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iceonfire1 ,

I have no problem with these terms. Toxic masculinity is a descriptive term for a harmful set of behaviors. It’s good to have descriptive terms. Someone who generalizes “toxic masculinity” to all male behavior is just wrong, and would be with or without the term.

Connecting the term “patriarchy” to the double standards you listed seems unnatural. Perhaps your circle uses double standards to describe male/female oppression; in such a case, I agree that that should change and I hope it does for you.

Feminism is about achieving gender equality by advancing women’s rights. So yes, there is a good reason for the “fem” part of the word and it’s probably not truly egalitarian.

Men suffer from discrimination and gendered role enforcement too, but while feminists may be sympathetic (they are fighting many of the same gendered problems) “feminism” is not a men’s lib/men’s rights movement. There are plenty of reasons for men to be feminists, though. Biased gender roles cause harm to both men and women.

Spectrum8044 ,

Feminism is about achieving gender equality by advancing women’s rights.

Thank you for this succinct definition. Many male advocates are confronted with feminists claiming that they have everything it takes to solve men's problems too - but all in good time. Men need to accept that this is never going to happen before we can begin to build change.

Dienervent OP ,

I have no problem with these terms. Toxic masculinity is a descriptive term for a harmful set of behaviors. It’s good to have descriptive terms.

Ok so it doesn't bother you... Who cares? It bothers ME and many other men. For comparison, the N-word doesn't really bother me personally in of itself. But I don't use it, I wouldn't tolerate anyone else using it in my presence because I know how much it bothers other people and what it means to them.

When it comes to "Toxic Masculinity". I personally find this terminology EXTREMELY insulting, reductive and I think it's harmful to the general gender discourse. If you have any empathy in you, I'd like you to consider trying to use alternatives. And I'm far from the only one who feels this way. Seriously, I find that terminology truly disgusting.

Someone who generalizes “toxic masculinity” to all male behavior is just wrong, and would be with or without the term.

Yes, and that's another huge problem. People get things wrong all the time. And in this case it can actually be quite harmful. All I'm asking is that you use less pejorative terminology.

And one of the weirdest thing with this one is the irony.

So I just did a web search for what is toxic masculinity. According to that page, one of the defining traits is this one:

Antifeminity: This involves the idea that men should reject anything that is considered to be feminine, such as showing emotion or accepting help.

Men in general will be averse to expressing their concerns because they're worried it will make them appear weak, emotional or feminine.

That's why it's so important for those of us engaged in the gender discourse to choose our terminology in an empathic and considerate manner.

It’s good to have descriptive terms.

And that is also my point. "Toxic" is not descriptive. Go search online for the word and I guarantee you that you'll find a ton of stuff trying to sell you useless things an mischaracterizing how bad the thing they're trying to "cure" really is and mischaracterizing in what way that thing is bad.

"Toxic Masculinity" is ripe for misinterpretation and I would never qualify it as being "descriptive".

Harmful gender expectations is descriptive. It's true that it may not be appropriate for all circumstances where someone might use "Toxic Masculinity" and that's a good thing. It's because it actually is a descriptive term, whereas "Toxic Masculinity" is kinda of an amorphous catch all term. It is not descriptive.

To put it in a different context. Let's say someone mentions "The problem of lazy Mexicans". And I tell him, please don't say that: it's racist. And the guy replies:

You misunderstood me. I was in no way implying that Mexicans are lazy. I was talking about a very well researched phenomenon that due to a combination of cultural and climate influences many Mexicans find themselves adopting a set of counterproductive behaviors. There is ample research on this and what steps can be taken to go from a lazy Mexican to a prosperous Mexican.

Unfortunately, changing habits and long held traditions is psychologically difficult to accept even when the benefits are so clear. This is why so many Mexicans seem to be focusing on the terminology instead of the actual discourse as some kind of ego defense mechanism.

Other than those reactionary Mexicans no one interprets it this way. So we're not going to start rewriting all of our literature just for this.

iceonfire1 ,

Thanks for the response.

I have no wish to hurt your feelings. Much the opposite, people should absolutely support each other. However, I think you may be projecting some negativity that you experienced onto these terms. The language isn’t the problem, it’s the context.

You say to use “harmful” instead of toxic, because “harmful” isn’t descriptive. The words are synonyms, friend.

You say “gender expectations” is somehow better defined than “masculinity”? I’m sorry, but these refer to totally different things and “gender” is obviously less specific than “masculine”. You literally just posted part of a definition for “toxic masculinity” yourself, showing that it is a well-defined term.

I think you are saying that you feel “toxic masculinity” confers a negative feeling about masculinity in general. I disagree. It refers to specific, harmful behaviors that are only associated with masculinity by mistake.

Unfortunately, there is a danger to dropping these terms as you suggest. The danger is that the related problems are not discussed.

Lastly, I will say that in your example well-researched racism still very much counts as racism. Please do not think that this kind of example encourages people to discuss with you. It does not.

Spectrum8044 , (edited )

there is a danger to dropping these terms as you suggest. The danger is that the related problems are not discussed.

The problems are only being discussed now because it was finally realised that men's gender expectations are negatively affecting women.

The men's movements of the 80s and 90s (which originally coined the term TM) already worked out that men suffer under harmful gender expectations. Nobody gave a crap. Here we are, 35-40 years later, and we only give a crap because of .

a-man-from-earth ,
@a-man-from-earth@kbin.social avatar

It is most often used as a blunt weapon to strike at men with. That is the bigotry we object to.

phoenician_anarchist ,

Toxic masculinity is a descriptive term for a harmful set of behaviors.

Most of which have very little (if anything) to do with masculinity. The way people generalise the term to mean any/all male behaviour is not a mistake.

Feminism is about achieving gender equality by advancing women’s rights.

This only makes sense on the presumption that women are unilaterally lacking in rights. If men were lacking a certain right, advocating for women's rights would not achieve any kind of equality.

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