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MxM111 ,
@MxM111@kbin.social avatar

So, Elon Musk is then working class too.

iknowitwheniseeit ,

I don’t understand. He owns huge amounts of capital. In what sense is he working class?

MxM111 ,
@MxM111@kbin.social avatar

In a sense that he is working?

Prunebutt ,

Not according to the definition:

If you need to work to exist, you are working class.

Ensign_Crab ,

You seem to have confused “paying people to work for you” with “working.”

jose1324 ,

If snorting coke is working then yes

Killing_Spark ,

No. He could drop working and have a comfortable life. The owning class chooses to work as a way to excert power and accumulate even more wealth

MxM111 ,
@MxM111@kbin.social avatar

A lot of people in upper middle class choose to work to accumulate more wealth. And “as a way to exert power” is may be true for some, but not for all of them.

Prunebutt ,

A lot of people in upper middle class choose to work to accumulate more wealth.

Then they’re the owning class. The middle class has no coherent definition AFAIK.

And “as a way to exert power” is may be true for some, but not for all of them.

It’s probably true for most of them. Accumulating more wealth to buy a house to rent out counts as accumulating power to exert it as a rent-seeker.

Fal ,
@Fal@yiffit.net avatar

This is a really stupid distinction to take a stand on. There’s no single line where, once you cross, you “no longer need to work”. Someone making high 6 figures a year is clearly not in the same situation as someone who has multiple billions, and they’re clearly not the same situation as someone working minimum wage. That’s exactly why the middle class definition is important and meaningful

Prunebutt ,

This is a really stupid distinction to take a stand on.

I’d like to politely ask you to cut out the insults.

There’s no single line where, once you cross, you “no longer need to work”.

That’s the thing about classification: It doesn’t respect the edges, where it’s pretty much always getting fuzzy.

Someone making high 6 figures a year is clearly not in the same situation as someone who has multiple billions, and they’re clearly not the same situation as someone working minimum wage.

Here, it gets complicated: Since it’s highly incentivised by capitalism to invest your capital, most “upper middle class” people don’t actually have all that money sitting in a bank somewhere. It’s usually invested somewhere which makes them (partial) rent-seekers and extractors of other people’s surplus value. This is where the edges get fuzzy.

However, adding a cathegory of middle class, while vaguely pointing in a general socio-economic direction isn’t helpful for discussions about capitalism. The broad strokes of capitalist and wage-dependent class still stands. And adding further distinctions could help understanding a more gomplex model. But it’s never used this way. Whenever you hear someone talk about some “middle class”, 80% of the time, it’s about populism and not about some deeper economic analysis. And if it’s used for populism, it’s always used to divide the wage-dependant/working class.

That’s exactly why the middle class definition is important and meaningful

Can you give a coherent definition of middle class? I’-e never come across one that makes sense.

Fal ,
@Fal@yiffit.net avatar

Can you give a coherent definition of middle class? I’-e never come across one that makes sense.

It’s someone for whom money isn’t a daily concern, but is still a resource that can run out. They might have to plan for their yearly vacation, or have to discuss the next car purchase, but wouldn’t have a problem buying things or eating out. If you’re looking for a more specific definition of “makes below $$$” then you’re not going to get it, because that’s not how any of this works.

Since it’s highly incentivised by capitalism to invest your capital, most “upper middle class” people don’t actually have all that money sitting in a bank somewhere. It’s usually invested somewhere which makes them (partial) rent-seekers and extractors of other people’s surplus value.

This is why you people will never actually get anything useful accomplished in society. You’re so intent on fighting against human nature, and playing victim of “exploited surplus labor value” that you simply can’t understand that there IS value in capital investment risk. It’s simply not the case that 1 unit of labor = 1 unit of money.

Prunebutt ,

So you admit that you don’t have an accurate definition. That’s a shame.

that’s not how any of this works.

I beg to differ. The whole concept o class analysis doesn’t make any sense, if you have these wobbly definitions of classes.

This is why you people will never actually get anything useful accomplished in society.

Lol. Please read a history book.

You’re so intent on fighting against human nature

I think I have a more thorough grasp on “human nature” than you do. That’s the whole deal of anarchists (Kropotkin, Graeber, Bookchin, …).

Capitalists don’t take investment risks anymore. Surplus value is a model that’s used to describe a system. I don’t make the mistake or confusing the model with reality.

Fal ,
@Fal@yiffit.net avatar

So you admit that you don’t have an accurate definition. That’s a shame.

This is the exact same stupid argument that conservatives use when the answer to “what is a woman” is “it’s complicated”. Some things don’t have neat, concise, 1 sentence definitions

The rest of your post is not really a response to anything I wrote. I have read plenty of history books. And you saying capitalists don’t take investment risk is just baffling tbh

Prunebutt , (edited )

This is the exact same stupid argument that conservatives use when the answer to “what is a woman” is “it’s complicated”.

Apples and oranges. We’re doing class analysis here, not gender studies. The former is an exercise in modelling, the latter describes complex societal distributed systems.

The rest of your post is not really a response to anything I wrote.

I have written that you’ve got a wrong grasp on class analysis. You’ve not demonstrated that you’ve understood class analysis.

And you saying capitalists don’t take investment risk is just baffling tbh

As soon as you got your first billion, you pretty @uch can’t lose it anymore on the market. Look at Musk, Bezos, Zuckerberg, etc. And they haven’t even invested their own capital to grow their empires. Entrepreneurial risks my ass.

Edit: I just realized how you just tried to weazel out of the discussion. You’ve brought up “human nature” and I refuted your argument. Claiming I didn’t doesn’t make you less wrong about human nature.

And “people like me” never getting anything done: There have been countless liberatory revolutions in history. Apparently, all the boks you’ve supposedly read left that bit out.

Fal ,
@Fal@yiffit.net avatar

As soon as you got your first billion, you pretty @uch can’t lose it anymore on the market.

We not talking about billionaires. That’s the whole point. You’re so focused on “class analysis” and fitting into your predefined terms that you can’t even see that the whole point of the discussion is that there’s not a clear delineation between classes, which is precisely why “middle class” is important.

You’ve brought up “human nature” and I refuted your argument

In what way have you refuted anything?

Prunebutt , (edited )

We not talking about billionaires.

U sure?

there’s not a clear delineation between classes

Yes, there is. Working class, owning class. If there’s not a clear delineation between classes, your definitions are whack.

In what way have you refuted anything?

By bringing up Bookchin, Graeber and Kropotkin. More of a statement that you’ve actually made about human nature.

If you disagree, then please elaborate why “people like [me]” don’t understand human nature.

MxM111 ,
@MxM111@kbin.social avatar

Do you have money in the bank? That brings you some rate? Then by your definition you are “speaking to exert power”

Prunebutt ,

Are you telling me that I’m not dependant on my wage?

MxM111 ,
@MxM111@kbin.social avatar

No, I am saying that if you have money in the bank, then according to your logic you are “exerting power” the same way as your have accused rich people do.

The main point I am trying to make that if you say that you divide people on working and not, then Elon Musk fits working category.

Just because he does not have to work, but he still does, speaks only positively about him.

Prunebutt ,

if you have money in the bank, then according to your logic you are “exerting power”

Yeah, I kind of do. If the bank I deposit my money at, gives loans out to weapons companies, then the money that gts made by war pays my interest. However: I don’t really have a choice if I want to survive after having retired. Also: if you look at wealth distribution, then the comparison gets more and more ridiculous.

if you say that you divide people on working and not, then Elon Musk fits working category.

Good thing that’s not what I’m doing. The “working class” is the set of people who have nothing to sell, but their labour to survive. Here’s a great channel which explains why this distinction is important

Just because he does not have to work, but he still does, speaks only positively about him.

Tha only tracks if A) work is inherently good, or B) the work he’s doing is actually beneficial (considered that he actually works). I don’t agree with both (or ever all three) points.

MxM111 ,
@MxM111@kbin.social avatar

However: I don’t really have a choice if I want to survive after having retired.

Yes you do. Cash, gold, bitcoins...

The “working class” is the set of people who have nothing to sell, but their labour to survive.

As with any such definitions, there are gradations. Plus you will not die if you stop working, you will just live very poor.

Tha only tracks if A) work is inherently good, or B) the work he’s doing is actually beneficial (considered that he actually works). I don’t agree with both (or ever all three) points.

That can be said about any work.

Prunebutt ,

Yes you do. Cash, gold, bitcoins…

Lol

As with any such definitions, there are gradations

Even if: Elon Musk would be so far on the not-working-class end of the spectrum.

you will not die if you stop working, you will just live very poor.

lol, u fr?

That can be said about any work.

Yes. I’m not making moral statements. I’m just stating what’s the “working class”.

Killing_Spark ,

If living off of your assets without working is possible to you you are not working class. It’s that simple.

Fal ,
@Fal@yiffit.net avatar

So what’s “possible”? You mean could they take a 1/50th pay cut and survive on like 30k a year from their investments? Possibly. That certainly doesn’t make them “owning class” though

Honytawk ,

No what makes them owning class is because they own their means of income, they don’t have to work for it.

Fal ,
@Fal@yiffit.net avatar

So what about people who have some investments but also still have to work? Or whose standard of living would seriously decline if they did not work?

Honytawk ,

Those are trans owners.

meekah ,
@meekah@lemmy.world avatar

Did you really just call the richtest man in the world upper middle class?

mods_are_assholes ,

I think they are outrage trolling, a common pastime for muskrat groupies. It will significantly improve your internet experience if you just block all of them.

stoy ,

lol

Duke_Nukem_1990 ,

Shitposting to the echo chamber you bought isn’t work.

mods_are_assholes ,

There should be some kind of intelligence test before people are allowed to use the internet. It would keep stupid shit like this from spreading.

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