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Nahvi ,

Billionaires aren’t the ones that starve when the economy implodes.

This kind of rhetoric is what makes moderates ambivalent about unions. Sure we support your goals but the side-effects of that cure are ten times worse than the disease itself.

Glimpythegoblin ,

“moderates”

Nahvi ,

Yes, “moderates”.

Those of us who realize the building we all live in is old, has holes in the windows and floors, and never had an elevator installed, but would still prefer to renovate it than burn it down. Yes, we know some people are getting wet, or fell through the floor, and a few can’t even get to their rooms, but the majority of us are warm, well-fed, and mildly entertained. We definitely need to get the holes patched and we should work on some sort of lift, but burning the place down is not going to help those who are missing out now and will harm everyone else in the process.

Glimpythegoblin ,

Or you could build a new and better building instead of patching up poor construction.

Nahvi ,

Sure, if you can get most of the residents to agree on what kind of building they want the new one to be, you might even make it happen fairly smoothly.

As is, we have at least a half a dozen groups who each want different designs and the two largest groups aren’t even sure they want to live in the same building anymore. Those two groups have already started drawing lines down the middle of the current building and are demanding everyone pick a side. To make matters worse the other groups don’t agree with each other enough to even band together for their own defense. In the end, we will be lucky if we get a couple small condos where once a sky-rise stood.

sigmaklimgrindset ,
@sigmaklimgrindset@sopuli.xyz avatar

Bruh, in your analogy where are you getting the money and materials to patch up the building? It’s being hoarded by the guy that owns a giant state of the art mansion up the street that needs 0 repairs.

And that mansion has TWO elevators.

Nahvi ,

Fair question.

In my hastily put together analogy, the rich guy would live up on the top floor which he converted to a pent house, probably with a helicopter pad. That guy like in real life is going to try to squeeze the money out of the guys a few floors down from himself. If it actually comes to a building collapse or something catastrophic, he probably tries to escape to another building.

Really though, this analogy is probably stretched to its limit.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Why wouldn’t he escape before the building got that bad? Why wouldn’t he escape the first time someone fell through the floor?

Nahvi ,

Presumably their part of the building is holding up fine. We certainly aren’t seeing a lot of rich people flee the US so far.

Incidentally, not that it really matters, the holes in the floor were not meant to indicate the building itself was rotting away, just that the layers had worn through and need to be replaced. Basically everything after the first post has just been shoe-horned into the analogy on the fly.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

We certainly aren’t seeing a lot of rich people flee the US so far.

theguardian.com/…/why-silicon-valley-billionaires…

Nahvi ,

Interesting. New Zealand seems like an odd choice for a prepper bunker. I’m sure it is wonderful to live there now, but that seems irrelevant if civilization collapsed. I have been working under the assumption that there were billionaire bunkers littering the Rockies and Appalachians.

Personally, if I was a billionaire, I would go full Fallout and build several sustainable vaults of various kinds that could each hold enough people to rebuild the human race from. That and dump every spare dollar possible into an off-world colony.

Viking_Hippie ,

You know that they tear down dilapidated buildings with good reason, right? The foundation is crumbling, the floor won’t support weight and the roof is more leak than barrier.

Trying to apply repairs to a crumbling and unsafe building is actually a great analogy for how your “moderate” bullshit is keeping most of society in a death spiral. Nice self-own.

Nahvi ,

Even if we are approaching a point where a tear down would be more cost effective, we are not at a point where we can unite enough to rebuild anything from the rubble.

Maybe pushing it any farther is risking a collapse, but I rather like being one united nation sitting at the top of lists for economic and military power, rather than 3 or 4 smaller nations barely in the top 10.

Viking_Hippie , (edited )

We are way past the point where a tear down is necessary to save millions of lives, never mind “cost effective”.

sitting at the top of lists for economic and military power

You KNOW that all that economic power belongs to the rich and the rest are poorer than most western countries, right?

Also, celebrating military power as a virtue is some North Korea type shit, not something a modern democracy should be doing.

Nahvi ,

Military power is neither inherently virtue nor vice it is a tool that can be used for good or ill. However, without it the voice of a nation becomes smaller and smaller until it becomes non-existent without the support of others.

Viking_Hippie ,

Military power is neither inherently virtue nor vice

False. It’s an evil. Some would say a necessary evil, but that’s debatable.

without it the voice of a nation becomes smaller and smaller until it becomes non-existent

Bullshit. Organised murder isn’t free speech, nor does it protect free speech. It’s very often used to SUPPRESS free speech and democracy, though.

Nahvi ,

but that’s debatable.

Do you think Zelensky thinks military power is a useful tool? Do you think he and NATO are doing evil by defending Ukraine?

Putting my cards on the table; I am not the biggest fan of the US getting involved in another overseas war, even if it is only providing weapons. I am curious though how a defensive war fits into your “military power is evil” mindset.

Organised murder isn’t free speech

Having a military does not mean you have to participate in offensive wars.

Viking_Hippie , (edited )

Do you think Zelensky thinks military power is a useful tool?

I think the people of Ukraine would have found it useful for Putin to not use that “tool” against them.

But yeah, while I’m of course on his side with regards to the war itself, I also think that Zelinski is finding emergency war powers a very useful tool to suppress political opposition and otherwise further his own political power.

Do you think he and NATO are doing evil by defending Ukraine?

Of course not, but there’d be no invasion to defend against in the first place if not for the military power of genocidal war criminals like Putin

I am curious though how a defensive war fits into your “military power is evil” mindset.

As I pointed out above, it fits fine since there would be no necessity to defend yourself against military power if not attacked with military power.

Nahvi ,

there’d be no invasion to defend against in the first place if not for the military power of genocidal war criminals like Putin

I completely agree though with a caveat. I can’t imagine a just way we would completely eliminate people like Putin.

The only way I could imagine is becoming the most oppressive and dominating force and pointing our weapons at anyone that glances at other territories. Incidentally, I think this pretty much what we did for 40 years after the fall of the Soviet Union, which explains the era of relative peace we are coming out of. Not that there was ever true peace, but mostly the world powers only played their proxy war games in much smaller nations.

I also think that Zelinski is finding emergency war powers a very useful tool to suppress political opposition and otherwise further his own political power.

I have been noticing the same.

SmoothIsFast ,

I completely agree though with a caveat. I can’t imagine a just way we would completely eliminate people like Putin.

You institutionalize them instead of giving them the keys to castels. Vikings turned their psychopaths into their most vicious fighters and isolated them from the rest, we decided to put them into positions of power both goepolitically and economically, then glorified them and it’s now killing us. Before that psychopaths have been described and usually killed off on the spot. If we ever get to be a space fairing civilization it might be smart to utilize them as resource allocators on multi generation ships as their lack of empathy could actually benefit the survival of the whole in those situations but not when we allow them to use accumulation of wealth as their tool as it drains everyone’s resources.

Cryophilia ,

Before that psychopaths have been described and usually killed off on the spot.

What a naive misreading of history. What mythical era do you think this happened in?

SmoothIsFast ,

Are you stupid? You know The Unscrupulous Man described in Ancient Greece? Countless times throughout early history they are frequently described based on their personality types and ways to “deal” with them…

Cryophilia ,

Menelaus: “Am I a joke to you??”

Nahvi ,

That is a lot to unpack, but I think you definitely have a few good ideas.

as their lack of empathy could actually benefit the survival of the whole in those situations

This in particular is an interesting idea. Would be interesting to see what “good” a “psycopath” could do within certain limits.

SmoothIsFast ,

This in particular is an interesting idea. Would be interesting to see what “good” a “psycopath” could do within certain limits.

There are definitely many avenues in which they could excell at. I mean decisions which need complete objectivity maybe something they excell at consulting for where as if you allow them access to gaining unmitigated power your in for a bad time as we see today.

DessertStorms , (edited )
@DessertStorms@kbin.social avatar

There is no reforming capitalism, and by pretending there is (or that "the alternative" which you are clearly not even able to articulate, is worse) you are helping to maintain the status quo, at best.

https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/10/14/liberalism-and-fascism-partners-in-crime/

https://truthout.org/articles/fascism-is-possible-not-in-spite-of-liberal-capitalism-but-because-of-it/

https://nyanarchist.wordpress.com/2019/01/23/scratch-a-liberal-a-fascist-bleeds-how-the-so-called-middle-class-has-enabled-oppression-for-centuries/

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/08/22/american-democracy-was-never-designed-to-be-democratic-eric-holder-our-unfinished-march-nick-seabrook-one-person-one-vote-jacob-grumbach-laboratories-against-democracy

https://libcom.org/article/capitalist-democracy-illusion-choice

vivavideri ,

Billionaires? Starve?

gibmiser ,

War* is never worth it for the ones who die fighting it. That is why we honor them for their sacrifices.

*so long as the war is for a good cause.

Nahvi ,

As long as they chose to join the fight sure, but when you start dropping bombs in civilian areas it becomes harder and harder to justify that war.

ICastFist ,
@ICastFist@programming.dev avatar

Of course they don’t starve, they’re often the cause, or accessory to said implosions, and governments are all too happy to bail them out of their bullshit while telling people to suck it up and go back to work.

burntbutterbiscuits ,

You’re talking out of your ass.

75% of Americans support the UAW

Nahvi ,

Most Americans would like a cost-of living increase ourselves. It is easy to support the UAW when they are going for a goal we agree with; especially when it costs us nothing.

If the UAW intentionally makes that cost another economic recession/depression, we will see how strong that support is.

burntbutterbiscuits ,

You mean when the corporate executives hurt the economy. Get your head out of your ass

goferking0 ,

how dare the workers try to use their labor to survive, why won’t anyone think of the poor rich people who may lose some stock value

Nahvi ,

No I mean when the guy in the picture says, “we’re going to wreck their economy.”

If you don’t like his phrasing then it sounds like we agree.

burntbutterbiscuits ,

We agree that I can not tell if you are farting or if you are talking with your head very deeply lodged in between your buttocks.

Either way, very impressive

Nahvi ,

Interesting turn of phrase from someone who has had verbal diarrhea since they opened this post.

Seriously, reading the string of slurs you post is like reading a transcript of a 10 year old kid who just died in fortnight again.

burntbutterbiscuits ,

Funny thing is that you are the one with the verbal diarrhea.

All your old, tired,disproven, neoliberal, corporate, 1% talking points are completely and quite literally made up bullshit meant to enrich the donor class at the expense of the working class.

There’s literally no point in responding to anything you say other than with verbal diarrhea, because ALL of your talking points are completely made up… whether or not this is intentional on your part doesn’t really concern me at this point.

Nahvi ,

you are the one with the verbal diarrhea.

Fun, fun. Gonna hit me with the old “I’m rubber and your glue” next?

burntbutterbiscuits ,

m.youtube.com/watch?v=UVKsd8z6scw

burntbutterbiscuits ,

m.youtube.com/watch?v=UVKsd8z6scw

Nahvi ,

Thanks for the trip down nostalgia lane.

Twentytwodividedby7 ,

Just because there is public support does not mean it’s right. Tanking the economy will only hurt the majority, billionaires literally won’t notice. It’s not just the UAW that’s impacted, there’s huge ripple effects. Many suppliers were barely hanging on and this will probably be a death knell. And honestly, this is what makes me fucking hate working in Financial Services for one of the big 3.

I run a department that performs forecasting that eventually influences the affordability of leasing globally and I’m responsiblefor a $25B portfolio. I work my ass off and I have a new family with a 1 year old - we were having a decent year finally after 3 bad ones, then this fucker comes along and is going to tank it.

So now my family is going to suffer because of something completely unrelated to my role and performance. He makes sound bites, but the sides are so far apart it’s ridiculous. They accuse the companies of negotiating in bad faith, yet the UAW has yet to respond to any offer with a counter. They’ve been offered 20%+ raises, cost of living adjustments, signing bonuses, elimination of tiers, more holidays off, and better profit sharing - which is a huge improvement and gets them the majority of what they are asking for, but they’ve literally thrown that in the trash. My bet is all he will accomplish is more factories moving to non-UAW locations or Mexico.

What exactly is the advantage of being American made when the workers turn out the worst quality for the highest wages and they can shut down production on a whim every few years? It’s honestly very frustrating to see this issue not being taken seriously here and there seems to be such little appreciation for the broader impacts.

Viking_Hippie ,

Tanking the economy will only hurt the majority, billionaires literally won’t notice

You’re talking about another recession where they can scoop up assets on the cheap and weather the storm while less fortunate people die. We’re talking about dismantling the system that makes that possible.

duffman ,

What does it mean to dismantle the system?

Viking_Hippie ,

Asking for specifics, unable to grasp obvious concepts or being a sealion?

cheesemonk ,

Why is so much online discourse like this?

Why not just give slightly more specific information on what a better system would look like?

Viking_Hippie ,

Several reasons.

First of all, a lot of people argue in bad faith online and it’s not worth my time and effort to feed trolls, sealions and shills.

Second, the question without further context implies that only people who know exactly what to replace it with are allowed to advocate the end of a horrendously wrong system.

Second and a halfth, why are you talking me with being more specific when the question was far too vague to even know if that’s what they were asking for? Why demand specificity from me and not them?

Third, in this specific case I’m tired and thus have less energy left to spend on what might be another futile back and forth. If they’re not serious about discussing it in good faith, I’d much rather spend my remaining energy on something fun like Baldurs Gate 3 or something…

Cryophilia ,

I dunno about him, but I’m asking for specifics.

Nahvi ,

It is a lot easier to tear down the hard work of others than to build something up yourself.

The UAW is not some benevolent non-profit out to help the poor people of America. They are an organization that represents less than .05% of Americans in one of the best paid low-skill jobs in America, and they say they are willing to try and tank the economy for the benefit of their members at the cost of everyone else.

They are in no way going to dismantle the system that has made them wealthier than their friends and neighbors. They are just holding out for a bigger package with more benefits, and are willing to play Russian Roulette with the economy to get it.

Even if all three CEOs gave up their salaries and benefits packages to benefit the UAW workers they would each only gain about $1 an hour based on my napkin math.

This Fain guy’s rhetoric is nothing more than that and it makes him and the union sound like an asshole to a neutral observer. Not that there are any neutral observers in this post.

Viking_Hippie ,

nothing but a bunch of pro-establishment and anti-union gaslighting nonsense

We’re done here, bootlicker.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

How about if the three auto companies gave up 5% of their profits instead?

Nahvi ,

I have no idea what sort of profit margins the auto companies are working on. I do think profit sharing is a pretty decent idea though. I am surprised the UAW isn’t asking for something like that. Maybe it is too unstable for wage workers in case of a recession.

burntbutterbiscuits ,

Ahhh ok, so you really are talking out of your ass.

The workers are not asking for much. Just their fair share

meyotch ,

Fuck right off with the ‘low-skill’ shit.

Nahvi ,

Am I wrong? I was using it as a comparison to jobs that require a similar amount of education and training.

I tried to check and it seemed to be categorized as “unskilled”. Didn’t really seem like a completely fair assessment so I used “low-skill” instead.

What would you call jobs in this category?

burntbutterbiscuits ,

Thanks for the report CNmsNbc! Much appreciated

You’re talking out of your ass with bs anecdotes. I don’t care.

The corporate executives are tanking the economy not the workers. If you believe otherwise you’re an idiot…… or just talking out of your ass

SmoothIsFast ,

The Dollar is the world reserve currency. Most billionaires wealth is directly tired to its stability. It’s why China/Russia may hate our government but they don’t try and fuck with wall street, they have their value tired to the same piggy bank. Destroying the US economy would directly impact the billionaire class and to act like it wouldn’t is such a fucking cop out.

So now my family is going to suffer because of something completely unrelated to my role and performance.

Considering you seem to not give two shits about the others getting affected by shit outside of their control and now that we are working to get rights for everyone else you feel slighted because your fucked corporate role aided in fucking everyone else, I have no fucking sympathy for you. I hope your affected because then you might just fucking get it because you clearly fucking don’t. Go pound sand dumb ass.

They’ve been offered 20%+ raises, cost of living adjustments, signing bonuses, elimination of tiers, more holidays off, and better profit sharing - which is a huge improvement and gets them the majority of what they are asking for

They want CEOs, and the billionaires reading the benefits of their work to be striped of most their wealth and redistributed to the masses where it’s needed. They don’t want scraps and what should of been given in the first place, they want fucking change. Honestly the fact you think this is enough clearly defines how fucked your mindset is and clearly demonstrates why you need to feel the hurt from this change. Go cry to your ceo I’m sure he will toss you to side just as quickly as everyone else even though you feel so strongly you need to defend those incompetent pieces of shit.

Viking_Hippie ,

This kind of rhetoric is what makes moderates ambivalent about unions

No. That would be the constant drone of pro-establishment and thus pro-billionaire propaganda from the billionaire-owned corporations that dominate the media landscape.

Also, here’s a song about moderates for you.

Nahvi ,

Thank you for the link from a billionaire-owned corporation. I would consider listening to it, but I don’t use google products anymore than necessary. Also, youtube transcript doesn’t seem to work on it.

Viking_Hippie ,

Here’s an alternative link to the same video: yewtu.be/watch?v=3cdqQ2BdgOA

And here’s a separate link for the lyrics in case you hate good folk music

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Phil Ochs was too good for this world.

Viking_Hippie ,

Damn right he was. We just have to try our best to honor his memory by improving the world.

shuzuko ,

I like good folk music but I’m not allowed to wear headphones at work, so I appreciate the lyrics link! Looking forward to listening to the song later, seems like a good one.

Viking_Hippie ,

Happy to help! Speaking of helpfulness, or rather unhelpfulness though, this is one of the most incongruous “see also” boxes I’ve ever seen 😂 https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/6476cf6e-0e45-4cd9-a670-fde091dba493.jpeg

yogurt ,

“Is there a crime here that goes beyond denunciation? No. It’s the grapes of wrath who are wrong.”

Saltblue , (edited )

Ohh look a centrist! what a disgusting piece of shit

Nahvi ,

Very constructive. I am sure you convince a lot of people of the rightness of your opinions with your eloquent speeches.

Saltblue ,

I’m not trying to convince you of anything dipshit, I know your type, you will vote for whoever will keep your privileges, “don’t rock the boat” “keep the status quo”, that’s is what you really think, so why the facade? hypocrite

At least fuckin fascist will tell me that they want to make me a slave or put me in gas Chambers, communists are honest about wanting to meat grind the rich, even Anarcho-capitalists accept they want to fuck kids.

But you, you are the silent supporter of the exploitation of the people, keeping silent because you are too coward to admit you are a piece of shit.

And you know why I know that? Ask a person who works 2 or more jobs to survive, believe me they will no tell you they are “centrist” or “moderate”.

Nahvi ,

Since you clearly missed it that was sarcasm. You are obviously doing nothing but spewing self-righteous textual diarrhea.

I am truly sorry for you that you don’t realize many self-proclaimed moderates and centrist could be your natural allies. Not me of course, I would never intentionally associate myself with a zealot that thinks anyone who doesn’t share his exact opinion is his true and natural enemy. It is a shame that you are probably an atheist, you would fit right into a fundamentalist sect.

Saltblue ,

Oh now it’s sarcasm? Are you gonna cry and say it’s a joke now? Stupid.

I am truly sorry for you that you don’t realize many self-proclaimed moderates and centrist could be your natural allies.

You are not, you vote for shit people just like you, because you are afraid of change, silent supporters of bloody regimes, happy in their gated communities, with zero empathy for their fellow men.

SmoothIsFast ,

They are the good ol’ I support what ever doesn’t inconvenience me. Fuck em, they want to side with fascists because it’s easy, they can be treated the same as its ‘easier’ to not distinguish them. Let em reap what they sow.

bob_wiley ,
@bob_wiley@lemmy.world avatar

[Thread, post or comment was deleted by the author]

    •
    Saltblue ,

    I’m not a business owner

    I’m, and I don’t exploit people.

    SmoothIsFast ,

    Have you considered it may be your attitude holding you back? I’m not a business owner, but I haven’t done a decent number of interviews and participated in hiring decisions. Someone who gave even a hint of this toxicity would never be considered for any decent paying job. Most people as extreme as you seem to be can’t hide it very well.

    Oh, look, you worked for a company without ethics, making sure they can keep their status quo, congrats dumb ass, you’re part of the problem as was described before. Any company with a backbone doesn’t give a shit and will allow you to participate in community outreachs that help progressive initiatives. You are to worried about your creature comforts that you can’t fathom that their are massive portions of the population without such comforts and instead of sticking up for the right to those comforts for all (which you somehow think would strip you of your comforts instead of excess from those whom are accumulating obscene amounts of captial beyond reason), you would rather villianize those attempting to make change as it could mean an inconvenience for you in the short term as changes are made, fucking pathetic.

    Honytawk ,

    Poor aren’t either, since they got some nice rich to cook on a spit roast.

    Nahvi ,

    Yes, haha very funny, let’s all become cannibals of the rich. I’m sure that everyone will get a mouthful of that yummy long pig. What are the poor going to eat after that?

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Yeah, it’s not like food grows on trees!

    Nahvi ,

    Is it fair to assume you have those trees growing outside your house?

    Personally, I have a flock of chickens running around the yard, but only one sad little plum tree that has a couple years yet before I will have enough extras for neighbors or canning. Thinking about putting some potatoes in the ground in the spring though.

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Is it fair to assume you have those trees growing outside your house?

    Yes?

    Why is that so hard to believe?

    Nahvi ,

    It isn’t. That is why I mentioned my own plum tree and chickens. Was just curious if you were trying to blow smoke up my ass.

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Even if I don’t have those trees, those that have excess can share with those who do not.

    Cryophilia ,

    Will they though?

    Nahvi ,

    Growing enough food to feed even one family takes time, effort, and resources. I am sure they would be glad to share, if you are willing to trade one of those things. Pretty quickly we end up working for or bartering with those guys though.

    SmoothIsFast ,

    You just have the workers go to the same plants produce the same food and give it away instead of allowing profits to go to the billionaires. The system is in place we just need to ignore the dumb fucks siphoning everything away. We already produce excess, and we can continue to do so…

    Nahvi ,

    We produce excess of something things, but usually that is in trade for not producing enough of others. Scarcity is not a creation of the uber rich, it just exacerbated by them.

    Someone would have to decide whether the avocado farm, almond farm, or the winery got more water in California. Right now it is mostly decided by economic power and a byzantine set of rules and laws dictating who owns the water. Unless we want farmers killing each other over it, we would need to put a new system in place.

    SmoothIsFast ,

    Scarcity is not a creation of the uber rich, it just exacerbated by them.

    40% of food is thrown out in the US every year, food scarcity is not an issue in the US at least. Sure there are certain decisions that need to be made but once again, these decisions are not required to be done by the billionaire class and are already being handled by your lower level municipality workers. It wouldn’t delve into chaos because Joe stopped telling investors why they should invest, we simply need to forget about there bullshit profit motives and manage resources without a dollar valuation and instead based on how scarce the resource and its utilitarian value is when utilized in a specific process.

    Scarcity is not a creation of the uber rich, it just exacerbated by them.

    Exactly scarcity is the the means at which we can judge how something can be utilized, when you complicate that with dollar valuations instead of the utility and efficiency it can generate you end up in a corrupt broken system extracting wealth to those who can name prices, instead of proper resource allocation that can benefit all.

    Right now it is mostly decided by economic power and a byzantine set of rules and laws dictating who owns the water.

    As stated it’s currently handled by municipality workers who can continue with the current process or switch to one which values the utilitarian output of a decision versus its economic value. None of the issues described are solved by or aided by the inclusion of a billionaire class, instead they, as you stated, exacerbated by such classes of individuals.

    Nahvi ,

    As stated it’s currently handled by municipality workers

    If you live in the eastern part of the US, you might find it interesting to look up water rights west of the Mississippi; it is an absolute madhouse.

    Spent a year in Colorado not long ago. The water that fell from the sky was owned by someone else before it even hit the ground, though I think I heard that there were some changes specifically in regards to rain barrels since I left.

    SmoothIsFast ,

    If you live in the eastern part of the US, you might find it interesting to look up water rights west of the Mississippi; it is an absolute madhouse.

    I’ll have to check out how the west coast allocate water than should be an interesting rabbit whole to dive into.

    Spent a year in Colorado not long ago. The water that fell from the sky was owned by someone else before it even hit the ground, though I think I heard that there were some changes specifically in regards to rain barrels since I left.

    I mean, even if that’s the case, who enforces the rights to “sell” that water? I’d assume it’s some lower level employees or still municipality government that could just also up and not give a shit that some billionaire has staked claims to sell this water to whoever they please instead of allowing it to flow to those in need. Almost all the claims of ownership from those obscenely rich are more or less just expected to be respected and enforced by those who suffer from their exploitation, most systems could continue on tomorrow and gain efficiency I’d we gave the middle finger to the wealth hoarders and banks.

    Nahvi ,

    some billionaire has staked claims to sell this water

    I don’t really know how true it is, but my horticulture buddy up there made it sound like the water flowed through a number of small farms that really weren’t worth much until the population boom made land prices sky-rocket over the last 20 years.

    The bigger issue in the area is that it is more how long the water rights have been retained. If your family bought your farm 150 years ago, you will get your water before the person that bought theirs 20 years ago. It doesn’t matter in wet years, but as soon as a drought hits the 150 year farm will get 80-100% of their water, while the 20 year farm will be lucky if they get 20%. If you bought water rights last year, you better conserve your seed and sell your animals quickly because you aren’t getting any water.

    In a way it is completely fair, it isn’t the long-term farmers fault that the state is having an unsustainable population explosion. However, as one of those new residents who really didn’t understand the local laws when I moved there, I hated it.

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    And the problem with that is?

    Nahvi ,

    I don’t have a problem with it, but it is just a simplified version or maybe predecessor of what we have now.

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Without billionaires hoarding their wealth, yes.

    SmoothIsFast ,

    What are the poor going to eat after that?

    The same food they are forced to slave away to produce. Are you fucking stupid? Poor people are literally the foundation of your society not some executive flying around to talk to clients. Literally fuck off. IT has access to security controls in an org. Accountants can access funds if they need as they have the rights. Billionaires add nothing of value to this society nor to its functioning. The driver who delivers your produce, the farmer who produces it, the factory worker who packages it, the restaurant employees who cook and serve you, the gas station clerk who turns your pump on and off, the grocery store workers, the municipality workers managing waste water and electrical infrastructure, all the jobs foundational to a society are not done from billionaires and seeing the rich gone tomorrow would not change that instead it would release a burden and allow progress. Honestly it takes just a miniscule of common sense to understand this, which shows how disconnected and stupid the billionaire class and those who defend it are.

    Nahvi ,

    Please stop arguing against your own fantasies of what I might think and actually comment on what I said. Doing the former makes for nice campaign speeches, but we aren’t politicians.

    Billionaires aren’t the ones that starve when the economy implodes.

    Nowhere here did I say billionaires are a good necessary parts of society and we should support them. Crashing the economy will cause mass starvation, but not by those who have the resources and foresight to prepare for turbulent times.

    Poor people are literally the foundation of your society

    Agreed, but those poor people depend on having a useful currency to trade for tools to make more food. If you crash the economy the little piece of paper we trade around right now will become worthless and we will be back to bartering until someone prints new paper or mints a new specie to use.

    The guy making the tools can’t do anything with 100,000 heads of lettuce, he needs something he can pay metallurgists with, who in-turn need something to pay the miners with. That lettuce is going to rot before it changes hands enough times to get into someone’s belly.

    SmoothIsFast ,

    those poor people depend on having a useful currency to trade for tools to make more food. If you crash the economy the little piece of paper we trade around right now will become worthless and we will be back to bartering until someone prints new paper or mints a new specie to use.

    You are too ingrained with a monetary system you cant even imagine a system in which one doesn’t exist. The miner doesn’t need a currency when his food and tools are provided for. The metallurgist doesn’t need to sell tools when they can give away the excess. The farmer doesn’t need to sell his food when he can give away the excess. We don’t need constant accumulation to distribute resources in an efficient manner. Especially when the only reason these excess products weren’t given away in the first place is profit motive. Not to mention most of the labor intensive work could be outsourced to robotics where we not hoarding the physical resources for profit and war time motives, making them overtly expensive.

    We live in a time where automation and robotics could allow us much more freedom and dignity however we have allowed those at the top too use that efficiency to hoard profits and resources as power management tools instead of utilizing these resources for growth and equity across our species.

    Nahvi ,

    You are too ingrained with a monetary system you cant even imagine a system in which one doesn’t exist.

    I can imagine it, but only in a post-scarcity society. It just doesn’t seem plausible to me until we are at least a Type 1 Civilization, more likely Type 2.

    When two people want or need the same limited resource how do you decide who gets it? Money solves that issue. While it is a poor solution, I have yet to see something that wouldn’t have just as many problems, though admittedly different ones

    Even if we had post-scarcity potential, I am not at all sure human nature would allow it. Some people have a fundamental need to stand above other people, others have a fundamental need to collect things, and then there are takers. Takers being those who would gladly take from others but would never give away their own stuff without being forced, even if it was pure excess.

    We live in a time where automation and robotics could allow us much more freedom and dignity

    I agree that we are definitely approaching an era where robotics/automation could replace the need for most human labor. Though I don’t really think we are there yet. One of my favorite sayings a few years back was, “humans should be in the business of thinking and creating, not laboring.” Sure I can buy a “perfect” machine made wooden chair but there is a certain character and richness to having one an artisan made.

    I was a fan of taxing the labor of robots that replaced humans and using those funds to cover a UBI long before I ever heard the name Andrew Yang, though even that doesn’t get rid of the monetary system.

    tryptaminev ,
    @tryptaminev@feddit.de avatar

    Thanks to people who want to retain the status quo that economic crisis are handled by fucking the poor and bailing out the rich. That is not a law of nature btw. It is a choice made by both large american parties every time.

    The US could also increases taxes, seize assets from rich people and imprison tax evaders. With that money they could invest in infrastructure, schools, hospitals, renewable energies… That would bring the economy back on track and also help everyone to prosper.

    What you describe is the result of deliberate disaster capitalism, where crisis are embraced as an opportunity to steal from the poor and give to the rich.

    Cryophilia ,

    both large american parties

    Whoa whoa whoa let’s not “both sides” this shit. There is one party doing this, and another party sometimes having to make concessions to them.

    The US could also increases taxes, seize assets from rich people and imprison tax evaders. With that money they could invest in infrastructure, schools, hospitals, renewable energies…

    Guess which party is working on all of this right now (minus the higher taxes part)?

    Hint: the answer is not “neither”

    tryptaminev ,
    @tryptaminev@feddit.de avatar

    the US democrats are far right conservatives by most countries standards. You saw how they fiercly opposed the idea of a somewhat lefty candidacy and instead brought on Clinton, who is a neoliberal economist and war hawk and Biden who is also a neoliberal economist and has a strongly racist history.

    Cryophilia ,

    Who gives a fuck, they’re not regressive fascists. “Both sides” is bullshit propaganda.

    tryptaminev ,
    @tryptaminev@feddit.de avatar

    I am not saying that “both sides” are equal and it doesnt matter what to vote. I am saying that the problems will not resolve as long as the democrats are not moving towards being an actual center/progressive party. So it needs the activism on the streets and in the companies, because there is no political solution available in the current US party system.

    Cryophilia ,

    Why does it seem like you guys have never heard of primaries? Or democratic party elections?

    I stood in line to vote for my local reps who go to the national Dem party who decide what the party platform is and what to spend money on and who to support. Did you even know that was a thing?

    tryptaminev ,
    @tryptaminev@feddit.de avatar

    How does that relate to the US democrats mostly having conservative/right wing positions? Also how do the primaries help you, when the US elections are significantly influenced by who can muster the most money in return for representing the interests of their money givers? Your constitutional court even argued, that bribing politicans is a form of protected speech.

    Cryophilia ,

    Ah I see, you’re not American so you literally don’t know.

    General elections for us are binary. We vote for Democrats or Republicans or we throw away our vote. There’s no 3rd party.

    Primary elections are where we determine the candidates that will be put forward for each party. This goes for President but also every other executive branch office, at the federal and state levels.

    Internal party elections are where we decide the party reps who decide funding, advertisement, official party endorsements, etc.

    Bernie lost the primary election because his core supporters have no idea any of these other races exist. They show up, barely, every 4 years to vote for president.

    More centrist progressives like me show up every single election. We are constantly pushing our agenda up the chain.

    Flighty Leftist voters don’t stand a chance until they consistently show up to push their agenda.

    tryptaminev ,
    @tryptaminev@feddit.de avatar

    i know what the primaries are. The system to remove political options from the general elections and push them into party internal factually excludes people from political participation and making their voice heard. You know, the working class people that cannot get leave from work to participate on these elections.

    Also the difference between a two party system and a one party regime is one party. So US democracy is rather fragile by design. That is why people need to take the struggle to the factories and streets. The system and also the democratic party in itself is structurally rigged against them.

    Cryophilia ,

    The idea of some glorious revolution that will fix all the problems in our democracy is the equivalent of Christians believing that Sky Daddy will send them to heaven.

    tryptaminev ,
    @tryptaminev@feddit.de avatar

    And that is why you are the economically best developed and militarily most well armed third world country.

    Cryophilia ,

    The parts of us that consistently vote Democrat are nomal, rational places to live. Funny how that works.

    tryptaminev ,
    @tryptaminev@feddit.de avatar

    your normality is not our normality. Of course it is possible that all the European countries are crqzy communists and have a skewed view on the world, but i find it more probable that the US is out of order. For instance having protected leave when expecting a baby is guaranteed by all but two countries in the world. One of them is the US and the other is some island state in south asia iirc. That is something i’d expect a centrist government to solve imnediately. Obama himself made the ACA so that still most people need to get private insurance argueing that its 3 million jobs in that system. Even Maggi Thatcher did not dare to fuck public health insurance in Britain.

    Of course your reference frame is the US, but i can only emphasize how eye opening a look into Europe might be, to see how far right the entire political system of the US really is.

    Cryophilia ,

    the US

    …is a conglomerate of 50 different countries.

    Parental leave is a right in my state. Health care is nearly universal. Vote by mail is universal. My state guarantees sick leave and paid time off to vote, care for a sick family member, or other circumstances. My state has sane labor laws, rent control, anti-corruption measures, and progressive taxation.

    You clearly have no idea what the US is like, so kindly stop talking about something you have no knowledge of.

    tryptaminev ,
    @tryptaminev@feddit.de avatar

    The US is not a “conglomerate” nor is it different countries. You do not have a passport from your state and if your state would seceede there wont be many international recognition.

    Also it is quite telling that you say that you have these rightsin your state, so workers who dont habe them shouldnt fight for them. Then again i think you just saw recently in the abortion decision of the supreme court, why it is dangerous to leave these things to the state level and not have them on the federal level or better yet constitutionally protected.

    Cryophilia ,

    Waah waah technicalities. Stop distracting. My original and central point was that in Democratic strongholds, the US more closely resembles a European standard of living. Do you agree?

    so workers who dont habe them shouldnt fight for them.

    Stop making shit up and pretending I said it.

    tryptaminev ,
    @tryptaminev@feddit.de avatar

    My point was that the workers need to fight, because they have no political means. You showed that they do have some political means, which i interpreted as an arguement against them fighting and trying the political way.

    While i agree that there is different states with different levels of workers rifhts, i still think that the political route is not reliable, in particular in the states where republicans are dominatinf but also because of the reluctance of the federal level of the democratic party to grant and protect workers rights. These need to be governed by federal law and their principles should be in the constitution.

    Cryophilia ,

    The federal level democrats are NOT reluctant, they just literally don’t have the numbers to enact change. In most cases, you need 60/100 senators to pass a law over the objections of the other party, and Republicans object to almost every single bill democrats put forward.

    If we vote in more democratic Senators, federal law gets better.

    Nahvi ,

    seize assets from rich people

    I agree with everything you said except this bit. The 4th Amendment is supposed (glares at imminent domain) to protect us from a tyrannical government seizing our assets just because they want them.

    Shadywack ,
    @Shadywack@lemmy.world avatar

    The problem is that the billionaires never starve. They just end up with slightly less fathomless oceans of cash while we can afford rent or a mortgage.

    If this doesn’t work, it’s time for some guillotines, then nobody has to starve at all.

    Cryophilia ,

    Lol a ton of people literally starved during the Reign of Terror

    You keyboard warriors are so annoying

    Shadywack ,
    @Shadywack@lemmy.world avatar

    There was a lot of the same thing back in the Roman Empire. The reason many more emperors weren’t gutted like a fish was due to their Praetorian Guard. If we had a solid way to get past the tear gas and national guard en masse, there’d be much less rhetoric and a lot more action. Hopefully we co-opt them, much like what happened back then. The Praetorians killed quite a few shitty emperors, hopefully we get after the oligarchs in the same manner.

    Cryophilia ,

    Jesus you fucking kids

    Nahvi ,

    then nobody has to starve at all.

    Ah yes, more cannibalism! How long exactly do you think 999 people can survive off of eating one?

    GreenMario ,

    I don’t know. Let’s find out 😈

    burntbutterbiscuits ,

    People like you ARE the disease

    Nahvi ,

    Thank you for your well-thought-out and oh so eloquent opinion.

    theuberwalrus ,

    You’re the one welcoming your own oppression.

    burntbutterbiscuits ,

    No problem. A scalpel is not always the correct tool

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