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BearWolf ,

Wow even more Russian Soviet KGB dezinformatsiya. Capitalism is the best system the planet has ever seen. It ensures freedom and a just division of resources. Or would you rather than your sustenance depends on some commisar? Better make sure to magnify and sanctify the holy name of Stalin – or else!

In the US, you are free (it’s called right to work, sweaty!) to join and leave any company at any time. Whereas if comrade Stalin had his way, you’d be shipped off to Siberia to work a in a munitions factory while starving.

danque ,
@danque@lemmy.world avatar

You’re missing the point.

BearWolf ,

Go back your Russian Soviet KGB troll hole! Capitalism is the best! I am a capitalist every day!

ProdigalFrog OP ,
@ProdigalFrog@slrpnk.net avatar

Out of curiosity, what is your opinion on worker owned cooperatives within a capitalist society?

Bruno_Myers ,
@Bruno_Myers@lemmy.world avatar

i don’t think he knows how to spell cooperative, let alone what it is

unfreeradical ,
@unfreeradical@lemmy.world avatar

I suppose it’s a good thing capitalism has given us spell check, because, you know… innovation!

BearWolf ,

If it worked, we’d see more of it. But I have nothing against it why would I? Anyone can be an owner in capitalism.

ProdigalFrog OP ,
@ProdigalFrog@slrpnk.net avatar

Do you feel like consolidation is an issue?

BearWolf ,

Capitalism is a system that lets anyone succeed. So perhaps there aren’t that many workers cöoperatives because most working class individuals are simply unfit for leadership positions.

I mean you can’t really expect someone whose job is to wait tables to know how to properly run a restaurant. It takes someone who understands systems and most people don’t.

But you know what. Even the poor have fridges and cars in the USA. Hardly could say the same about North Korea.

ProdigalFrog OP ,
@ProdigalFrog@slrpnk.net avatar

So perhaps there aren’t that many workers cöoperatives because most working class individuals are simply unfit for leadership positions.

I mean you can’t really expect someone whose job is to wait tables to know how to properly run a restaurant. It takes someone who understands systems and most people don’t.

Huh? How does being a cooperative preclude those businesses from having capable people in leadership positions? The only difference between a regular business and a coop is that generally coops will vote on who is in that leadership position, and they don’t over-value that leadership position, unlike most CEO’s which take an unjustifiable amount of money for the amount of actual work they contribute to the business.

How does North Korea, an authoritarian and decidedly not socialistic state (the workers do not own the factories in North Korea, the State does, which is bad) relate to any of this?

An unfortunate amount of the poor in the USA become homeless, which takes away access to cars and fridges.

Nahlej ,

By “just division of resources” are you referring to the monstrous and ever growing wage and wealth inequality gap? I’m not sure how you consider that to be a “just” system.

BearWolf ,

Everyone gets according to their contribution. That’s something communism and capitalism actually have in common. However capitalism takes into account uniqueness, results, and innovation. In communism you get rewarded just for doing something. No matter how shitty the thing is, no matter how lazy you are.

In capitalism you get according to how critical and innovative your thing is. So yeah, most people aren’t very critical or innovative. So why would they get much?

Oh, you can scan groceries or flip burgers — you should be able to buy an apartment in a large urban city. Doesn’t that strike you as a bit silly?

Also, we need wealth gaps so that people would be motivated to invest and grind and strive.

unfreeradical ,
@unfreeradical@lemmy.world avatar

Communism simply represents any societal system of workers directly controlling enterprise, instead of its being controlled by private owners.

When enterprise is privately controlled, wage remuneration to workers is resolved entirely by the profit motive of private owners.

The employment relationship carries no deeper motive or essential virtue, as you have suggested. It embodies no natural directionality that “takes into account uniqueness, results, and innovation”.

Under private enterprise, all is subsumed under profit, and all that is not profitable is discarded.

When workers control enterprise, they may distribute the value of their product however they choose. No power prevents them from ascribing value to the attributes you have identified as meaningful.

Nahlej ,

What world are you living in? If capitalism rewarded people for how critical their jobs actually were, teachers wouldn’t be making minimum wage and needing to take multiple jobs to make ends meet. And according to COVID, delivery workers, supermarket employees, restaurant workers, etc, would all be rich seeing as they were deemed essential workers. Pretty sure there weren’t any CEOs deemed essential workers.

Are you trying to say that you are ok with people working a full time job and not being able to afford to live in the place where they work? It strikes me as a bit silly that you expect people to still do those jobs if it doesn’t pay enough to make it worth it. The real fault lies in the companies and corporations taking in record profits but “can’t afford” to increase wages because it’ll cut into their margins by .01%.

Wealth gaps do not motivate anyone to grind and investing money you can’t spare is not a feasible option to escape poverty.

The American Dream where all you needed was hard work and determination and you could buy a house, support your family, and live well, is dead. There are families with 2 adults working 2 or 3 jobs that still need financial assistance in order to afford food or rent. They’re definitely on the grind but that doesn’t work anymore. Now people grind just to survive while the wealthy do nothing and watch their bank accounts overflow.

The difference between the reality now and 30 years ago is the corporations got greedier and focused their energy on squeezing every cent they could out of their workers and their customers to live their own pockets. This is the reality of unregulated capitalism. It’s a fight for the bottom in terms of quality and a race to the top in regards to prices. The only thing that matters is profit above all else.

In this system, the rich control the “capitalism” and choose who the “rewards” go to. Profits go way up and CEO pay has increased 400% while the worker’s wages have remained the same. They’re doing stock buy backs and lining their own pockets while their employees need second jobs and food stamps to live.

You’re defending a system that constantly looks for new ways to fuck you over if it makes an extra penny. You need to reevaluate your whole schema

BearWolf ,

None of those workers are really grinding. They come from work and what do they do? They stuff their face with fast food and watch Netflix.

Why not read self help books, hit the gym, start a side hustle? With the savings from not paying for Netflix and eating avocado toast you can buy crypto! The grind is 24/7 my dude. I’m sorry but the majority of people are simply not ambitious enough. Those who rise early and work 24/7 on self betterment are rich. That’s the difference between a CEO and a teacher.

Nahlej ,

Ah ok. You’re just a troll. Nevermind.

BearWolf ,

I don’t see how it’s trolling to point out that rich and successful people are just built different. They are superior so they should get more stuff.

Honestly all the haters and losers (sad!) should be lucky they’re not living in any other era of humanity. 500 years ago they’d be subsistence farmers but now they can order food through their phones.

Capitalism did that!

TheSanSabaSongbird ,

You obviously know nothing about Bukowski. Whatever Lemmy may think of it, the above quote wasn’t intended as a political statement.

BearWolf ,

I know he was a Russsian Soviet KGB dezinformatsiya and provokatsiya agent. I mean it’s right there in the name. You’re not fooling anyone “Charles.”

unfreeradical ,
@unfreeradical@lemmy.world avatar

Your representation of historical associations is obviously being deeply corrupted in order for you to construct a distorted narrative.

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