gapbetweenus

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gapbetweenus ,

For a lot of folks Trump is representation of masculinity. I think it’s something worth reflecting on.

gapbetweenus ,

Sad article. I think it really has a lot to do with how men a raised - especially that parents and peers “tell” boys to suppress their negative emotions. The only permitted male emotion was anger, but anger does not jive with out modern society. And at least for me, even with parents sporting my emotional expressions - it took long time and a predominantly female social circle to be able to really access my feelings.

gapbetweenus ,

Have you tried reading the actual lines?

gapbetweenus ,

At least in USA conservatives are trying to actively take away women rights, so I’m kind of surprised the drift is not even worse.

Twilight | ContraPoints - video essay mostly on dichotomy of dynamics in love and lust ( www.youtube.com )

I know Twilight but, hear me out - if you are into thinking about human nature, philosophy, love, sex, sm and more I highly recommend that video essay. I don’t really like to give an outline, since the essay is journey of itself.

gapbetweenus OP ,

Never read the books and not a huge fan of the movies (I guess I watch anything with vampires in). But somehow that essay connected Twilight with thoughts and concepts I was thinking a lot about lately. And I’m not sure how to feel about it, maybe I need to read more romance novels.

gapbetweenus OP ,

Reading Twilight as a guy in Russia is quite ahead o the curve. Source: I was born in Russia and spend my first ten years there - luckily not there anymore.

gapbetweenus OP ,

No love for it’s nature or it’s people can overcame it’s increasing violence against wrongthinkers like me and you.

Makes me sad every time to think what could have been.

gapbetweenus OP ,

The observation that incels crave to be desired, made me empathize more with them - great observation.

gapbetweenus OP ,

Sadly they don’t see, how they enforce structures that are source of their own suffering.

This community might be harmful

This community sends “All lives matter” vibes. I understand that there are issues with how men are treated and there is nothing wrong with talking about it, but it does seem a little bit like a distraction from feminism issues. Women are objectively under a lot bigger threat and talking about women rights more makes a lot...

gapbetweenus ,

Dudes, come on - don’t feed the obvious troll.

gapbetweenus ,

There is really easy solution - socially financed education and income based support.

gapbetweenus ,

Giving your children self confidence and educating them also on more philosophical topics is definitely something parents can/should do. The problem arises when parents can’t fulfill that task.

gapbetweenus ,

he left has fundamentally failed to target root causes of inequality and lack of social mobility.

If the left wants young men’s votes it needs to tackle inequality and social mobility directly.

What are you talking about? The left has found and implemented solutions to those problems (not perfect but better than nothing) in places where the left had power - northern Europe for example.

gapbetweenus ,

But they didn’t contradict right wing economic policy from the 80s when they had the chance.

So how are they left if they don’t actually enable core leftist ideas?

Democrats in the USA would be a rather conservative (when it comes to economics ) party in most social market economy countries. Which is my point - it’s not that the left does not have solutions for social inequality problems. It’s just that there are no politicians in power (in the USA and UK) who are interested in bringing those to life.

gapbetweenus ,

So you kind of identified the problem in the political system as of itself but still you are blaming the left?

gapbetweenus ,

You’re identifying “the left” how exactly.

People who try to put leftist idea into work?

So again, you clearly see that the US-American political system is absolutely broken and bonkers, but blame the left for it. Which in USA (at least economical left) did not have any power to beginn with.

Maybe I’m not getting your message.

gapbetweenus ,

Why do some women like to have women only spaces? I think different people have different environments they feel most comfortable in, where they can be the most self. I assume that is true for at least some men with men only spaces.

gapbetweenus ,

Ok, so you are making the left responsible for being not more successful in implementing their ideas and reforming the political system? Which is fair, I guess - but also seems trivial.

gapbetweenus ,

Again, I don’t really get what you are trying to say. I don’t see any clear connection between different parts of your answer or how it’s connected to our conversation at all.

gapbetweenus ,

They may not be as strong but there are plenty of smaller dudes playing too. It makes no sense to exclude them.

So why would it make sense to exclude men?

Also, I’m not the best person to argue about it, since I personally don’t really like male-only settings so I would not speak from my own experience. And in general I think our society profits more from mixed settings since they help to normalize relations between genders.

gapbetweenus ,

That’s up to you. If you don’t care about people actually understanding what you say, I can’t help. Than again why participate in a conversation in the first place?

gapbetweenus ,

You’re just after a simple argument which doesn’t reflect reality.

Fascinating, so you not only have troubles to convey your opinion but also are absolutely incapable of understanding others.

If you don’t see why what I’m saying is relevant to the conversation that’s on you.

It’s always the others. How convenient. Does this also happens to you in relationships?

One sentence answers asking for help aren’t holding up your side of the conversation to make it interesting to engage in.

Sorry for not being entertaining enough.

So are you like just a debate bro? Or why do you talk with people if you don’t care if they get you or not?

gapbetweenus ,

You got me.

gapbetweenus ,

Or maybe sometimes you want to hang out with people who share a similar experience of being a women?

gapbetweenus ,

At least for me the vibe in a male only, mixed or where I’m the only dude setting - are very different.

gapbetweenus ,

Pretty sure you can chose earth as fix point and have everything rotate around it on really strange orbits. Everything is kind of relative.

gapbetweenus ,

Why would objects far out need to orbit earth every 24h?

Wouldn’t that break relativity tho if you treat the earth as a fixed point?

To be honest, physics was never my strong point. If I remember correctly you could chose any point as your observational (?) point but maybe someone with some real physics cred can chime in.

gapbetweenus ,

On one hand very nice short film. On the other hand an internet provider demanding safer internet for children, feels inherently sketchy to me.

gapbetweenus ,

In the west most people hunt for fun of it, let’s be honest. Personally I don’t think there is anything wrong with it as long as it’s done in sustainable way.

gapbetweenus ,

Only because something is not of any use for you, does not mean that everyone else is sharing the same experience. You could go out there and talk with hunters why they hunt and what they get out of it. I would not hunt, because I don’t like guns - but fishing can be a really neat experience, especially a neat bonding experience with your father.

gapbetweenus ,

It’s always bothering me when people don’t have more empathy towards their fellow humans than to other spices.

gapbetweenus ,

Or you can do it with.

gapbetweenus ,

If you want to say something, say it - not watching some random YouTube videos.

gapbetweenus ,

Wow, never thought of that one before - going vegan right now.

gapbetweenus ,

I’m curious where you live, since your experience is rather wildly different then mine.

What is a moderate feminism for you? Need to know before I go searching.

Also I’m curious what being included means for you - is considering men allies including them? What would satisfy for you the criteria of men being included?

gapbetweenus ,

The question is how do men and women love each other after metoo?

Sure we can switch the topic.

fuck off, dont try to love me”.

What the hell are you talking about? That has nothing to do with feminism and I struggle to understand how you arrived at the conclusion that after metoo women don’t want to be loved anymore. Women don’t want to be raped, harassed and then dismissed when they try to get help. That was the point of metoo.

how do men and women love eachother after metoo?

Respecting each other, here I gave you the answer.

But men are still the old one,

There are tons of positive role models for men out there that fit feminist bills. From Argagorn in LOTR to Aang in Avatar, if you are interested I can keep on going.

nd there’s nothing but the old philosophy to answer the question of how do men and women love eachother after metoo.

Yeah, because as I said metoo was about not being raped, harrassed and not dismissed - some rather basic things for a relationship. What answers do you exactly need?

And it cannot be either men or women to answer it. It must be discussed and agreed. Because women must like what men will be, and men must accept what women want.

But that is an individual question. There is no answer for everyone besides - respect others and their boundaries and then anything goes. There is no one archetype of men that all women find attractive and never was.

Final point: the answer cannot be a negative one. It cannot be “don’t be a dick”. Because after metoo most reasonable men understand that. The question is, if we’re not to be dicks, what will we be? And I’m talking about seduction and romantic relationships here.

You just misunderstood the answer. Again it’s not about not being a dick, no one cares. It’s about not raping, harassing and than dismissing women. And the answer the left is giving: consent. Make sure the other side is into what ever is going on and than you are free to do what ever you two want.

gapbetweenus ,

Sure, if pushback and arguments is not understanding and not caring in your book. You could also try to explain your opinion, if you believe I misunderstood you. That’s up to you buddy.

guess you’re left blaming men and social networks for turning young men mysoginistic fascists.

That is not my opinion at all. Except that social media is defenetly playing a role in spreading populist idea. But there is also an underlying reason for those ideas to become popular in the first place.

gapbetweenus ,

You wrote it yourself, you don’t understand what I’m talking about eventhough I explained at length. It’s not up to me. I explained at length already.

No, I wrote that I pushed back and made arguments. It’s your personal assessment, that I didn’t get your point. If you were genuinely interested in a conversation - you would try to understand my point and where the misunderstanding might be.

I understand the statistics the article is talking about. And I think I understand why. If you want to understand, you’ll need to make the effort.

And other people have other opinions on why and discuss those opinions. That’s why we are here. You can try making an effort to be understood and try to understand others or just be upset why nobody agrees with you.

For example you wrote:

guess you’re left blaming men and social networks for turning young men mysoginistic fascists.

Wich is clearly misunderstanding of my opinion. So I just corrected you. It’s not that hard.

gapbetweenus ,

Sure, if you are interested in my personal opinion I will gladly share. Just to be sure we are on the same page: we are talking about why the new right and conservatives are able to reach young men and where and why progressives fail to do so? Agree or did I miss something?

gapbetweenus ,

We live in a time where everything is changing rapidly, which includes gender roles in society. Those stayed rather stable over longer periods of time, but industrialization and two consecutive world wars changed western societies rather drastically. Women became rather completely independent of men in economical aspects and simultaneously pushed for more rights and participation. But this also changed the relationship dynamic and what women seek in a relationship. While previous generation could look at their parents for role models, newer generation had to come up with their own. At the same time over the last 20 years people (in the west) started to grow up in a less certain and secure world. While at the same time internet arrived and changed a lot of ways we interact with other people, while at the same time providing populist with a perfect tool to reach their audience.

So to put it together, we live in a completely different and much more complex world form previous generations. It’s not just gender roles people are struggling with. And that is always a perfect time for populist to come around the corner and provide simple solutions. So populist and conman took on themself to sell the old romantic story of better times long gone by (conveniently their audience wasn’t alive back than, so they don’t know) just with modern tools. And easy answers that are sold in an entertaining way will always find buyers. Especially since it’s pushed by algorithms right down peoples throats.

gapbetweenus ,

Populism benefits from new media since it offers easy solutions. While at same time it takes time for society to develop new rules and individuals to learn to handle new media. More complex ideas also need more time to be translated in a way relatable and entertaining to new audience.

Why men are seemingly more succeptable to the rightwing propaganda than women? Maybe because rightwing ideology has rather little to offer women even on populist level.

But than again you don’t seem to be interested in engaging with my arguments. So I will stop waisting my time.

gapbetweenus ,

Last time: rightwing populism offers easy solutions to complex problems of modern world ( like for example gender: conservatives say there are two and don’t bother thinking more about that topic). Modern media allows for easy spread of populism ( algorithms pushing media that creates engagement and creating information bubbles). The right wing populism offers men a clear role and place in society. Right wing populism also offers a clear role for women in society, but it’s almost as bad as a deal as immigrants get. Progressive and feminism also offers solutions to modern problem, but they are more complex. ( For example a more complex understanding of what gender ist). Complex ideas are more difficult to sell.

If you feel like engaging with my analysis/argument/greating card what ever you call it, you are welcome otherwise have a nice day.

gapbetweenus ,

Dude I literally gave you an example. I obviously can’t retell you whole feminist and other progressive theories and what they offer as solutions to each one of the problems we are facing in moder world.

My example was gender issues:

conservatives - there are two and don’t think more about it, you feel like you don’t fit, we teach to ignore feelings anyway.

progressive - offer a complex ever evolving understanding of gender as combination of culture and biology.

And that’s true for a lot of topics.

One is easily digestible the other takes time to understand.

gapbetweenus , (edited )

Until you realize that you are not asking simple questions, you will never understand why simple answers don’t work. The answer will always be complex, so it comes down to people being able to explain complex concepts in an entertaining and understandable manner, where we come back to the point I was making the whole time.

At least you almost understood me at the end. It’s something.

gapbetweenus ,

Sure, everyone is free to chose to be ignorant. Nothing I can do about it. But it’s sure funny that after days talking with me - that is your take away.

gapbetweenus ,

If you feel like it sure. But than again I spend quite some time trying to explain my point and you spend that time not engaging with what I say. You think you are asking a simple question and that progressives have nothing to offer as a solution. But when people try to explain to you that it’s not that simple and progressives have indeed solutions to offer, but those are complex - you just ignore everything.

But than what are you doing here if you think progressives have nothing to offer for men? Seems like you are wasting your time here.

gapbetweenus ,

I didn’t say you don’t understand, I said you don’t engage. Thanks for illustrating.

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