. The goal isn’t to “pass” the test for everything, but there shouldn’t be an overwhelming amount of failures of the test.

    PapaEmeritusIII ,
    @PapaEmeritusIII@hexbear.net avatar

    The test was never meant to be a metric for whether something is good or not. It’s meant to be a metric for representation of women in media.

    The test is based on this 1985 comic from Alison Bechdel’s “Dykes to Watch Out For”:

    https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/9fe9212e-b24f-4fec-8960-5ed1b73bf233.jpeg

    With that history in mind, I don’t think the fact that lesbian porn passes is a shortfall of the test. The test was created by lesbians, after all.

    decivex ,

    The Bechdel test doesn’t tell you if something is ‘good’ or not, you mainly use it to identify trends in media overal. The fact that voyager predictably scored highest is, to me, a sign that it does measure something real, which I’d consider to be a hallmark of what a good metric is supposed to do.

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