I hear all this talk about women's safety when out on the streets (a real issue which I do acknowledge) and how we as men need to do our part to make sure they feel comfortable, safe, and that we hold other men accountable when doing the same thing. Absolutely have no problem with this. But one of the main issues men have is a...
It's not hard to make women feel safe. It's not rocket science.
It’s also not mens responsibility to make women feel safe.
Just like women aren’t responsible for making men feel safe no matter what baggage that man has with women.
Saying men should exert any effort whatsoever towards women’s safety is like saying women are should be making up for every negative thing a woman did in a man’s life when she meets him.
It’s wrong and unreasonable in both cases, and we shouldn’t cater to the sexist idea that men should be doing things for women that women absolutely won’t and don’t do en mass for men
Why do you assume I would think women should be held to a different standard?
Mostly the part where i don't see you in women's forums telling them to make themselves responsible for the irrational fears/emotions of men in their lives.
Instead you are here, lecturing men about it, despite men being more at risk walking alone at night than any other demographic.
Also, it’s not clear to me what you gain from people feeling unsafe around you? Except you maybe live in a sketchy area. Isn’t it just nice when everyone feels safe?
I'm not sure what you'd gain from not immediately emptying your wallet and giving me all your money. There is risk involved in not, you don't know what the asker might do, so why not just do the effort others want you to do?
And no one is bending over backwards to make men feel safe, we're expected to make ourselves feel safe. The double standard is very much the problem, and i'm not going to exert effort on another's behalf until they are exerting effort on mine. Been burned quite a few too many times by people playing the "oh well if you don't do it first, it will never happen!" card while never intending to reciprocate and wanting the lopsided situation to be the status quo.
are you suggesting i'm in a relationship with all the random women (and/or people) you're expecting me to do emotional labor on their behalf of? No?
So how is that point relevant at all? (hint: It's not, you know it's not, this is whataboutism trying to change the field of the discussion to a place where you feel you can 'defend' better, and it's really annoying to watch and extremely obvious)
And the point isn't feeling unsafe, the point is the double standard of women expecting men they don't know and do not intend to know to mind read and handle any possible negative emotion of any woman at any time, which is a far different standard than what you just tried to come back with.
Have you ever considered it's you who are wrong, and not all these men you keep throwing names and adjectives at when they don't agree with you?
Yes, saying "toxic masculinity" is sexist as fuck, and we should use a different term. Your projection of hurt feelings onto your audience is what makes your advice shit, tho. It's wrong to use because it's intentionally insulting and sexist, not because it makes men feel bad.
"Patriarchy" we should absolutely keep talking about, because it's a very popular brainwashing tool to convince people that all problems in the world are the fault of the class of men, and specifically not the fault of anyone not in the class of men, don't you even dare think women might be at fault for something! -- but seriously, it's a psyop so that feminists have an excuse for their bigotry, and we should keep mocking the term to point that out.
"Feminism" we should absolutely keep using, because "Say Gender equality or egalitarian" is for people who actual give a shit about equality, and that's not feminists. This one your post mostly agrees with, but i don't think you take it quite far enough. Letting most feminists "rebrand" into egalitarianism will just make egalitarianism the same sexist dumpster fire. It's like suggesting most KKK members move to an "equality for all races" movement and pretending that stops the problem. It's not that feminists needed to change their terminology, it's that they needed to realize they were, are, and are actively saying they will continue to be misandric sexist pieces of shit in just about everything they say and do.
As for why you get pushback saying these things, it's very clearly because you presume to tell men what they are and should be feeling, which is the same bullshit gynocentric attitude that led men to be subject to this nonsense in the first place.
Would you mind unbanning mine? The use of the term 'dipshit' was highly relevant, as intended insult to the audience was very much the topic of conversation
Apex fallacy and basically patriarchy theory, which we know to be wrong
A very few men had power in the past, as did a few women. To blame men as a whole is the same shaming bullshit that you justify lgbt people having pride for, contradicting your whole point.
In no way we’re women more socially constrained than men, at any point in history
Simply look at all the male deaths. You’re putting that against your perception that women weren’t allowed to leave the kitchen (which is wrong) and just completely dismissing all of the far, far worse and more burdensome things men were expected to do under threat of violence and death
That’s because “manhood” and “masculinity” were code for “acts the way I want, and not making their own life choices in any way contrary to what I want”
So the conversation is more like:
the way men used to be beaten into behaving like doesn’t work for me, but I want to continue to beat men into a ‘shape’, just one I like. We need a new ‘manhood’ because I still want to be an abusive sexist piece of shit, while also benefiting from that abuse. Someone come up with an ‘ideal man’ image so my abuse of these boys doesn’t come back to bite me later
It’s just trying to continue to be sexist, while not giving men power or competency
Men are advantaged in every aspect of our society, yet we have worse health outcomes for most of the things that will kill you
Found the problem: stop drinking the koolaid
Men are told they are “advantaged” in all aspects of society, but that take is 110% Apex fallacy and completely dismisses the losers in society, who are by and large men.
This is a societal wide level of gaslighting, mainly by feminism, to prevent men from seeking redress before they even knew they needed it
As I psychologist, I’m concerned about mental health, especially the mental health of men and boys because it’s been overlooked for so long. Because there was so little interest in how much the negative discourse around masculinity impacts boys, my colleagues and I ran a survey. We found that around 85% of respondents...
The “be a man” sexist narratives all have one thing in common: they treat masculinity as prescriptive, not descriptive
“This is the way a man should behave” instead of “this is how we observe men behave”
It’s about control. People are very sexistly invested in what men are “allowed” to be
And notice it’s not what the man wants to do, he wants to sit on the couch and play video games, putting in only enough effort needed to do that.
That doesn’t jive with other people, tho, they want that man to be financially productive so they can profit off of him. The prescriptions have nothing to do with what is good for that man, and therefore nothing to do with what it is to be a man.
All forms are simply different variations of “here’s the way to act that is best for me (not you, the man being talked to or about)”
"Gov. Ron DeSantis on Friday signed a measure that will overhaul the state's alimony laws, after three vetoes of similar bills and a decade of emotional clashes over the issue."...
It technically gets rid of permanent alimony, but only for new couples. Existing payers will have to go to court to have their setups adjusted, and that's not a guarantee. They just now get to have their "right to retire" considered as part of the adjustment, which it very much wasn't before.
I had an interesting conversation with a feminist on Reddit. She replied to my post about why left-wingers support feminism. In the post, I said I don't believe in a patriarchy or toxic masculinity....
This article is inspired by a Youtuber Caitlyn V who is a sex coach. I've watched some of her videos and I find them to be very informative, especially about sex. I'll link it here below...
It’s funny that no matter what happens, the answer ends up that the man is in the wrong and the one who needs to change or do something.
What happens when the men changing their individual or collective behavior does fuck all to address the problem, or even that they all wake up and realize the system was designed this way with women never being held responsible for changing so that men can continue to be controlled at will?
Well maybe if men weren’t almost entirely responsible for dealing with rejection, and women dealt with some of it, then it wouldn’t be an issue?
Seriously tho, it’s hilarious to watch a woman complain about how badly men take rejection.
I’d bring up some stories of how women handle it, but you can Google the damage they cause on your own. And that’s with them dealing with <1% of what men are expected to deal with
In case you were wondering why all your advice sounded outrageously sexist when you read it back to yourself 😁
Your argument would make more sense if men weren’t dealing with all that defensive bullshit and being shit on for being single and not in some way giving their resources to a woman
Oh and if it wasn’t illegal for them to pay for sex
Oh and if they didn’t hear “where are all the good men” on every dating site
Oh and if men weren’t statistically provably in more danger at all times women complain to be (you didn’t provide sources either, when you gave them a pass for treating all men like shit out of their own delusional fears)
So, if it weren’t for a little thing called reality, you’d have an excellent point!
This conversation conveniently ignores how many women frequently reflect men by outright saying “you are not enough”
In fact, if they have an audience, they’ll often do even more: “and how dare you think you were good enough to even talk to me, you creepy pervert go die”
But to many people, even that one is the man’s fault, because as some commenters have clearly shown: everything is
As egalitarians, we want all people to be treated with equal consideration. There should be no favorites. All people, be they men, women, or children, deserve the same human rights, and the same amount of support....
Feminism is absolutely cancer. It, as an ideology, is as toxic and cancerous to gender relations as the KKK is to race relations, and we know this because feminists adlib the same bigoted arguments that racists and Nazis and KKK members use and have historically used.
As an example of them doing exactly this: gendering of domestic violence data collection to minimize male victims, hide female perpetrators, and throw any attempts at including males back in those males’ faces with fallacious and insanely sexist takes like “who is causing the violence” (which they also only say after hiding the female perpetrators)
Edit: this is called Gamma bias, btw, and is one of many examples of feminists using KKK tactics against men. For those who would like to see feminists version of Mein Kampf, it’s called the S.C.U.M. Manifesto and has been cited as a “seminal feminist work” by feminists in politics who are creating this sexist DV legislation
I don’t know how else to describe it, but all my male friends and family are very unemotional. Not in the sense that they don’t feel anything, but that they are a lot better at handling them and I feel like I’m not. I’ve tried meditation, therapy, healthy eating and a better sleep schedule but nothing works. I still...
if your anxiety is running crazy it's doing so for a reason
Often that reason is you keep dismissing the part of yourself whose entire purpose is to protect you from danger
What do you expect it to do but get worse? You're ignoring the alarm bell, all it can do is ring louder and harder.
"regulating" that signal is the exact wrong response, even in extreme cases. You need your fear and anxiety to regulate itself to be properly tuned to the danger you need to be aware of, which means more communication with your self, not less.
Emotional regulation (not suppression) is an important skill.
Wholeheartedly disagree. This is an unhealthy attitude to take.
Regulating your own actions is an important skill, and seeing and understanding how those actions relate to those emotions, that as well.
But your emotions are part of you, they are a part that deserves to be listened to and respected, and nothing in your response indicates you put in effort to do that.
Which makes sense. We, as men, are not at any point given the time or space to do so, and are often just physically beaten if our emotions are ever a problem for other people. It makes sense that repression and controlling them becomes the go-to for most
men do not benefit just from being men, they have to claw and compete and struggle to get to those positions of power, and usually once they they stop other men from getting in
It's the implication that this is a male issue, and that females would and do behave at all in any way better when in those same positions that we take issue with.
They don't, they wouldn't have, it's insanely sexist to believe otherwise, and insisting on using terms like "patriarchy" when we definitely don't live in one in western society and haven't for at least a century is incredibly problematic, especially when speaking to a victim of geocentrism and using it to dismiss his valid feelings.
that "and women" part does not get said often enough
Most of these institutions were created by monarchies to keep the monarchies in power. The last monarch of any real note was a woman, and had decades of ruling time under her belt. This, however, still gets blamed on "patriarchy" and men as a whole, as if the men being subjugated were responsible for their own subjugation.
It's an extension of the hyperagency society forces on to men, and incredibly sexist to keep using the term "patriarchy" or especially to throw it in a victim's face, it's essentially victim blaming at that point. "Oh it was men who caused the problems so any problems you, as an individual man, face are your own fault!"
It's feminist terminology meant to blame men for any and every problem, including problems men bring up. Even if they weasel out of it technically not meaning "all men are at fault and to blame", that is very much how it is used in practice, and certainly how this commenter used it to invalidate the emotions of OP
Patriarchy just means "society", but sneaks in blaming men for any problems caused by it
Egalitarian is a word that means equality between all peoples, and that existed before feminism as a word, to give you an idea of how far back their sexist bias goes
"Toxic Masculinity" really is a victim blaming way to say "gender expectations placed on men by society, which are harmful to others but maybe sometimes we'll admit are harmful to the man subject to the abuse, but who gives a fuck about that guy he hasn't solved his own problems and instead made them known to others, how can we make him shut up?"
And for that last one we actually prefer the terminology feminism used before they realized it applied to men as well: "sexist gender roles and expectations"
There’s a certain copypasta that gets posted in men’s issues spaces online. I think it might have originally been said by Karen Staughan. You may know the one I’m talking about. If you have it handy, please post it in the comments. I want to go ahead and reiterate it because it’s a very important point about online...
You run into a very serious contradiction in that value
What if fixing something that hurts men, hurts women?
It sounds flippant, but it's legitimately a problem men have to deal with.
As a recent example, in florida they are finally "ending" permanent alimony, and men now have their "right to retire" considered when adjusting payments.
Many, many, women depend in part or entirely on a man suffering and working on their behalf. If i want to help those men, to the perception of those women, i am harming them.
Even trying to equalize draft legislation in the states is technically "harming women"
So, given just those examples, i'm all for "harming" women, based on how they've defined it.
I just stepped down as moderator from all five of the subreddits I used to moderate over on Reddit. I just can't ethically justify continued activity on Reddit, and especially free volunteer labour for an openly greedy company that is engaged in scummy behaviour, forcing mods to open protesting communities or be demoted....
I wish it was more surprising to me that this person genuinely went to "This female dominated field starts at less pay than this entirely different male dominated field, wymyn are swo oppwessed!"
And that reveals their blatant sexism and focus on female supremacy
If i used "women" as a shorthand for a broader female-dominated system of oppression against men (like how feminism very much behaves), people might physically attack me. We have to reiterate repeatedly that feminism != women because feminism does some very nasty sexist genocidal things and blaming all women for those things would be as silly as blaming all germans for the actions of the nazi's
They don't make that distinction against men because they're actively trying to attack men, and so want all of those 'miscommunications' and 'oh i didn't mean it that way even though thats absolutely what i said' bullshitery so they can hide how outrageously sexist they are being while pretending not to be.
That's a logical fallacy. There probably should be more outrage about those things, but that doesn't change the initial situation.
It's 'funny' how you are perfectly capable of seeing this logical fallacy.... until you're doing it yourself.
The fallacy you are claiming they are making is the same one you made yourself when you waltzed in here and made it all about how hard things are for women.
I'm in a similar boat as you, and watched TRP go from "this is info men need to know, and soon" to religious conservative grifters, and similarly upset about it
And then watching menslib and others get setup so men could talk in "approved" ways
But all of that makes it even more important to me not to abandon other labels to grifters. It just makes it easier for them to dissipate any momentum we might accrue for social change.
Can't tell you how many admin responses i've gotten that said "Hate or bigotry towards men is not covered by our anti-discrimination or hate speech policies. Please read our policies before submitting a report about hate speech."
but men are pressured to work even harder to support that kid
Male workers having children then becomes an economic benefit, as the man has to work harder
Female workers having children is an economic loss, as the worker stops working entirely.
From an financial point of view, anyways
Another reason why i'm all pro WFH policies. It gets men back in constant contact with their children and makes all the excuses a woman might make to not have to work anymore really weak.
It means "men having power, or free of power women hold"
And if you run into the right ones, the mask comes off entirely. Just look at the production of The Power and you'll get plenty of great examples of misandry on display, proudly.
I suppose i'm trying to defend a position that's not my own, and yeah, using "men" to describe a system created by some men to advantage all (or at least white) men in a broad way is absolutely sexist - but it's hardly the main issue here.
the system wasn't created to advantage men, otherwise feminism wouldn't have happened.
The system was created to advantage the wealthy and powerful, and keep them that way. That they were white or male is incidental. Any other race or gender in that position can and will create the same problems.
Saying something ridiculously sexist like "There wouldn't be wars if society was run by women" or any other similar forms such as "the future is female" is just as braindead stupid as someone saying:
"Racism would disappear if X was run by Y people"
It's not the color or gender of the people, it's the incentive that the positions of power create to subjugate others.
Feminists actively promote the idea that just having women in power solves problems, and that is a blatantly stupidly sexist idea to believe.
so in an equal society we'd expect them to make up a very slight majority of fortune 500 CEOs, congressional representatives, supreme court justices and presidents
Well that's a load of bullshit.
You're treating all of those things as if they were a lottery, and women simply weren't considered.
They're not. ANY OF THEM
Every one of those positions has an army of men competing to be the next one in the seat. Ignoring all of that because you feel like women should have made it is just stupid.
Here's the facts for you: Even with blatant discrimination in women's favor, they still don't get into all the "positions of power" people try to cheat them into because those positions often still require work women by and large choose not to do
Work like taking risks, or being in the public eye and taking responsibility for failures that may not be your fault. Both things women avoid at far greater rates then men.
Edit:
And to be very clear, i'm not saying women can't, I'm saying they don't, won't, and will continue not to, in anywhere near the numbers men do, simply due to their personal choices.
This is why the focus on 'equity' is so fucking toxic. It's basically saying "all power in society should be evenly distributed, i was able to twist data around enough that it i can show a way women have less (ignoring all ways in which men have less), and unless women have all power that men have in equal rates, it's sexism!" and most of the people who say this with a straight face know full well it's impossible and the purpose of framing it this way is so they can continue to advocate for free shit, in perpetuity
Many, but female aversion to physical and social risk is a broadly studied field that you are perfectly capable of searching yourself, and especially with the prevalence of cherry-picked studies i feel it's better you find one from a source you trust on your own.
Suggesting that the perfect attributes required to lead a major company just happen to coincidentally be those that are bestowed on white men is absurd.
Or that women specifically preference men who exhibit these traits, rewarding them with sex and status in ways that women generally are not and have not been rewarded for since our species first started to walk might relate to the skills necessary for success in a competitive field.
As it turns out, reality doesn't care about your delusions, or how unfair you feel it is
I don't see much point in continuing this discussion.
Of course you don't, that's what people who are wrong usually do.
The video above is a collaboration between Aba and Preach who mostly do reaction videos to cultural issues and Shan Boody who delves into discussions about relationships and sex. The video above focuses on the weird double bind men are forced into by the wider culture and people in their lives with zero concern or forethought...
Your highlighting the sexism, while calling it a good thing
The point of venting is not to hedge and hem and haw about making sure you are taking personal responsibility for your own problems
And it’s something women are never expected to do when being vulnerable, but men are
That’s exactly the sexist problem
When women are vulnerable with each other, they offer support so that the venter understands at a root physiological level that they aren’t alone and that even if they can solve the problem themselves, they don’t necessarily have to.
You are suggesting men keep doing the exact opposite from fucking get go.
Men (especially according to you) have to preface their expressions of vulnerability with “this is my problem, not yours, this does not burden you in any way, I promise” and then they might get a sympathetic ear.
You’re proudly exemplifying the exact sexist problem.
So of course it will be received better, you’ve removed all the effort of being someone’s support before you started, what is there for her to complain about in your vulnerability, you were never vulnerable in the first place!
and like all feminists, after boldly spewing out bullshit you pat yourself on the back and walk off, smug in your "fixing" of a perceived wrong, and certainly not staying around to have it be challenged.
The expectation society (men & women) has of men to approach and initiate an interaction is the reason women feel unsafe when a man does approach ( kbin.social )
I hear all this talk about women's safety when out on the streets (a real issue which I do acknowledge) and how we as men need to do our part to make sure they feel comfortable, safe, and that we hold other men accountable when doing the same thing. Absolutely have no problem with this. But one of the main issues men have is a...
UK: Abused partners who kill their partner to get lighter sentences under Sally's law ( kbin.social )
https://web.archive.org/web/20230720051219/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/20/abused-partners-who-kill-lighter-sentences-new-sallys-law/...
People in the mainstream should stop saying "Toxic Masculinity", "Patriarchy", and yes, even "Feminism" ( kbin.social )
In short:...
Men do not seem like they are proud to be men, and this is detrimental to their mental health. We need to celebrate men instead of demonizing them. ( kbin.social )
Original by u/Oncefa2 on Reddit. Still very relevant today:...
The Crisis Over American Manhood Is Really Code for Something Else ( www.politico.com )
A long read, but definitely a worthwhile one.
No distinction between male and female rape says Northern Ireland judge as woman is jailed for raping a man ( www.newsletter.co.uk )
progress!
A silent crisis in men’s health gets worse ( www.washingtonpost.com )
Across the life span — from infancy to the teen years, midlife and old age — boys and men are more likely to die than girls and women....
‘Toxic masculinity’ is toxic terminology — The Centre for Male Psychology ( www.centreformalepsychology.com )
As I psychologist, I’m concerned about mental health, especially the mental health of men and boys because it’s been overlooked for so long. Because there was so little interest in how much the negative discourse around masculinity impacts boys, my colleagues and I ran a survey. We found that around 85% of respondents...
Florida Gov. DeSantis signs bill ending permanent alimony ( www.cbsnews.com )
"Gov. Ron DeSantis on Friday signed a measure that will overhaul the state's alimony laws, after three vetoes of similar bills and a decade of emotional clashes over the issue."...
It seems like feminists want men to think in a gynocentric way. ( kbin.social )
I had an interesting conversation with a feminist on Reddit. She replied to my post about why left-wingers support feminism. In the post, I said I don't believe in a patriarchy or toxic masculinity....
What happens if you don't have sex for over a year? (We need better solutions) ( kbin.social )
This article is inspired by a Youtuber Caitlyn V who is a sex coach. I've watched some of her videos and I find them to be very informative, especially about sex. I'll link it here below...
You're either an egalitarian, or you're a sexist ( kbin.social )
As egalitarians, we want all people to be treated with equal consideration. There should be no favorites. All people, be they men, women, or children, deserve the same human rights, and the same amount of support....
I feel like less of a man because of how emotionally sensitive I am.
I don’t know how else to describe it, but all my male friends and family are very unemotional. Not in the sense that they don’t feel anything, but that they are a lot better at handling them and I feel like I’m not. I’ve tried meditation, therapy, healthy eating and a better sleep schedule but nothing works. I still...
“I’m not like the other feminists.” ( kbin.social )
There’s a certain copypasta that gets posted in men’s issues spaces online. I think it might have originally been said by Karen Staughan. You may know the one I’m talking about. If you have it handy, please post it in the comments. I want to go ahead and reiterate it because it’s a very important point about online...
Welcome to /m/men! ( kbin.social )
I just stepped down as moderator from all five of the subreddits I used to moderate over on Reddit. I just can't ethically justify continued activity on Reddit, and especially free volunteer labour for an openly greedy company that is engaged in scummy behaviour, forcing mods to open protesting communities or be demoted....
Do we actually want vulnerable men? | Aba & Preach ( youtu.be )
The video above is a collaboration between Aba and Preach who mostly do reaction videos to cultural issues and Shan Boody who delves into discussions about relationships and sex. The video above focuses on the weird double bind men are forced into by the wider culture and people in their lives with zero concern or forethought...
Feminism: Not “progressive”. Not “egalitarian”. Not “liberal”. Not “left-wing”. ( criticathink.wordpress.com )
Notes for a talk at ICMI with the following title: Feminism: Not “progressive”. Not “egalitarian”. Not “liberal”. Not “left-wing”....