Because the main goal was to beat the Russians to the moon. They also came up with a plan to fly astronauts to the moon then later devise a way to get them back.
What is rightthink and what is wrongthink is already predetermined before conversations start. So someone who is young and wants to think for themselves cannot hold a position that is not already predetermined, they cannot even talk something through to get the right answer because even holding the wrong answer is liable for attack.
Not even that but not holding the right answer and advocating for it aggressively is already aggressively wrong.
And who is responsible for most of these issues? You guessed it white men. No only do they have to hold the right position they have to defend that position more than anyone else.
The world is getting a lot more competitive but I think the thinks most guys care about is getting girls and getting money do to things like by a house. Sex has gotten horrifically competitive with some guys getting laid loads and some guys not getting any. It pays to be the best and guys know that, lying about it doesn’t help anyone. Theoretically evening out that somehow is probably better for society but I can’t even conceive of how that would happen, but might be an explaination of how marriage for life became the norm.
In terms of money it’s difficult for everyone, but then for everyone else to get a leg up when you are struggling is aggravating. All anyone wants is a level playing field and white guys don’t get that. Also girls still like guys with money whereas it isn’t the same the other way around.
Sure you can say something like women liking guys with money is all part of the patriarchy and pushes that back onto men. But serious, how are the current generation going to fix that? It’s okay for women to feel money makes a man but not to change, but it’s not okay for men to let that happen. That just doesn’t make sense.
Then the mental health aspect is men don’t have anything. They get attacked, they get told they need to be strong, countless examples of women abusing men for being weak (that’s seems the norm in relationships) I guess that’s somehow not women’s responsibility either it’s the patriarchy. So men find comfort and support in other men but that is also not okay. There are no man days in work, no male only spaces, no one trying to push men into a career for teaching. Men even having a normal guy only friendship group gets attacked in ways that women only friendship groups don’t.
I’m sure this comment will do poorly because it doesn’t fit the narrative and people will gloss over it but that’s the explaination of what’s going wrong in guys lives today.
And another hard fact for a lot of people here is the right actually have some points. Can you believe that a huge contingents of different attributes supported by ~50% of the population has some things going for it. I am left wing, probably very left wing. But the way the left act is pushing a lot of people to the right. Conversations with the right are much more open, much more free. The left is so aggressive and unopen to discussion it pushes people away. If the right offers equality and tells young boys they are not born with oringal sin for being boys, then people are going to listen. We need a party that is left economically but individually right.
Boys are told how to think and they must advocate for that position or they are wrong. No discussion.
White men are the cause of issues, even for things like women abusing men because it’s due to the patriarchy.
The world is actually competitive for sex and money. More so than ever.
Men getting the blame, not having any help, not being allowed things that help their mental health pushes them to the right because the right has more open conversations and more equality for all. (Well with the exception of financially).
You accuse me of using a strawman later then use the biggest strawman ever.
You don’t believe sex and money have gotten more competitive over time? (Just look at tinder just look at the working poor)
You think it’s good for society if sex and money gets more competitive over time? If no then what have I said that’s wrong?
I’ve heard this a lot - almost always from smirking fascists. The sort who think the left do anything but discuss. They talk so much they get nothing done.
He’s the best way I can describe it. The right will say that “taxes should be low and that people should make their own way in life, so people either need to pay for their own education or get their parents to do it”. The left would say “education should be free”. That’s part 1, part 2 is the right will say “The best applicant should get the job” the left will say “it doesn’t matter about who is best what we want is more women, so all the male applicants can be ignored” (which is never reversed either). Part 1 most people are left part 2 most people are right. Unfortunately the left are shooting themselves in the foot.
It’s always toxic masculinity and men are always responsible for it. Even if a boy is young and has never made a decision in their life they are told they are responsible for toxic masculinity and need to fix it. The term itself is sexist as it implies, and is used, to say men are entirely at fault for this. Toxic feminism is never talked about. Women are never told they need to stop with the toxic masculinity. They are never told to stop expecting men to be emotionless and strong all the time, instead men are told to have more emotion. Yet for most men they say “when I showed emotion to my girlfriend she used it against me or we broke up” yet somehow that’s mens fault.
It honestly depends how truthful you want to be. The first is men are allowed to talk about issues with other men without being judged for it. So it could be “I’m worried I don’t make enough money for my family” they wouldn’t want their family or family’s friends around then. Could be “I’m having this sex issue”. Could be “this one night stand sexually abused me and if I tell anyone she told me she will go public that I raped her when I was the victim!”. Without men only spaces those conversations can’t happen because you can’t say “oh I’m going to,” actually where? haha I can’t even think of an example where a man can go to talk about sexual violence, thats how bad it is. But I meant “oh I’m going to go to this sexual violence clinic for men and it will be in secret so you don’t know I’m going” it needs to be a casual place that allows for other conversations.
Now this is the controversial part that will divide people. I think most men simply just enjoy men only spaces some of the time. They feel less judged and they feel it’s more friendly. I honestly think men only spaces are important to mens health because they can enjoy themselves and act “normal” they can act in a way that feels natural to them rather than acting the way women find socially acceptable.
Not for gyms no. Uni-sex gyms are the best in my opinion and I would choose then over single sex. More people, more space, more machines, no point having men only gyms because I’m not really having convos and when I do it’s just as likely to be men or women for something causal unless I’m asking people how many sets they got on the bench press.
I’m fairly certain the hidden secrets of girls who fancies who, and does she like me back all came up in scouts. That’s all part of growing up. I certainly learnt a move or two from the rugby club and people got helped out on issues they were having with girls, finances, school, mental health, fitness, confidence, friendship. The rugby club was the biggest source of positivity I have ever seen in my life. Yet I had more than a few girls who knew nothing about it, never even met rugby players telling me it’s “toxic”
I was very careful not to use the word universal. If I had to bet I would say confidently way more than 50% of men and boys would benefit from some male only spaces.
Let me ask, why are you so against men only spaces? Okay you don’t want men only spaces, that I can accept. But why deny that to others, where are people going to go for issues I mentioned?
I would have to disagree that men having access to mental health and help for domestic violence is a waste of resources but I guess we can’t all be cunts. If you can’t see that I guess you’re beyond help.
Still never answered where guys go for issues.
As for men only social clubs, well its not a waste of resources because it will pay for itself like it has done in years gone by. There is value in it and it is paid for, that’s how the economy works. Otherwise everything we do that isn’t work or food is a waste of resources.
I’m absoultely not only about division of sexes I’m on about some small, in certain cases sexual divided areas that woukd improve mental health. But good strawman.
Well I’m glad you got all the answers to stuff. I guess my conversation with other men are pointless but seeing as you have all the answers and know there is no benefits (eventhough I have first and second hand proof it does).
If there are no safe spaces let’s close down women only spaces then, they don’t need domestic violence centres, we don’t need prison we don’t need police, not point worry about anything we all need to live together.
Looks like we are going to have to start at the basics with this one.
noun: strawman an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent’s real argument
The Nazi comment you made was a strawman. Nice one.
Then I pointed it out and you switched it to me complaining about 1984. Again nice strawman.
Two, talking about relationships as nothing but sex, and also a competition, is depressingly transparent on a level I’m not sure words can convey. The fact you asked this question is damning. The answer is no, but the answer doesn’t matter, because it’s like asking about “Muslim birthrates” or “human biodiversity.” The framing itself is fucked. If you yourself are not a diet Nazi then you’re getting ideas from people who definitely are. Being human feels kinda broken, and someone offered a simple scapegoat that feels satisfying to hammer on, even though you know the implications are horrific: “I can’t even conceive of how that would happen.”
Wow yet another strawman
Describing access to vaginas as some kind of resource to be distributed is dehumanizing - and anyone suggesting you’re owed a woman is a fucking monster
Yet another strawman! I never said anything of the sort.
the left will say “it doesn’t matter about who is best what we want is more women, so all the male applicants can be ignored”
Arguments are easy when you just make shit up.
No I’ve seen it first hand and it’s been in the news. Women get way more leg ups than men and numbers get capped or reserved.
Because it’d be toxic femininity, genius. And of fucking course feminists address how stereotypes about women impact women - but the ranting Youtube manosphere dorks you seem to get your information from do not understand the concept. They think pushing girls toward pink and frills and cooking and babies is good, actually, even when it’s exaggerated to exclusionary extremes, and girls who don’t do that suffer ostracism and mockery. That’s the exact mirror of boys suffering when cliche masculine associations are twisted into unyielding demands… usually at the hands of other boys.
Think this was in reference to women attacking and looking down on men for being unmanly. Yet no mention of how women should behave better, who’s responsible for that?
No feminist is out there telling boys to get laid or they’re a failure. That’s y’all. You do that shit
Haha its like you’ve not met women. Women always make out guys are pissy because they can’t get laid or because they are short. But I’ve never seen guys do it, guys just enjoy having sex that’s why they try to get it. And very frequently they help each other.
at the mens only hospital, or the men’s only therapy building?
You don’t need a mens only hospital.
Mens only therapy could be good.
No one’s trying to take away male access to mental health and help, cute strawman tho.
Yes they are. The only domestic violence centre in the country got closed by me because women were outside protesting. It got closed down and no one cares because its men.
Look up domestic violence how its been treated by governments and by feminist groups and your eyes will be opened.
Nothing about those even require the therapists to be gender specific, say nothing about the entire facility.
Some therapy doesn’t need to be gender specific. I’m not arguing that, but some does. The fact that people cannot accept male only spaces for anything is the issue. If people need help and feel more comfortable with a male therapist with other men only in the group, for any reason shouldn’t that be allowed?
I do love how you jump from “if I can’t get mens only X, women shouldn’t have protection from domestic violence”.
Because out of all this the thing that I really cannot ever get my head around is how no one doubts women needs men only space. But even to suggest that might need the same things, to suggest men need protection from domestic violence then you are sexist, an incel, a Nazi. I don’t deny women should have women only spaces, but what I’m fighting for is men only spaces. You don’t want that don’t go. If that genuinely helps people and makes them happy why do you want to stop someone? Just think about that for a moment, why do you want to deprive someone of health and happiness?
Why not just join a men’s footy team?
Some people have dodgy knees, some people are old, some people don’t like sport. Why aren’t those people allowed the same camaraderie that is now only reserved for athletes?
I know how much support and help I have had in men only environments, how much guidance and growth I’ve had, how much fun I had. From scouts, sports, friends. I’ve also seen how much help other people had, seen people crying and gotten better after it. I know these things first hand and as well as that I have. I also have empathy, I can understand how a young boy with no grandparents and a dead dad, no male teachers in school and no friends might need male only spaces. They need that guidance and support. The truth of the matter is men only groups are different to mixed groups, they just are at least for huge amount of the male population. They have something you don’t have elsewhere. Men and women are just different for most people and that’s perfectly okay. But forcing people to only act a certain way isn’t.
I was on about how children grow up and the lack of discourse and ability to think for themselves. I’m sorry you were unable to understand that and had to take the extreme examples only.
Because they are. Everything is a competition, work, housing, relationships, sex, money that’s just how it is. Sure it’s not the same as a foot race competition but you still competing against others that’s the defintion of the word.
That’s not distributing a resource though. You said that. All I was musing was that it would be healthier if people and society if people weren’t chasing what they want all the time. If some guys weren’t fucking a different girl everyweek and chasing that high, if guys weren’t trying to emulate those guys just to get one bit of positive attention from women, if women weren’t casually shagging some guy out of their league then remaining single because they “can’t get a good guy” but really they been fucking guys who have no interest in settling they just been playing the game. I think society would be better. How that happens I don’t know. If you dont agree with that you must look fondly on the pickup cluture as much as the “artist” do. Education probably the answer maybe something like mens clubs could be one example as I said before were you can get intergenerational knowledge and guys can tell younguns what’s important in life. But really it’s a difficult problem and whether you agree or not I don’t think that’s the optimal state of society, what is I don’t know.
Weirdly I have had this abuse from women. Not from guys when I was a virgin as a child, but I got it from girls. I didnt get it from guys either, i did get ribbed when I hit on a girl and failed but only in a light humoured funny way, but I did get it from girls. Which seeing as I’m 6’1 and got the nickname “top shagger” in my university rugby club it really goes to show how high the bar is for girls and how hurtful they actually try to be. Like I said I’m 6’1 and slept around so I’m not really bothered, but I can see and empathise with others. I don’t think it’s fair to out of the blue say things like “if you was taller girls would like you”. But whatever, girls seem to think that’s a good thing to say.
I do think there is an attack on masculinity that is going unaddressed and this is a huge issue that if that was solved issues like this wouldn’t arrise.
If you ever speak about it, it just goes the old “you’re a man you have life on easy don’t you know how hard it is to be X” or “that’s not the way the world is any more you are stuck in the 40’s” or " you need to be thinking about X and how men make them feel and you need to do better even though you haven’t done anything wrong you’re responsible."
Boys and men want some shithousary, they want some aggression and they want to be tough. But they don’t get the support in a lot of ways I did even a few years ago.
Guys don’t want to be weak and breakdown and cry and talk about their feelings, they want to be part of a group that supports each other and helps each other grow and be tougher. But when guys are wrestling and calling each other cunts or whatever that isn’t healthy, they should be asking each other about their emotions and what not. I’m just convinced men aren’t built like that and building the world away from the old systems isn’t good for men.
They need a group where they can go and relax and shithouse. Things like scouts, full contract sport, boys groups, mens groups in the pub. That does more for my mental health and most guys mental health than any of the stuff being pushed now. What we need to push is society is community and I think men need that more than they need anything else, just look at loneliness levels. Secondly it’s probably purpose, being seen as tough and a provider.
That’s what men crave and there is such a severe lack of that community that it is taken from twats like Tate because there is no other option.
Sometimes what they want and what society says they want is the same thing.
I didn’t say I didn’t have a community I said people find it hard. I have had plenty of communities whether it was from clubs or sports or friends or more recently travelling. You’re just making incorrect assumptions here.
That’s just not true. No one has ever taught me to lash out at anyone. This is the exact issue I’m talking about and if you take nothing else away from what I have said look at this. As soon as someone (me) talks about masculinity being good for some people someone (you) attacks me for it and says it isn’t right. A lot of men want to be tough they don’t want someone to told their hand. It’s not a “oh you messed up hunny, you want to lean on my shoulder and cry. It won’t happen again.” it’s a “you fucked up and let the team down. Smash some cunts in the next tackle like I know you can” then when that happens you get a “that’s fucking more like it”. Yet somehow that level of support goes to you beat your wife or something as you are going on about. It is exactly the issue I am talking about.
You’re just wrong on this.
Traditional male support that a lot of people born traditionally male respond well too. But other people on the outside look down on us and discourage boys from having that support.
Even something as simple as all mens groups are heavily discouraged.
Yes they are though. People say if men keep their emotions bottled up and don’t cry or talk about their emotions it’s a bad thing. The fact that men express their worries, emotion and support in a different way is the issue because so many people do not like it and try stop it.
I have no idea how you got to attacking people when I was clearly talking about team sport. Obviously punching unsuspecting people is bad but that is horrifically different to what I was saying. Killing people is also bad, but equally that isn’t what I said.
People have told me I shouldn’t act the way that emotionally supports me. People have told me contact sports should be banned, boys shouldn’t rough house, calling your friend a cunt is not acceptable in anyway, being loud and singing in a way that does not disrupts others isn’t okay, playing voluntary games like drinking or slapping each other is unacceptable. People have told me that team sport, and men only environment, is negative for society because I believe it allows men to act in a way that is natural to them, yet some people don’t like it.
Boys and men should be supported in doing things that help them. Wether it’s making friendship groups where you can call your friends cunts or where they will look out for you when needed.
Despite the impressive growth in broad economic indicators like GDP and a reduction in unemployment, millions of Americans are grappling with an ongoing humanitarian crisis. The Democrats’ touted economic recovery, often referred to as “Bidenomics,” faces scrutiny as food insecurity reaches its highest level since Biden...
What op should do it take a country like yours and put it on the same graph. If average wage goes down for your country too then it’s highly likely not to be a union factor and instead something else.
On your last point. Guys only get to be guys when around other guys, exclusively.
Lots of women act like men aren’t right or they aren’t good enough when they actual normal and do normal guy shit.
Guys wants to call each other a cunt and rip into each other and tell funny stories, it’s how they bond and trust each other. Girls don’t like that and think guys should stop it. Either the guys act normal to them and it goes to HR or they act normal to each other and the girl is pissed off she is treated differently and goes to HR. The only thing to do is to act completely professionally.
Boys are just built different and I don’t think it’s fair that women always tell us and actual children how they should and shouldn’t act in a way that is against their nature.
Guys are in dire need of male only spaces where they can shoot the shit. I only really had it in sports clubs or as a child, or luckily in some work environments. But work isn’t the same as outside so that’s sucks. Wish my knee wasn’t fucked.
I’m with you. Guys are much easier to talk to about a lot of things.
Though girls are easier in some ways.
Talk to a girl about an insecurity and she will beat you with it. Worried about being small oh just join a gym even if you go all the time. Worried about being short, oh I wouldn’t ever dream of dating someone shorter than me but there are girls out there who are shorter than you so try with them. Worried about low pay, oh you will get paid more in the future and then you will have worth. Anything like that girls are awful.
Missing something like a dead relative or ex. Girls tend to be better with that.
If you feel sad or talk to girls if you feel vulnerable or want help solving a problem talk to boys.
All my best friendships have been 99% ripping into each other and telling funny stories. Like I don’t tell shitty stories about work because I lived it once and I don’t want to live it again. No one else does either. Unless it’s to vent about someone because I’m angry. But I do tell funny stories about work.
Having said that even in the most masculine environments when anyone has had an issue or been pushed too fair the guys always rally and pick them back up.
Day to day shit is your own problem. The once in a month or few months is our problem and I’m here for you.
You boss was mean to you. You want to bounce other careers around or see if I can find someone to hire you? No, well grow up everyone’s boss is shit. Either leave or deal with it.
Your misses just cheated on you. Right come on I’ll get the guys and we’ll go to the pub, she’s a cunt you’re better off without her.
Also hand shakes are fucking great. I usually go for a shake and a quick hug. But the handshake is better.
I find it toxic when people go on and on about minor problems that are in no way relevant to the people in the conversation and there is no way they can help.
All it is doing is bringing unneeded negativity into an environment. That’s toxic.
You want help? Yine I can help how? You want to ruin my free time when I’m trying to de-stress by going on about people and things that have nothing to do with me and I can’t help? Go away.
Somebody do something. Somebody? ( lemmy.world )
xkcd #2913: Periodic Table Regions ( imgs.xkcd.com )
xkcd.com/2913...
xkcd #2909: Moon Landing Mission Profiles ( imgs.xkcd.com )
xkcd.com/2909...
Can Parents Prevent Their Sons From Sliding to the Right? ( www.thecut.com )
“My Brother Is So Far Gone”: How Male Influencers Turned The Men In These People’s Lives Toxic ( www.buzzfeednews.com )
Bidenomics Isn’t Working For Working People ( www.levernews.com )
Despite the impressive growth in broad economic indicators like GDP and a reduction in unemployment, millions of Americans are grappling with an ongoing humanitarian crisis. The Democrats’ touted economic recovery, often referred to as “Bidenomics,” faces scrutiny as food insecurity reaches its highest level since Biden...
There's a steep decline in pay compared to the value workers add to the economy, closely tracking the fall in union membership. ( lemmy.world )
Join a union➡️
I'm a trans man. I didn't realize how broken men are ( newsweek.com )