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charles ,

Far be it from me to defend YouTube “prank” creators, but for all people talk about “responsible gun ownership”, this person was clearly not responsible and should be forever prohibited from owning a gun. If you were in no way touched or threatened, how the fuck can you justify discharging your firearm in a public place?

notnotmike ,
@notnotmike@programming.dev avatar

I first heard this trial while I was still on reddit and I was sickened by the comments there. Most people seemed to feel that the shooting was fully justified and that they’d wish the shot had been fatal. A site that claimed to be progressive was openly arguing for escalation and killing. Just because the person is a shitty prankster.

Of course, I don’t know the full details of the case, but I find it so difficult to sympathize with the shooter here. They had options, but instead chose to pick the deadly last resort. They could have run or even pulled out the gun as a deterrent if they were really desperate, but instead jumped to lethal measures.

MossyFeathers ,

even pulled out the gun as a deterrent

Afaik that’s actually illegal. You don’t brandish a firearm unless you’re ready to shoot someone. Additionally, I’d highly recommend looking more into the case. The short of it is that their “prank” was shoving a phone into his face that played, “hey dipshit, stop thinking about my twinkle” repeatedly. He told them to stop repeatedly and tried to push the phone away, but they continued to push it into his face.

Furthermore, keep in mind that the US is going fucking insane. We have public demonstrations by neo-nazis. The KKK’s membership is increasing and klansmen have been seen waving their membership cards at pride parades. Now, I don’t really know what was going through the shooter’s head, but personally? Personally I wouldn’t roll the dice and bet that someone who’s shoved a phone into my face saying, “stop thinking about my twinkle” and won’t back off when I tell them to isn’t about to murder me because they think I’m gay.

jarfil ,
@jarfil@beehaw.org avatar

Pulling a gun as a deterrent, would be “threatening with the use of deadly force”… which could be legal if you were being equally “threatened with the use of deadly force” against you.

someone who’s shoved a phone into my face saying, “stop thinking about my twinkle” and won’t back off when I tell them to isn’t about to murder me because they think I’m gay.

IANAL, but I think… that would require a jury to decide. If you (or rather your lawyer) convinced them that you saw it as being threatened with the use of deadly force, then brandishing a weapon as a response could possibly be seen as fair and legal.

notnotmike ,
@notnotmike@programming.dev avatar

Plus, I doubt two things:

  1. I don’t think U.S. Justice system would prefer you to shoot people over a non-violent result
  2. I don’t think the victim went through the mental process of “I’ll get in more trouble if I don’t shoot this guy, so I’d better just ice him”

Victim had a gun and so their first idea was to use the gun

enki ,

If the report is accurate, there’s absolutely no way a reasonable person could see that level of force as justifiable. You walk the fuck away, you go to security, or if none of that works, you call the cops. Imagine thinking that possibly taking someone’s life is a reasonable response to them waving a phone in your face and making pretty soft insults.

jeremy_sylvis ,
@jeremy_sylvis@midwest.social avatar

The person was attempting to walk away and was repeatedly headed off by the friend of the assualter, per the trial.

Imagine assuming the worst of a victim and blaming them.

enki ,

He’s not a victim, he’s a snowflake that responded to someone being an asshole with deadly force. His life was never in danger. If you believe this was justifiable self-defense, you’re a fucking sociopath.

jeremy_sylvis ,
@jeremy_sylvis@midwest.social avatar

Yikes, dude.

At this point you’re just repeating yourself with additional hyperbole and insult; it looks like we’re done here.

enki ,

Spare me the fake offense. I’d wager my house that if this didn’t involve a gun, and this dipshit prankster posted a video of him harassing this guy and the guy getting upset, you’d be calling the shooter a pussy and laughing at him. But the second a gun is involved the 2A jerkoffs begin Olympic level mental gymnastics to justify the most ridiculous bullshit. Miss me with your bad faith bullshit.

MossyFeathers ,

If you were in no way touched or threatened, how the fuck can you justify discharging your firearm in a public place?

U fukken wot M8? He shoved a phone into the guy’s face that repeated the phrase, “Hey dipshit, quit thinking about my twinkle” and when the guy told him to stop, repeatedly and tried to push the phone away, the guy kept egging him on. That’s a threat at that point. If someone is making you feel like you might be in danger, that’s a threat. It doesn’t matter their intent, if they’re making you feel threatened, then they are threatening you.

He was carrying a gun because he’d read about delivery drivers getting robbed, and even if that wasn’t why he was carrying a gun, I’d still be on his side. Someone who’s planning to jump you isn’t going to be nice and spell it out for you. Combine that with an insane rise in anti-lgbt violence and a phone shoved in your face playing, “quit thinking about my twinkle” and I’d 100% believe that I might be about to get killed by some neo-nazi bigot because they’ve decided I’m gay and need to be “taught a lesson”. And yeah it was in public, but considering neo-nazis in the US have been holding public demonstrations recently, the last thing I’d want to do is bet on them not having the balls to murder me in public.

Is that what was going through his head before he shot the guy? No idea, but sorry, the US has gone completely fucking nuts and there are too many assholes with murderous intent to be willing to roll the dice when someone gets in my face and won’t fuck off. They had plenty of chances to disengage and decided not to. If they’d stopped when he said, “stop” then I’d be a lot more sympathetic; but they didn’t. They kept pushing.

jarfil ,
@jarfil@beehaw.org avatar

If they’d stopped when he said, “stop” then I’d be a lot more sympathetic

The prank guy got what he was looking for… but there is a problem: they were not out in the desert, they were inside a mall full of other people. You shouldn’t go “pew-pew” when every shot you miss can hit an innocent bystander.

Heck, even a shot that you don’t miss, can go all the way through and hit someone totally innocent on the other side.

jeremy_sylvis ,
@jeremy_sylvis@midwest.social avatar

You shouldn’t go “pew-pew” when every shot you miss can hit an innocent bystander.

Heck, even a shot that you don’t miss, can go all the way through and hit someone totally innocent on the other side.

You seem like someone who has absolutely no understanding of firearms and ballistics.

Assuming one follows the rules of firearm safety, including know your target and what is beyond your target, there’s no risk to bystanders. This person was clearly not firing wildly. This was a 9mm from a short barrel - there’s no real danger of over penetration.

Your fearmongering is ridiculous.

MySNsucks923 ,

9mm can penetrate well into human flesh and beyond, there is a always a risk of that bullet flying out and hitting someone else which I highly doubt this guy took into consideration in the moment.
Nevertheless, I agree with the charges. Not guilty for defending himself but guilty of firing in an occupied dwelling.

jeremy_sylvis ,
@jeremy_sylvis@midwest.social avatar

9mm can penetrate well into human flesh and beyond

So can .22lr - that didn’t mean it’s probable or likely. Even FMJ aren’t likely to over-penetration a center mass hit, and once more, so long as one is observing the rules of firearm safety, even over-penetration is meaningless.

Given the restraint shown, I have no reason to doubt the person took this into consideration.

MySNsucks923 ,

It’s both very probably and likely. Watch some penetration tests on YouTube and see that 9mm has plenty of energy to rush through someone and continue going. This is true for 9mm FMJ and hollow points.

jeremy_sylvis ,
@jeremy_sylvis@midwest.social avatar

I’m well aware of the ballistics; that over-penetration depends on incredible assumptions. Try the ballistic dummy tests for a better representation as the factor in the bone. The human body is more than gelatin.

And no, this is not true for hollow points.

MySNsucks923 ,

I suggest you watch some videos because you’re wrong. Garand thumb has a great video that shows exactly what we’re talking about and all of the 9mm rounds went through the ballistic dummies including through bone and continued past its target.

jeremy_sylvis ,
@jeremy_sylvis@midwest.social avatar

I have to suggest you take your own advice and, once more, highlight the absurdity of your position in baseless “lol no ur wrong”.

You’re right that Garand Thumb has great videos. You’re wrong that FMJ universally goes through human-form ballistic dummies. It can, sure. Is guaranteed to? Far from it. You seem to be pointedly ignoring the assumptions necessary for you to make such a ridiculous generalization.

Edit: had you mixed up with a troll; removed the irrelevant parts.

MySNsucks923 ,

Lmao. Ok dude. I can’t take you seriously. I provided a source for my claims and they completely contradict what you’re claiming. You’ve yet to provide any proof for your position. I’m going to assume you’re trolling at this point.

jeremy_sylvis ,
@jeremy_sylvis@midwest.social avatar

Considering your “source” is “trust me bro Garand Thumb showed it bro”, I’ll give your trolling concerns due consideration.

ericjmorey ,

It’s illegal to fire a gun in a mall for good reason. The man was found guilty of doing exactly that.

jeremy_sylvis ,
@jeremy_sylvis@midwest.social avatar

That guilty verdict has been set aside until a hearing to discuss it on October 19.

We shall see.

enki ,

As a lifelong gun owner, you clearly have no understanding of how firearms work and should probably seek out a firearm safety course if you own guns. Please stop spreading dangerous misinformation about firearms. The shit that just came out of your mouth would never be said by a responsible gun owner.

A responsible gun owner always errs on the side of caution. They know that discharging their weapon is an absolute last resort. They also know how loud a 9mm is when fired in an enclosed space, and that even if miraculously in a shopping mall there was no one down range of his shot, it very likely damaged the hearing of nearby bystanders.

jeremy_sylvis ,
@jeremy_sylvis@midwest.social avatar

Ah, the as an [x] / how do you do, fellow kids trope.

As a lifelong gun owner, you clearly have no understanding of how firearms work and should probably seek out a firearm safety course if you own guns. Please stop spreading dangerous misinformation about firearms. The shit that just came out of your mouth would never be said by a responsible gun owner.

Given my direct reference to one of the rules of firearm safety - one which agrees with your point of err on the side of caution - I’m interested in how you jump from erring on the side of caution to criticizing a victim for erring on the side of caution in defending themselves.

Feel free to highlight how anything here - in this individual’s situation or otherwise - is dangerous misinformation. Take all the time you need to support such a position.

A responsible gun owner always errs on the side of caution. They know that discharging their weapon is an absolute last resort.

And, as shown by both the video, the arguments in court, and the jury’s ruling, this person acted perfectly in-line with such. And, as highlighted, the individual gave due consideration to the shot taken.

They also know how loud a 9mm is when fired in an enclosed space, and that even if miraculously in a shopping mall there was no one down range of his shot, it very likely damaged the hearing of nearby bystanders.

Not likely. Here’s a breakdown on how decibel reduction applies over distance - start from the ~160db of 9mm out of a handgun and work down, then compare to the video.

You seem to be talking entirely to baseless hypotheticals, to the complete neglect of the situation at hand. This, entirely aside from quibbling about loud noises when one justifiably defends oneself complete with respect to duty to retreat.

Umbrias ,

A 9mm can over penetrate twelve drywall framed walls.

“If we assume there were no bystanders at risk, then clearly there were no bystanders at risk!”

You are saying absurd things. Follow the other commenters advice and seek a firearm safety course.

jeremy_sylvis ,
@jeremy_sylvis@midwest.social avatar

I wasn’t aware drywall is exactly identical to the human body. Could you highlight that reasoning?

You are saying absurd things.

And you are clearly projecting your ignorance of firearms and ballistics.

Umbrias ,

Im pointing out how absurd of a claim it is that small rounds run no risk of over penetration. Feel free to go find sources on no human over penetration, though you’ll find that even .22 pistols have been found to overpenetrate.

It’s funny how much of a thrashing you’re getting for spreading this misinformation. Hopefully you consider it before the next, or first, time you pick up a gun.

jeremy_sylvis ,
@jeremy_sylvis@midwest.social avatar

Im pointing out how absurd of a claim it is that small rounds run no risk of over penetration.

Oh, so you’re addressing something other than was actually stated?

You might want to revisit what I had actually said. Run no risk? Hardly.

It’s funny how much of a thrashing you’re getting for spreading this misinformation. Hopefully you consider it before the next, or first, time you pick up a gun.

I’m not sure I’d consider a handful of randos making absurd, baseless claims to be a thrashing - one could call it dogpiling, sure. Thrashing implies some sort of beatdown, though… and all you’ve brought is nonsense. If you’d been able to back up that misinformation nonsense in any way - say, by addressing and refuting points made - you may have had a point.

Umbrias ,

Your entire point is a circular justification of shooting a gun in a crowded mall being just fine actually. Lmao.

jeremy_sylvis ,
@jeremy_sylvis@midwest.social avatar

In the same sense that your response was in any way tied to anything stated, sure.

ericjmorey ,

He was found guilty of exactly the crime you’re concerned about for the exact reason you’re concerned about.

charles ,

So you agree he shouldn’t ever have a gun again, and probably shouldn’t have had one to begin with. Glad we got to the same result through a different path.

ram OP ,
@ram@bookwormstory.social avatar

Nobody should have a gun. Period.

charles ,

I’m with you, but if you say that on posts like this you get forever downvotes.

ram OP ,
@ram@bookwormstory.social avatar

I’m not scared of being downvoted for being right. Not like we have account-wide vote records anyways.

RickRussell_CA ,

If someone is making you feel like you might be in danger, that’s a threat. It doesn’t matter their intent

That’s a risible argument. The standard is what a “reasonable person” considers dangerous.

Whether an action is criminal can’t be based on each individual’s personal opinion of their own behavior. The perpetrator believing that they are right does not make it legal.

NovaPrime ,
@NovaPrime@lemmy.ml avatar

Yes, and in this case the jury decided that a reasonable person in like circumstances could have felt threatened to the point where they feared imminent bodily harm, thus justifying the self defense

interolivary , (edited )
@interolivary@beehaw.org avatar

the US has gone completely fucking nuts and there are too many assholes with murderous intent

You’re obviously one of them if you think this incident was worth murdering someone over

MossyFeathers , (edited )

I’m trans and living in the south. I have a very good reason to be afraid for my life. You’re looking at this with the benefit of hindsight. You know it was a harmless “”“prank”“” but can you really tell me that if someone came up to you looking like this (supposedly that’s a picture of them right before the shooting happened) and started harassing you without stopping when you try to push them away, that you wouldn’t be scared too?

He tried to disengage but they didn’t let him. That’s fucking terrifying when you don’t know what is going through the other person’s head.

Edit: to explain why me being trans is relevant: I’m putting myself in his shoes. I’m pretending I’m a delivery driver, I have a gun for self-defense, I show up to deliver something and two guys who are taller than I am start harassing me while playing a sound clip that mimics the kinds of phrases homophobes yell before beating the shit out of someone. You’re damn right I’m going to shoot them. I don’t know if they’re white supremacists or a dumbass “prank” YouTuber, but from my perspective, the risk is that if I guess wrong then I’ll probably be in the hospital with significant medical bills or dead.

SugarApplePie ,
@SugarApplePie@beehaw.org avatar

Comments about this case are always wild, you can tell what commenters are American from the argument always being the same gist of “People in America are crazy bro! I wouldn’t risk NOT shooting either”. This country is so fucked we have fast food delivery drivers carrying pistols on them for safety and unloading on some obnoxious asshole blaring stupid bullshit in their ear, and people will hear that and think “Honestly a very fair and measured response IMO”. Worse part is those comments aren’t even entirely wrong! We are NOT doing okay over here y’all lmao

If only incidents like this put a stop to all the annoying “pranks” on YouTube and the people that make bank off them. How many more moronic pranksters have to be seriously hurt before they realize they should stop, or at the very least stage the videos with some friends or some people you pay on Craigslist? It’s not like the 12 year olds watching are gonna be able to tell the difference anyways.

ram OP ,
@ram@bookwormstory.social avatar

In later interviews, this guy says he’s gonna keep doing these “pranks”. Getting shot won’t even stop him, so there’s no hope that it’d stop potential copycats.

SugarApplePie ,
@SugarApplePie@beehaw.org avatar

Well here’s hoping his last words aren’t “I mean, what are the odds it happens again?”

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