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hotpotato138 ,

women's safety when out on the streets

I never approach women on the streets. That's weird!

How are we supposed to take the lead and approach while keeping women safe at the same time when approaching her could make her feel uncomfortable, even in safe environments such as social groups, bars & clubs, workplaces, etc?

It's not hard to make women feel safe. It's not rocket science.

main issues men have is a rise in male loneliness

I made a post at leftwingmaleadvocates about depression being the cause of male loneliness. Men's mental health is ignored. It's unpopular to say incels should take responsibility for their mental health and dating life.

The redpill/PUA.

I think most PUAs are actually "blue pilled", not "red pilled." I don't think redpill is as toxic as people say. It is based on data and it hasn't been debunked. Data is reality.

These are the communities that teach them the alpha-beta nonsense

I don't label myself as an alpha or beta. I don't label other men either. However, I think there is some truth to them. Alpha doesn't mean superior and beta doesn't mean inferior. People can choose how they feel about those words.

So the first step here is for society to stop expecting men to make the first move and not just that.

I'm a shy guy, and I prefer to approach women. I wouldn't want women to approach me most of the time. I think it's in men's nature to be the pursuer.

gapbetweenus ,

Human hierarchy, since we are social animals, is much more complex than alpha/betta bro-science. And there are enough men who don’t mind be approached by wome - to just blankly state that men ate pursuer by nature.

hotpotato138 ,

Yes, there are men who don't mind being approached.

Mshuser OP ,

I never approach women on the streets. That's weird!

That's cool dude, the guys are encouraged to do that tho

I don't think redpill is as toxic as people say. It is based on data and it hasn't been debunked. Data is reality.

What makes you say it's not as toxic as people say? There are definitely truths to some of the redpill, I just don't agree with how they approach dating as well.

hotpotato138 ,

What makes you say it's not as toxic as people say?

I watch Rollo Tomassi's videos. I haven't read his books. He probably talks more about it in his books. Basically, red pill is about hypergamy. Hypergamy doesn't mean all women have unrealistic standards. There are lots of average men in relationships too.

Mshuser OP ,

From what I remember, hypergamy is the concept of dating up in a way. That's fine, I did read Rollo Tomassi's book but that was a very long time ago. But it wasn't just him. I remember I used to watch small time redpill channels before fresh n fit or andrew tate came into the scene. Because of the hypergamy concept, many redpill have taught men to always maintain frame and power and to manipulate a woman to get sex. I even remember there was a book that had a chapter on how to cheat on a woman. That shit was messed up. Redpills also teach men that women love it when a man is dominant, that these are the lies they tell, these are the games she plays or if she chooses not to have sex with you, it means she sees you as beta or low value. This is where I take problem with the redpill. Everything else such as women wanting looks money status are okay given that we also understand we don't take this idea to the extreme.

hotpotato138 ,

maintain frame and power and to manipulate a woman to get sex

It depends on who you follow within the redpill community. Some people are toxic. I follow a dating coach named Alan Roger Currie. His approach was about being straightforward and honest with women. He had he beef with Rollo Tomassi and didn't think Rollo was truly "red-pilled." He believed in the alpha/beta stuff, but otherwise his philosophy is pretty good.

fresh n fit or andrew tate

I don't follow either of those.

Redpills also teach men that women love it when a man is dominant, that these are the lies they tell, these are the games she plays or if she chooses not to have sex with you, it means she sees you as beta or low value.

I think there's a difference between being dominant and being an asshole. It's possible to have an egalitarian relationship once the relationship is more established.

Mshuser OP ,

We had this convo before on reddit. I read ARC a long time ago and he's one of the more straight forward examples which I do like. Even Rollo Tomassi had some good ideas but there were definitely things in there that didn't sit right with me. But from a lot of the redpill material I've read it's always some variation of "women don't love you" "you need to keep the masculine frame at all times" "you need to let her know you have options, tell her about other girls coming onto you" "you need to make them scared of losing you". I didn't know he had beef with Rollo though.

As for the whole dominant thing, the only thing where being a dominant could be a good thing is if it's discussed in kink communities (where they discuss important boundaries and safe words to ensure a safe play) or you follow healthy masculine examples. But a lot of redpillers ideas of masculinity is not based on kink or honest communication, a lot of communications are assumptions via nonverbals, and a lot of mental guessing since you're utilizing tactics to "display" value or show her you're high value or some shit like that.

RandoCalrandian ,
@RandoCalrandian@kbin.social avatar

It's not hard to make women feel safe. It's not rocket science.

It’s also not mens responsibility to make women feel safe.

Just like women aren’t responsible for making men feel safe no matter what baggage that man has with women.

Saying men should exert any effort whatsoever towards women’s safety is like saying women are should be making up for every negative thing a woman did in a man’s life when she meets him.

It’s wrong and unreasonable in both cases, and we shouldn’t cater to the sexist idea that men should be doing things for women that women absolutely won’t and don’t do en mass for men

gapbetweenus ,

How about making humans around you feel safe?

RandoCalrandian ,
@RandoCalrandian@kbin.social avatar

How about not expecting other people to handle your emotions for you, and do it yourself like a grown up?

Also how about we hold women to that standard as well.

gapbetweenus ,

Why do you assume I would think women should be held to a different standard?

Also, it’s not clear to me what you gain from people feeling unsafe around you? Except you maybe live in a sketchy area. Isn’t it just nice when everyone feels safe?

RandoCalrandian , (edited )
@RandoCalrandian@kbin.social avatar

Why do you assume I would think women should be held to a different standard?

Mostly the part where i don't see you in women's forums telling them to make themselves responsible for the irrational fears/emotions of men in their lives.

Instead you are here, lecturing men about it, despite men being more at risk walking alone at night than any other demographic.

Also, it’s not clear to me what you gain from people feeling unsafe around you? Except you maybe live in a sketchy area. Isn’t it just nice when everyone feels safe?

I'm not sure what you'd gain from not immediately emptying your wallet and giving me all your money. There is risk involved in not, you don't know what the asker might do, so why not just do the effort others want you to do?

And no one is bending over backwards to make men feel safe, we're expected to make ourselves feel safe. The double standard is very much the problem, and i'm not going to exert effort on another's behalf until they are exerting effort on mine. Been burned quite a few too many times by people playing the "oh well if you don't do it first, it will never happen!" card while never intending to reciprocate and wanting the lopsided situation to be the status quo.

gapbetweenus ,

Women actually do quite a lot of emotional work in relationships, so no idea what you are talking about.

So you feel unsafe around women? That is an interesting one, never happened to me - but people are different.

RandoCalrandian , (edited )
@RandoCalrandian@kbin.social avatar

are you suggesting i'm in a relationship with all the random women (and/or people) you're expecting me to do emotional labor on their behalf of? No?

So how is that point relevant at all? (hint: It's not, you know it's not, this is whataboutism trying to change the field of the discussion to a place where you feel you can 'defend' better, and it's really annoying to watch and extremely obvious)

And the point isn't feeling unsafe, the point is the double standard of women expecting men they don't know and do not intend to know to mind read and handle any possible negative emotion of any woman at any time, which is a far different standard than what you just tried to come back with.

hotpotato138 ,

I agree.

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