I hear all this talk about women's safety when out on the streets (a real issue which I do acknowledge) and how we as men need to do our part to make sure they feel comfortable, safe, and that we hold other men accountable when doing the same thing. Absolutely have no problem with this. But one of the main issues men have is a...
What? No. Women don’t feel safe around men because many men, when interacting with women, are fucking creeps.
How do you think they became creepy? I don't think that comes out of nowhere. Or do you think it's just innate that we're creepy at some point?
Even that interaction you had with that man was very frightening I understand that. It still doesn't take away from the original point I made. I'm also sure he also faces these expectations many men face even in today's society. It doesn't excuse what he did though.
The problem is that this dude, and guys in general who take the view point he espouses, and that you espouse here, is that they don’t see women as people to be friends with, they see us as objects to make them happy.
Where in my post did I even imply we don't see women as people?
A woman does not need to approach a man. You have nothing we require. We can exist perfectly fine on our own. That doesn’t mean men suddenly need to spend their every waking moment of interaction with a woman trying to get into her pants.
You wanna talk about being treated as a human being but you won't reciprocate the same. How do you think these men feel at the thought of going up to someone they find attractive and talk to them? If you understand how nerve-wracking it is for men then you wouldn't be expecting them to make the first move that easily. They don't need to approach a woman, that doesn't mean they don't have sexual needs they need to fulfill, women too. Men would feel desired if women also make the first move and do it very obviously.
Also, let's not kid ourselves here. If you're attracted to men in general, there are men out there that you do find attractive. That's reason enough for you to approach him.
Many women I've spoken to expect men to make the first move, and many men tried giving shy men tips on how to make the first move and let her see him as "the man" (a language I hate so much). When I suggest they go up to him and tell him they like him, they prefer to send signals and hope he picks them up instead.
Overall, I can tell from this comment you didn't read a single word I've written on my post. Nowhere did I suggest men should treat women as goalposts, in fact, I didn't even give any dating advice here at all.
It’s becomes creepy/scary when the guy doesn’t take no for an answer, or becomes aggressive when you say no.
Most women won't be saying no and for good reason. They will just try to excuse themselves out of the interaction, or give out a fake number to temporarily satisfy him until they get away from the situation or anything along those lines. Very rarely they'll say no because dudes will then overreact to being rejected and sometimes act violent (no doubt this comes from the ideas implanted in their heads by TRP/PUA). Many guys, when women exit the convo without actually saying 'no', end up confused what happened in those interactions. They don't know if they should've asked for a number or not, or if doing so would make women feel uncomfortable as maybe she thought it was just a harmless conversation as they're trying to be careful not to make anything sound sexual at the beginning. But the guys who do, they already reached a point where they don't care about what she thinks.
Also, why couldn't you start a conversation with a guy you find attractive in those exact same situations?
Also, the whole know your audience thing comes into play too. If I’m in a bar, or waiting in line, or idk any number of other things it’s one thing. But if I’m clearly in a hurry, or in the middle of doing something like loading my car full of groceries. Not now. Seriously.
This one I agree with but you can still feel unsafe in a bar or waiting in line if you don't particularly want to talk to a guy. Obviously if you're in a hurry and have your hands full with heavy bags then that's a no. It still doesn't change my point though.
One of the biggest reasons “men are scary” is that I KNOW how much stronger a man is, than I am. I’d put up a hell of a fight, if it ever came down to it, but I won’t win on power or speed (and I’m a runner). Then add in the experiences we all have, with creepy dudes, at best, and downright belonging in jail dudes at worst.
Then what's the point of having courtship rules if it means being in a situation with a man that's much stronger than you if he decides to become aggressive at some point? Couldn't you make the first move while having escape options? I know women plan escape routes before going on dates with men, could you not do the same here? For dudes that belong in jail, most men are not gonna be like this. The experiences you have with creepy men I guarantee comes with their facing these exact expectations I was talking about earlier. I genuinely don't think most men would feel the need to do this if we actively told society not to make them conform to those expectations.
Okay, so you're a more assertive woman then. It's not common I meet a woman like this. The majority of the women I've met and spoken to don't start conversations first, and many guys I know share that same story too. I think it's once in a while we'll meet someone who will outright tell us no but most of the women we try shooting our shot with won't be like that and you already know the reason why.
Also I didn't ask why they give an excuse so not sure why you brought that up.
Wouldn't the public space thing apply in the street as well, esp in well-populated areas on the street and not alleyways where there's no one around? Or maybe it depends which part of the street you're on.
As for the good faith thing, people are already mistrustful of men right from the get-go, so we're assumed to have bad intentions until we prove that we don't. This post covers that topic. https://www.instagram.com/p/CrQRpqUtbDz/?img_index=1 but yea it def makes it harder for us.
How many men did you have hitting on you when you were 10 or 11? Cuz that guy sounded like a real pedo. 16 I can understand, I had instances where I entered into conversations with women and then I found out they were under 18 which made me wanna exit the convo and end it on a non-awkward note quickly.
Also, why does the creepy aggressive guys have to be about male entitlement? I don't think most guys actually feel entitled to your time, but maybe it feels like that as that's mostly the kind of guy you're exposed to in that situation, whereas most non-entitled guys don't even try (or they did but have a lot of nerves in them that they end up saying the wrong things?). I think you're downplaying the effect these expectations have on men. A lot of dating advice for men is geared towards them being the pursuer and leading the interaction. In some instances, they're being encouraged to shoot their shot with a woman on the street (which has the potential to turn into street harassment if not handled properly.). Men are told repeatedly they have to play a numbers game, that they're inevitably are gonna make a woman feel uncomfortable (and unsafe) as we can't control how she would feel in those situations. Mainstream advice isn't giving men the proper tools they need to meet expectations, which is the huge reason they turn to the redpill. I'll share this video here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVdu74BYTwQ&ab_channel=AbaNPreach
So rather than just slapping 'male entitlement' onto this issue, I think it's worth considering why men are going to these lengths in the first place. Media has been encouraging mainstream dating advice such as be yourself, work on yourself, the right person will find you, just be friends, etc. It didn't stop men from going to the redpill and living with the problems we currently have right now as they feel they've been doing that their whole life and nothing really happens here.
By being gentlemen about it. Be confident in our approach, but be respectful when turned down.
And understand that many women react the way they do because of a series of negative experiences they've had. It's tragic that bad men ruin it for the good ones. But that shouldn't mean the good ones should give up.
I'm all for being able to accept a 'no' and moving on but as I mentioned in my comments, most women aren't gonna outright say no and instead find socially acceptable ways to exit a conversation. Many guys aren't aware of what's really going on here and just end up confused. In the worst case scenario, they'll continue trying to talk to her cuz they felt they didn't 'try enough' or in the best case scenario, they just leave things alone and go back to doing their own thing.
Because there are so few places that teach positive and respectful ways of dating. I really think this is an issue primarily of education (by other men and by male communities, as well as parents). Most boys are left to their own devices when it comes to this, which means peer groups, social media, and Hollywood. Is it any wonder they don't learn healthy behaviours?
I agree with that as well but one question. Do you agree that women can and are able to make the first move? Cuz my position is I think they do, but many of them won't make that first move and often times expect men to do it. So even with places to teach positive and respectful ways of dating, that pressure for men is still going to be there and I don't think the side effects of it are going to be pretty. Cuz if they're the ones who are still expected to approach, they're inevitably gonna make women feel more uncomfortable even if they mean well. But we already got there in the first place because of what I've described. This was mainly the reason why I suggested getting rid of these expectations first. I can go on and explain in detail exactly what men should do to approach a woman, start a conversation with her, read the signs and move on. But it's not easy taking that much emotional toll from this many rejections (which if it builds up can lead to a point where they lash out at another rejection.), it's also not easy for men to gauge weather they are successful or not which can result in them reading situations wrong, coming off a more aggressive than intended, or even into searching for methods to achieve said results (even if done from immoral means). If men don't feel expected to live up to these standards, then they can follow these healthy dating advice without feeling those same pressures I was talking about, which could mean women won't have to put up with much aggressive creepy behaviour they see from men like they currently do now.
Many men are lost when it came to mainstream dating advice as it doesn't deliver results. The only dating advice that's delivering results now are advice that tie our self worth into arbitrary values i.e if you are a man and can make a lot of women have sex with you, then you're valuable. If you're a woman and you can withhold sex for 3 months and make him fall in love with you before the sex, then you're valuable. Adversarial dynamics.
On a side note, I actually do know some healthy yet practical dating sources that I've learned from so they are out there, but TRP/PUA/FDS material are in heavy abundance and not much channels that discuss the nuances in dating. But they're not gonna do much as long as men feel they have to bear the burden of doing the heavy lifting initially all the time.
I'm not saying it can't change, but don't build your dating strategy on expecting it to change. That's how guys end up forever alone.
I'm not talking about dating strategies here, I'm talking about expectations. I'm all for men to make the first move, to initiate flirting, and even to escalate to sex. Having the skill to do that is very valuable, but the expectations men face to even live up to that are gonna lead to some unfavourable outcomes for both men and women. In terms of meeting women, it can make men to be aggressive in getting a number just to build options, and will often try tricks to ensure a woman has sex with them in a somewhat manipulative kind of way. It makes it physically and emotionally unsafe for everybody involved. It wouldn't even matter if there are healthy alternatives out there if they're still expected to do the heavy lifting initially.
And healthy dating advice that's currently out there are geared towards masculine men and feminine women, leaving the more feminine men in the dust as being in a position to lead for these types of men is exhausting, speaking from experience myself, and finding women who are okay with being in that leading position is very rare.
I had to make another post on this due to character limit, but yea I personally think it's too risky putting out healthy dating advice for men as if we're still expecting them to do the heavy lifting, women are still gonna have to put up with us approaching them even at times when they don't want us to, which means we could indirectly be encouraging harassment in these cases. And considering dating has a of factors, it's quite risky to do that if men feel like they gotta make something happen or if they don't and relax a little, then nothing will happen. And if they mess up on it, the woman ends up being very uncomfortable or he may say or do something the wrong way that really messes up the interaction.
Let's say a woman decides to make the first move on a man given the current practices we have established. Because the average man doesn't get that much attention, he's gonna latch onto any positive affection given to him, making him clingly and needy which can make it unsafe for her. If the man is secure enough to handle a direct approach from her, fine, but many men feel lonely so they're not emotionally developed to handle that (which again I link this back to male expectations.).
Me personally, I don't think we can have a conversation about healthy practical dating advice if we're still encouraging practices that potentially put women in a position where she constantly has to deal with men approaching her which is where most harassment cases comes from and why they feel perpetually unsafe.
This is primarily the reason why I suggested we should get rid of expectations for men first. You get rid of the expectations, they don't feel pressured, which means some of the lengths they would go to they won't need to go that far anymore as they feel they get enough attention & validation, enough feeling of being desired, so they can take it easy. This shouldn't stop them from taking their shot, if they see someone they find attractive they should shoot their shot if they want something to happen, they just won't feel that intense pressure to be doing so all the time.
I never approach women on the streets. That's weird!
That's cool dude, the guys are encouraged to do that tho
I don't think redpill is as toxic as people say. It is based on data and it hasn't been debunked. Data is reality.
What makes you say it's not as toxic as people say? There are definitely truths to some of the redpill, I just don't agree with how they approach dating as well.
I can see that. Even in bars, for example, if you're just out to grab dinner and go about your business, even you wouldn't want someone coming up to you and talking to you. I guess technically speaking, even street approaches aren't bad if you approach it properly. I've had a few instances where I've had great conversations with women on the street, I wouldn't recommend it though so maybe I just got lucky.
Those statistics from RAINN are a compilation of multiple NCVS studies consisting 9 years of data (it had years 2005-2014 listed there), whereas if you look at the NCVS (the study RAINN sources), it does list out statistics of incidents from both reported and unreported incidents, sure, but it also provides more information to look at. The total population in the US (as well as the total population of males and females) are listed there. The number of incidents that happened are a lot lower when you compare that to the general population, so the stats you're displaying right now are stats out of those incidents, not of the general population which was the point insta-stats were trying to make. Crime in general is very hard to measure as you have to look at multiple factors. However, most stats comes from what the victim reports, but many of these incidents could be done by the same perpetrator (or repeat offenders if you will).
On RAINN, it states that 433,648 Americans 12 years or older were sexually assaulted or rape per year. Now of course there are margin of error for these numbers since crime is very hard to measure but let's go with that number. The total population reported on the NCVS in 2021 are 279,188,570. If we do the math, then 433,648 / 279,188,570 (could be higher or lower as of this year) = 0.16% per year. It's likely the numbers presented on RAINN are coming from this 0.16%. The number of incidents that happened annually are roughly 4M (when these account for both men and women). Even in the FBI stats (another source RAINN looks at), the number of offenders are actually small compared to the number of victims on those incidents which would imply repeat offenders.
And both NCVS and NISVS shows that domestic violence, even severe, are 50/50 so this isn't a gendered issue.
Perusing and catcalling when done towards adults I'd say do come from male expectations, not when it's directed towards children (tho there have been times where girls who are the ages of 14-17 look like adults so confusion can come from there, it doesn't excuse the crimes tho) Even raping depending on how it's done could be due to male expectations. PUA/TRP do teach men many ways to get sex from women, even if it's through manipulation. And many of them have tips on how men can be "dominant" which I wouldn't be surprised if it does lead into rape.
if it was 100% “dating culture” that caused women to be afraid of men, then why are men aggressively perusing/catcalling/raping/grooming/etc children they aren’t supposed to date?
Maybe they reached a point where they're tired of putting themselves out there and went off the deep end from there. Notorious incels such as Elliot Rodger and Alek Minassian were both involved in PUA spaces before eventually reaching a point where they're out there killing people. And these are the extreme cases, most incels are not gonna reach this level. So I wouldn't be surprised if these men started off trying to go for grown women but then later on decided to target children instead for some power trip. I'm not saying this is a good thing and I think if you're intentionally going after children then this goes beyond male expectations and more of a mental issue with these men.
So all these numbers on RAINN are coming from that 0.16% incidents per year, but the reality of women is that they have to deal with men coming onto them based on the 2 videos I shared? I'm not saying that dating culture (or male expectations) are 100% the culprit, but I think those situations specifically are due to male expectations society has on men. This doesn't just include men who are out there targeting children (which becomes a completely different issue once they start going for children), but men as a whole.
Women's dating coach Matthew Hussey actually has a chart explaining this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9ONWHXCsrk&ab_channel=BrandonJohnson. A small minority of men are out here doing creepy shit, the rest of the men do approach women but oftentimes wait for the right moment. But it doesn't change the fact we still expect men to do the heavy lifting initially.
From what I remember, hypergamy is the concept of dating up in a way. That's fine, I did read Rollo Tomassi's book but that was a very long time ago. But it wasn't just him. I remember I used to watch small time redpill channels before fresh n fit or andrew tate came into the scene. Because of the hypergamy concept, many redpill have taught men to always maintain frame and power and to manipulate a woman to get sex. I even remember there was a book that had a chapter on how to cheat on a woman. That shit was messed up. Redpills also teach men that women love it when a man is dominant, that these are the lies they tell, these are the games she plays or if she chooses not to have sex with you, it means she sees you as beta or low value. This is where I take problem with the redpill. Everything else such as women wanting looks money status are okay given that we also understand we don't take this idea to the extreme.
To change the ones placed on men, you’d have to change the people placing those expectations, which is women
They aren't the only ones placing those expectations. I can count the handful of male content creators that are out there giving men advice on how to do this. One can argue that it could be due to primarily women expecting that from men sure, but men and women have been expecting men to take an active role in courtship for a very long time now.
We had this convo before on reddit. I read ARC a long time ago and he's one of the more straight forward examples which I do like. Even Rollo Tomassi had some good ideas but there were definitely things in there that didn't sit right with me. But from a lot of the redpill material I've read it's always some variation of "women don't love you" "you need to keep the masculine frame at all times" "you need to let her know you have options, tell her about other girls coming onto you" "you need to make them scared of losing you". I didn't know he had beef with Rollo though.
As for the whole dominant thing, the only thing where being a dominant could be a good thing is if it's discussed in kink communities (where they discuss important boundaries and safe words to ensure a safe play) or you follow healthy masculine examples. But a lot of redpillers ideas of masculinity is not based on kink or honest communication, a lot of communications are assumptions via nonverbals, and a lot of mental guessing since you're utilizing tactics to "display" value or show her you're high value or some shit like that.
This article is inspired by a Youtuber Caitlyn V who is a sex coach. I've watched some of her videos and I find them to be very informative, especially about sex. I'll link it here below...
The title is not me asking anything, it's a title of the video I linked to. Caitlyn V is the one who came up with it, not me.
Of course safety is a very legitimate concern, but it's been something that's been used to justify very distant behaviour and misandric treatment of men, especially when you look at statistics where it's only a very few men (who are repeat offenders btw) that are out there committing them (both reported and unreported incidents), yet people use these statistics to act as if a large majority of men are out there committing crimes which isn't true. There are situations where safety does apply, but when it's used to act as if every man is a potential offender in every normal interaction, that's when it becomes a problem.
For example, if a man were to come up to you and say hi, express interest or compliment you (in any context that isn't an isolated alleyway mind you), and your first instinct is to be distant from him, treat him as if all he wants is sex, or might murder or rape you in an initial meet, then that is overboard. Crime stats from nisvs and bjs shows they happen roughly 10% of the time in most incidents. The high likelihood of sex crimes happening is with someone they are familiar with. Still not large enough to treat as if every friend or romantic interest out there is gonna do it when you factor in the general male population.
Also, men make up majority of homicide victims even at the hands of other men, but even when we're talking about gendered violence in intimate settings, the rates of gender violence from female to male isn't that far apart from male to female yet that never gets talked about at all. Then there's also false allegations which are common enough yet it's still not legally recognized as a crime. Not enough men come out to share their stories due to public ridicule and even being seen as the bad guy, nor are men's issues being taken seriously by academia to be given a deeper look apart from government stats. Safety goes both ways my guy. But even with stats like this, you have to be careful not to apply this to all men and women (when you actually factor in the total male & female population, you find the number of offenders out there in a general context is less than 1% for both genders). Just because most crime offenders are men doesn't mean most men are out here committing crimes. I will link this post for you to see.
If you're talking about just talking to her, expressing interest, flirting, getting her contact information etc especially in public social environments, you're less likely to get assaulted in there. I'd go as far as to say that women have met men when they cold approach them when it was still a thing years ago and their relationships are just fine. What safety measures can you take here? Well if you're talking to a man at a bar, don't let him buy you a drink to avoid having it drugged, which doesn't mean you're not interested as you're still there talking to him. Likewise, if you meet a man on a street, keep your interactions in public and never engage him if there's a considerable distance between you and the public so your cries for help will be heard in case he tries something (tho meeting someone on the street is not something I would advice as safety concerns are pretty high here). Or if you fear he won't take rejection well, just give him a number even a fake one and gtfo of there. Or you just don't wanna talk to him or deal with another guy. You don't have to engage him at all if all you want to do is cut it short and leave, completely understandable. In all these interactions, make sure you have an open exit if you want out.
Going on a date with him? Inform your friends and keep your dates in the eye of public and exert your boundaries in case he wants to take you private. Afriad he might rape you when you guys get intimate? Set a recorder to record the interaction, let your friends know. In both cases where things get bad, pepper spray or attacking him in the genital area. Of course all of these are suggestion and the women themselves know these situations well enough to prepare for them. My point is you can engage openly with men while at the same time keeping your safety in mind.
Point is you can factor what could happen in these situations where you could be harmed in anyway, then come up with solutions to help counter them, but at the same time not need to fear of every man and live in perpetual fear of them constantly.
What would be your suggestion for being less combative? I have a tendency to over-explain my position so the context doesn't get misconstrued but perhaps there's a better way of having a discussion.
It's not just about the sex though, it's about being treated as less than human due to an over-heightened fear of men. I referenced her video to mostly address the last point and how what I've said would lead to this. I don't care if a woman is not down to have sex with me that's her choice.
Stalking does exist. I didn't include as it's not part of the normal social context I was painting earlier. Stalking happens when someone who you don't know or have little familiarity with is following you, so there's no way to include it nor excuse it. And then there's stalking from someone who you've known before but now is a stranger to you which is a much more difficult situation to deal with.
I specified those situations because A) these are the types of situations where potential predators are likely to take advantage and B) I've also acknowledge many of these are just suggestions from me as a man. These are also suggestions mentioned by women I have spoken with. Are they perfect? No. Do we need better solutions? Absolutely, we do. I also understand that these are very difficult situations to deal with, which is why even the suggestions I'm giving aren't always bullet-proof when they do happen (and same goes for men who experience false allegations or abuse as well, you can record it and back it up, doesn't mean it's not a difficult situation to be in), but it doesn't justify the fear of almost every guy out there which I have seen time and time again. I could've done a better job of not making dealing with those situations sound easy peasy while making my point.
It does feel like it sometimes. But that too is also something that men deal with as well, especially when feminist have dismissed our fears of false allegations using the 2% conviction, even though that too causes very serious trauma. I've even seen counter articles saying they got nothing to worry about, but 2% only represent cases that have been resolved, not the reported yet unresolved cases nor does is count the unreported incidents. By this logic, should men start treating women the way women have been treating men? Should men start viewing every woman as a potential liar who's out to accuse him of rape and SA? There's a reason men are going mgtow and avoiding interaction with women altogether. This is also something I don't agree with as it's just going to heighten the fear of a demographic.
Having statistics of victims killed in IPV would certainly be very valuable information (tho I think that would be classified under severe abuse, maybe that category needs to be broken down).
A societal push we need to establish is to actively send a message to society not to conform men to the male gender role. We've done a lot for women not to be confined in their own gender role, but then we just think "well if women aren't confined to their gender role then obviously men aren't as well" but there's a larger focus on the former than the latter, causing male stereotype to be strong even in the modern age. This is very important as because men trying to fulfill their gender role are likely the ones to go out approaching women on the street and trying their luck. I remember watching a street harassment video where a man explains why he does it, which was along the lines of showing her he's the man, that you gotta show her persistence, etc. This kind of thinking is not inate to any man. They're being taught by PUA/TRP that they need to do these things to reach the pinaccle of masculinity. But keep in mind PUA/TRP is rising cuz we as a society have never actively fought for men to step away from their gender roles, we just left them on their own to "they should figure out that also applies to them". This premise doesn't cover the more serious crimes such as murder, rape or SA I think in those cases serious mental issues are involved. But if we're talking about a woman's day to day experience with dealing with men coming up to her, then this is caused by society still telling men they gotta fulfill their gender role, thus creating a self-fulfilling prophecy.
And a note about police. I think everyone has to remember is that police are a 3rd party. They need to collect all information first before they could do anything. Unfortunately, we humans have a natural tendency to get spooked during very stressful events that we can forget to document it and ensure the perpetrator gets bought to the police. Add in the fact that criminals are smart enough to cover their tracks to not get caught, and you can see why bringing perps to the police is hard. A lack of concrete information usually makes their job harder. Sure we can go to the police and report the incident, but for them to actually pursue the case further, you'd have to be able to capture not only the perpetrator appearance and information, but also where they escaped to and if they dropped a trail.
The DOJ also puts out BJS when it comes to crime statistics. I did find a 2022 study that's female victim specific showing they were more likely to be killed by an intimate partner in 2021, but the incidents are very small when you compare the number of female victims reported on an ncvs study of that same year. The number of female victims in NCVS is approx 4 mil, intimate partner violence incidents were 400k (this number includes both male and female victims), but the female specific study had 4k female victims of ipv related homicide. So they exist.
I think using a psychologist and specialist would be a great idea in this case. Though how credible do you think it is? Cuz we're mostly going based off of a psychologist and specialist evaluation rather than concrete evidence. Or maybe psychology has an evaluation process of its own for it to be as credible as concrete evidence idk much about that bit honestly. But it is a good idea considering most SA incidents are usually done by someone known to the victim.
Can you point out where I put scare quotes on feminism? There's a lot of conflation with criticizing feminism with criticizing women which isn't the case. Feminism is an ideology which you can criticize, doesn't conflate with criticizing women. People already lump anyone who criticizes feminism as misogynist cus they buy into the idea that feminism is about equality, but it also promotes female empowerment which touches on the female identity, of course most people especially women are gonna identify with it (the same way men identify with the redpill movement as it promotes male empowerment). Redpill is already being criticized as a misogynistic hate group as it should be, but nobody questions the feminist ideology cuz most of them will push back hard against anyone who questions it, which is why this sub exists. The OG feminists came up with the patriarchy theory, modified the definition of toxic masculinty to make it correlate with general male behaviour. When you put those together, questioning that is almost always gonna make people think you're a misogynist. Once I actually questioned the patriarchy theory and did my own research, I found out it largely never even existed yet people believe we live in it. Same thing with the feminist ideology. The feminist ideology when it started wasn't egalitarian at all, it was actually very misandrist in the way it talked about men.
I heard their experiences before and I don't think it's unreasonable for them to act this way. I do think there's a vicious cycle at play that's making it happen. We've done a lot to free women from their traditional role, but we didn't do the same for men. Instead, we just said "oh since we freed women from their oppressive role, then it should obviously apply to men as well" not realizing that they had strong advocacy for the former but not the latter, which lead to society still having men conform to their expected gender role in the modern times.
We tell guys to be sensible and not bother them randomly, yet we also tell them that if they like a girl, they need to tell her. They're taught that if they don't do something, another guy will and he'd lost out on his chance. We set up dynamics where guys are told (either by society's words or actions) that if he doesn't take action and make the approach, then he won't get a date, laid, or a relationship. So they feel the pressure to take action. Because they feel this pressure, and mainstream society has just given them passive advice, they turn to alternative communities which will give them the practicality. That being the PUA/TRP. So they get practible dating tips, but also getting a lot of toxic ideology about women as well. It also doesn't help that there are some women out there referring to other guys saying "They're good with women" (I hate this phrase a lot actually) so hearing those words only reaffirms his perceived failures as a mate.
Because of what they're taught by PUA/TRP, they react poorly to simple rejections from women due to society telling them that their value is tied to how successful they are sexually. "She rejected you because she saw you as low value" "She likes a confident masculine man, not a weak feminine beta" "You're a nice guy, any woman would be lucky enough to have you" "She rejected you, you need rizz bro" "You're too nice and she didn't feel that confidence from you, you need to be more aggressive". It also doesn't help when these messages get reinforced when they see other guys who are genuinely confident and masculine at their core with a woman who enthusiastically enjoys his company. They are gonna associated this experience with the ideology they've been taught.
Guy gets mad a you for rejecting him? He interprets this as her saying he's not alpha or valuable enough for her (Thanks Redpill). Following her to a store is very reprehensible, but I'd also say it links back to the expectations as well. Someone grabs your butt at a concert? Maybe that guy thinks that's how you be an alpha and show her you're a 'sexual being' so she doesn't see you as a platonic friend. This doesn't excuse the guys behaviour, many of them are very reprehensible.
This isn't new. PUA/TRP likely doesn't exist in third-world countries, but gender roles are very much active there, and I do hear stories of guys attacking women over rejecting them.
Nobody is blaming women for the expectations, they weren't the ones who set it up. Maybe some women helped set it up, just like men did. But I think as long as we as a society don't actively fight to free men from the role of the pursuer, they're gonna feel the pressure to take action, and it'll result in more women being uncomfortable with guys approaching them, not being able to take rejection well.
Now you are right that most of the things you've listed don't rise to crimes. But there are a lot of women who have said they're afriad of men due to not wanting to be raped and murdered, which while that fear is very valid, it isn't statistically common as I mentioned in the previous replies, which never meant you can't exercise caution. However, with the situations you've laid out, they're very common for women to experience them and it doesn't need to rise to a level of a crime, which doesn't make it any less uncomfortable for them anyways.
This explanation isn't me trying to excuse these guys behaviour. Because they've learned it, they need to unlearn these behaviours to ensure we make women feel safe, I am all for that. But we also have to remember guys were put in a position where they feel they have to learn and do this stuff, so to ensure we don't have a large number of guys going up to make women feel uncomfortable (which still happens), we need to start telling society not to conform men to these roles and not make them feel pressured to be the pursuer all the time, tying his success to that, and finding self-worth through other means. And after we've reached a place where women and men are free from their gender role, come up with rules for a more safer courtship, allowing men and women to take initiative with the people they're interested in.
P.S I had a much more thought out reply before the redirection delete my entire message, so if this one comes off differently here, I do apologize. I was trying to remember things I've written out that time before it got deleted.
As for the guy thinking woman is 'leading him on'. Guys don't get compliments since they're expected to go up to her than the other way around. So when they do get a compliment from women, those emotions can be intense. So when he finds out she never meant anything more than that, it flips his world. Though in this case he could learn to manage his emotions so he can receive compliments well.
"They're operating under a worldview that's outdated an unrealistic" buddy is this really the takeaway?? It's not outdated if that expectation is still there. Also you brought up abusive men. Men don't need to go out approaching women and then become abusive from that. It's about gaining and maintaining control, which wasn't what I was talking about. I'm sorry to hear what happened to your friend tho.
"Society has not told us how to be good men" are u fking kidding me?? Society been telling us how to be "good men" and men are still going to PUA/TRP. This isn't about society encouraging bad behaviour in men, theyre not out here doing that. it's about putting gendered expectations on them in modern times and leaving them in the dust to figure shit out on their own. I'm saying we need to be teaching Society not to do that so men dont feel the pressure and have their self worth tied to sexual success like society makes it out to be. How in the world did you get my words mixed up?
As for the general tips you've laid out I got no problem with them except "learn about feminism" I did and I find out it wasn't about equality between men and women, but female superiority under the disguise of equality. No way in hell I'm supporting that misandrist ideology.
The main problem is the last two - that your value isn't defined by your success with women. THAT'S the worldview that needs to change, though I make no claim as to what society's telling men in this regard. Obviously a PUA is going to tell you the opposite, since they're selling you something. It's the same thing as a makeup company telling women they're ugly - it's good for business.
Hold up. Why don't you see the first one as one of the problems?
The Hallmark stereotype of the guy continuing to pursue a woman after she's rejected him (and then eventually getting her) is NOT a good man. Being aggressive is NOT being a good man.
We're not talking about media tho. The examples you're talking about have largely been in the 80s media. Today's media is nothing like this as it mostly portrays starting out as friends and hoping for something more to just happen between the characters. This is a very passive approach and not at all productive.
Many of your elaborations on what a "good man" is are just tips on how to live life authentically. What we consider "good" is heavily subjective. What you consider is good, someone else might consider standards apart from yours to be good. So just call these tips for what it really is, living authentically.
PUA/TRP are an easy answer because they are working within society's toxic worldview that we want to change.
I gotta break this down. Society as it stands doesn't share the viewpoint that men have to be aggressive, macho, at least not on the surface. Only PUA/TRP are teaching them that. Mainstream society tells them to just have confidence, to not bother them and leave them alone, just be friends with them, but they also expect men to be the initiators in talking to women at the same time. They assume them to just know how to deal with women which is a very unrealistic expectation to have of men and boys. PUA/TRP doesn't work because it works with society's 'toxic worldview' (as mainstream society views dating and relationships as something that just happens by luck), it works because it offers practicality that the mainstream failed to provide. Tips that they can use now and see results early on. That is the appeal and why it's rising.
Society says that "you don't need to conform yourself to gender roles" and by actions they show women don't need to, but by those same actions, they show men need to. And how do they do this? There's an over-emphasis on telling men to leave them alone and never bother them or they risk being a creep or making her feel uncomfortable. Society also says that "women can also make the first move" but let's be real here. Over 90% of women don't make the first move, and even when they do, their first move is sending out subtle signals which are hard to pick up, and then some of them wonder why those guys they tried 'hitting on' don't like them. They'd have to go up to a guy and say "Hey, I like you and wanna go out with you" just for them to get the message.
Feminism (I'm talking about ideology) hasn't said it's fucked up we're taught to be afraid of men. If anything, they contributed more to that with their campaigns. Yes, women have been wary of men for a long time, it didn't mean feminist (esp OG feminists) didn't play a part in making that worse.
It's the fact that too many men have been raised in a way that they make women feel unsafe.
Men weren't raised this way by general society. It actually raises men to not bother women and leave them alone (mostly a good thing until said guy expresses romantic interest in getting to know a woman, in which society says "if you like her, go up to her and let her know how you feel" how is he supposed to do that while following the above?) Guys make women feel unsafe due to their own mental issues, being raised by misogynists or traditionalists, etc. But in cases outside of it, guys are generally respectful of women and don't bother them. Once they resort to PUA/TRP, this is where they're likely to start learning this stuff and eventually make women feel unsafe following a misguided path to romantic success. This is where even good guys start making them feel uncomfortable. Tying in with step 2, our solution would be to figure out why exactly the guys are going to PUA/TRP, and what other alternative can we offer them that A) helps them take control of their dating lives and B) not make women feel uncomfortable. This would include asking questions like should we encourage approaching, expressing interest, anytime anywhere or not? And if we do, how do we do it to make sure all parties are satisfied?
As for your step 3, I generally agree with you. It's not just replacing problematic beliefs with new ones. There also needs to be practicality for a man or a woman to shoot their shot clearly yet ethically. We should encourage them that it's okay to make the first move, that it's okay to ask someone you find attractive out, it's okay to go after what you want, even if it means just casual sex, and develop guidelines to help get those while keeping everyone safe.
The guys who feel entitled are "black pilled", not "red pilled." I don't identify with any of the pills.
Both pills can feel entitled to sex. Hell you can be no pill and feel entitled to sex. Entitlement comes when you feel like women or men should give you sex for multiple reasons. For the redpiller, it means being the alpha. For the black piller, that means being chad. For the average joe, that means being a 'nice guy'. But all examples of guys with different background who'd feel entitled to sex.
Expecting men to initiate isn't ideal, but it's not the primary expectation that's hurting men.
I'd say it is. I'd say it's the main reason a lot of women put up with men approaching & making them uncomfortable. If 90% of women aren't gonna make the first move on you (cuz they themselves expect men to make the first move including feminists), then to have consistent success, you need to ramp up your efforts a lot higher or nothing will happen. You're downplaying the scale & importance this factor has on men.
I don't think a discussion of what "society" expects can happen without discussing media - it shapes our culture.
I agree with this statement, but it still doesn't change my explanation of why it doesn't match up to today's reality. Today's media is not like how you described it to be because the culture we live today isn't teaching men to pursue a woman after she's rejected him hoping she'll change her mind. That trope was played out in 80s media, not today's media.
Like you said, these are usually pieces of practical advice, and different things try to "pitch" you on different views - ultimately it's up to us to decide what we believe.
These issues are being touted by a large part of society (I'd say even society as a whole) and you wanna just shoehorn that to just "decide what you believe"?? How about we tell society to be consistent with that they preach (& I understand that takes years but we can't just leave it in the air like that.)
Why should you make the first move? Because for better or worse, that's the social contract right now.
Why is that the social contract? Men have been cast as pursuers and women pursued.
I don't think you're being sincere here. The answer to your first question is society conforming men to their gender role and you wanna minimize that to "that's the social contract right now". And your answer to that second question ignores the fact that women have already been freed from their role, they're just choosing not to approach as it's more convenient for them that way.
Approaching someone you're interested in is nerve-wracking, of course they don't wanna put themselves through that. Many anti-feminists claimed, "feminists want the benefits of being equal to men but don't want the responsibilities that come with it." This is how you're coming across rn with your replies.
so your primary goal in your approach is to make her comfortable.
I agree with this sentiment, but it still won't make them feel less comfortable when we do approach. We can be as polite and respectful as possible, but many women assume men just want sex from them or assume they might do something worse. And this isn't a few women, this is a lot of them. They already have a fear of every strange man she comes across like you've said, so it's not just our efforts, it's by sheer numbers of finding someone who'd at least give us a shot. A lot of single men are checking out of dating for this reason and are hoping luck will bring them a gf. The guys who won't check out of dating are the assholes who couldn't care less about women's safety.
"Hey, have you gotten yelled at for turning down a guy yet tonight? I can try to muster something up for you if you want."
I can tell you from experience that line you just came up here will make her even more uncomfortable guaranteed. When approaching a woman, your primary goal is to make her feel as relaxed when she's around you so she can engage comfortably. Your example statement brings back horrible memories of yelling, and women often do base their decisions on how they feel in the moment when interacting with a guy. She'll wanna get away from you faster when you frame it like that.
All in all, this feels like we're going in circles with this. I'm now at a point of stopping this discussion with you weather you reply or not.
I currently use fetlife as a way to connect with likeminded individuals. Sometimes they would make post about gender issues (usually female centered, and when it's male-centered it's usually about toxic male behaviour or how our problems are created by the 'patriarchy'.)...
The only signal I consider to be valid is consent for sex
Yup, and I'd also add if you're out her doing say cold approaches, then reading signals also applies here as well. Other than that, if we're talking about women showing interest, she needs to use their words cuz chances are, I may not even notice her if she's sending them, making me more likely to go for someone I am attracted to. It's only natural.
That is nonsense
Yea sometimes I get the feeling when they talk about men's issues, it's done in a way it talks about men's toxic behaviour being cause by not being more like women or some shit like that
100% agree with this. I have a personal qualifier. Whenever I talk to a woman and I get body language signals that indicate she doesn't want to talk to me or isn't interested in this conversation, or maybe she's just shy. What I would do is bring up the matter in an empathetic way and basically verbally gauge if she wants to talk or not. Now we're not entitled to a response to any question we ask and that's totally fine, but I believe approaching it this way qualifies women who verbalize their comfort with us rather than expecting us to read into the situation. So if she doesn't respond to that question the minute we bring it up, that tells us what we need to know about her communication style, and whether we as men want to engage with that or not.
As for the gentler guy situation, I written a recent article with solutions that I believe would help the gentler guy out. Lemme know what you think.
You're right it shouldn't. Men can absolutely find happiness and contentment through other men's. My point wasn't even about compliments, it was about addressing the other side of desirability that the original post talks about. Women do give out compliments to men as nothing more than a compliment, but how many of them take an active role in making a man feel wanted, making him feel like he's being seduced and pursued by her? This is the bit I was talking about.
I don’t know how else to describe it, but all my male friends and family are very unemotional. Not in the sense that they don’t feel anything, but that they are a lot better at handling them and I feel like I’m not. I’ve tried meditation, therapy, healthy eating and a better sleep schedule but nothing works. I still...
This definition of feminism is what they want you to think. If you actually read the ideologies behind OG feminists, what feminism means is far from just equality between men and women. It's just a misandrist movement that really stands for female superiority. The concepts they came up with such as patriarchy theory and male privilege really comes from blaming societies gender problems on men. Read Elizabeth Stato, Kate Millett, Andrea Dworkin, and idk this subs opinion on Janice Fiamengo but if you don't wanna do the grueling research, she can break it down for you. This will tell you everything you need to know about real feminism, not the brainwashed crap that hides behind a progressive mask that's out there.
so overtime i have been seeing the left after the convo's about men's place in society, and it has been dismal. There was this video of a trans man talking about the loneliness of men went viral on TikTok and A channel named Aba and Preach covered it from their perspective (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZF7k9nVNRw&t=1088s)...
The patriarchy has never existed in north American history. Most of the gendered oppression have been caused by the monarchy, specifically coverture practices. We had kings and queens (both of whom who have equal powers to create laws before it got taken away). You're also using the apax fallacy to judge men as a whole by the actions of a few men and women in power who are in the minority. The only reason we consider it a patriarchy is due to patriarchy theory (most positions in power are held by men, therefore men oppress women) which is not only rooted in apax fallacy, it's designed to encourage misandry on a societal level.
Feminism has never been about equality. Many 'proto-feminists' such as Mary Wollstonecraft who actually written books about the rights of women and men never called herself a feminist. It was academic feminists from 1848 and onwards who claimed them as such. The ideology of feminism where it classifies men as the oppressor class of women (thanks Elizabeth cady staton) and developing concepts such as the patriarchy theory (kate miller, andrea dworkin and the like) that IS misandry, yet it gaslight everyone into thinking it's about equality.
"Men saying "it's not fair" rings hollow when men have been oppressing women for millennia, and all women want is to be treated equally." Rich people in power have been oppressing everybody else for millennia of history, it just shows up differently based on gender. That's how these things have always been.
I'm starting to realize that even in the localized leftist communities we're involved, we need to start creating spaces where men can freely talk about these issues in a leftist environment. Unfortunately, we don't have much power to be open with it in our own communities due to how they'll react. Even more dangerous when they're brainwashed by ideas of men that make them automatically distrustful of men, even at the start.
I don't know much about Jordan Peterson. I had help from other figures before I discovered peterson personally. Aba and preach I've seen a lot of their channels and I like how nuanced they are with their takes. Of course I don't agree with all of them, but they were the first dudes who got me on the right mental track.
I don't know much about Jordan Peterson. I had help from other figures before I discovered peterson personally. Aba and preach I've seen a lot of their channels and I like how nuanced they are with their takes. Of course I don't agree with all of them, but they were the first dudes who got me on the right mental track.
The expectation society (men & women) has of men to approach and initiate an interaction is the reason women feel unsafe when a man does approach ( kbin.social )
I hear all this talk about women's safety when out on the streets (a real issue which I do acknowledge) and how we as men need to do our part to make sure they feel comfortable, safe, and that we hold other men accountable when doing the same thing. Absolutely have no problem with this. But one of the main issues men have is a...
What happens if you don't have sex for over a year? (We need better solutions) ( kbin.social )
This article is inspired by a Youtuber Caitlyn V who is a sex coach. I've watched some of her videos and I find them to be very informative, especially about sex. I'll link it here below...
Men's lack of received desirability. ( kbin.social )
I currently use fetlife as a way to connect with likeminded individuals. Sometimes they would make post about gender issues (usually female centered, and when it's male-centered it's usually about toxic male behaviour or how our problems are created by the 'patriarchy'.)...
I feel like less of a man because of how emotionally sensitive I am.
I don’t know how else to describe it, but all my male friends and family are very unemotional. Not in the sense that they don’t feel anything, but that they are a lot better at handling them and I feel like I’m not. I’ve tried meditation, therapy, healthy eating and a better sleep schedule but nothing works. I still...
why i think that men dont align with feminism and the left at large ( kbin.social )
so overtime i have been seeing the left after the convo's about men's place in society, and it has been dismal. There was this video of a trans man talking about the loneliness of men went viral on TikTok and A channel named Aba and Preach covered it from their perspective (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZF7k9nVNRw&t=1088s)...