Star Trek

Barx , in Was it a good thing that SNW explicitly said the Federation is socialist?

It's good because most of the American audience is too politically miseducated to recognize it otherwise.

halm , in Was it a good thing that SNW explicitly said the Federation is socialist?
@halm@leminal.space avatar

they explicitly use the term socialist to describe the Federation economy in SNW.

I'm going to need a source and context for this, apparently it flew by me in between all the parallel timeline nonsense required to shoehorn James Kirk into the series. Also, the "Gorn, but Xenomorphs" whiplash.

Generally speaking, I was fine with Socialism being a quiet part of Trek economics for 50+ years. I don't do a lot of mental gymnastics aligning the minutiae of a fictional future with contemporary concepts. Science fiction is a reflection of our real world, sure, but I have as little use for connecting the dots between 21st and 23rd economical concepts as I have for schematics for the replicators on Enterprise. A lot can happen in 2-300 years, especially when Trek concepts are metaphors and narrative shortcuts for telling stories about a future that recontextualise our own times.

But I get what you mean, it was always Socialism, wasn't it? Our real world has taken a weird polarised turn that makes Trek's space utopia seem more far fetched than it has for a long time. Even if "the culture wars" sounds like something the franchise might have introduced as a philosophically apt concept back in the '90s...

In that regard I too appreciate that the show's producers put their company scrip where Trek's mouth has been all those years. It seems that some very loud "culture warriors" never grokked that this was a deeply left (or at the very least humanist) leaning show. It's a little late in the day to spell it out for them that, yes — "Trekonomics" are frigging Socialist, but apparently that's the level of media illiteracy we're dealing with here.

So good on SNW for letting its red flag fly. It will probably piss off some people who still can't separate Socialism from whatever garbled idea of "Red scare" indoctrination has been passed down through generations. Whatever, they're pissed off no matter what.

It is ironic to me that this "Socialist" discourse is coming from a franchise(!) so ensconced in capitalist production and economic structures that it is gauged for marketability and profit. That's the big elephant in the room throughout all the "Trek so woke" outrage cycles: We'll never get to a post-scarcity future resembling Star trek by sitting around watching Star trek.

jimhensonslostpuppet OP ,
halm ,
@halm@leminal.space avatar

Got it. TBF, most of what comes out of Pella's mouth I interpret as sarcastic quips. She's the SNW version of Jett Reno, after all.

Not that she's wrong, it's just not exactly a franchise-wide decree of mission statement passed down from Alex Kurtzman or the Roddenberry estate...

jimhensonslostpuppet OP ,

The same episode says private ownership of things like cars no longer exists in the future, so it's clearly a description of the economy. I agree its almost a dismissal though, which is why I prefer The Orville's treatment of the no money post scarcity economy more.

halm , (edited )
@halm@leminal.space avatar

Yeah, but claiming that money is a thing of the show's past is as old as the show itself. The voyage home:
https://leminal.space/pictrs/image/f119fcb6-0c7e-421c-b3ba-081bf1657850.gif

Almost 30 years ago we got this great bit between Picard and Lily in First contact:

— The economics of the future are somewhat different. You see, money doesn't exist in the 24th century.

— No money? You mean you don't get paid?

— The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity.

This, of course, from a man with inherited real estate in La Barre... But there are several anticapitalist barbs in TNG and DS9, too.

[Edited first to add GIF, second because I got my wires crossed re private property and money]

jimhensonslostpuppet OP ,

None of those quotes say private ownership of cars is gone. Cars aren't the means of production btw, so I don't even agree with SNW here.

halm ,
@halm@leminal.space avatar

You're right, I wrote one thing but my head was still at the general economy matter! Will edit.

bionicjoey ,

There is definitely still private ownership in Star Trek. Replicator programs and other software are regularly seen as being treated like intellectual property. Schematics as well. You think anyone can just go down to their local print shop and replicate the parts for an Enterprise class ship themselves?

MudMan , (edited )
@MudMan@fedia.io avatar

I'm a bit shocked that nobody has pointed out the obvious:

The economics of Star Trek are super inconsistent and make no sense because multiple writers had a crack and they each liked and believed different things.

Sometimes it's a post-scarcity socialist utopia where money is obsolete. Other times, Picard invites someone out on a date and she answers "you buying?".

This is obvious enough that multiple people have tried to fix it, which as always in franchise worldbuilding only makes things less consistent and more complicated. So now some things just can't be properly replicated. Sometimes it's because of regulations and laws, other times it's because of technology limitations. Sometimes the Federation doesn't use money but they still have it for trade, other times they use money, just for random commodities.

The middle of the road for Trek seems to be some form of socialdemocracy where you're provided with anything you need and labor is largely vocational, but out in space there is enough variation over time and different areas that there is still a bit of a pseudo-capitalist economy even in regions where Federation-level post-scarcity tech is still available. Go into any more detail and the whole thing breaks down.

This goes for other political elements of the series, too. Picard gets super mad at the notion of endorsing religious beliefs in a prewarp society because he finds it barbaric. Meanwhile, Sisko is out there becoming Bajoran Space Jesus and everybody is just cool with that.

It's almost like Rick Berman's, Ronald D. Moore's and Gene Roddenberry's political beliefs were different from each other's, huh?

batmaniam ,

That and post-scarcity doesn't mean "zero scarcity". Like if someone wanted to create a picard funkpop the size of a planet, I don't think they'd be allowed the resource budget.

It's like how it doesn't matter where you live, if you want to buy on the silk road, you need bitcoin. Presumably even the federation can't just make latinum whenever they please, or we wouldn't see them haggle with it. Although, it would be fun to see that they could and just take the responsibility of not crashing non-federation cultures entire economies very seriously, either out of respect or treaty.

Damnit, I want a LD episode where the crew is frustrated and desperately wants to just "buy" their problem away but can't because an economist at command says it'll mean they have to rescue all these non-federation colonies that are currently self sufficient. Come to think of it it's right there with the "you break it you own it" concept of the prime directive.

Jaccident , in Was it a good thing that SNW explicitly said the Federation is socialist?

As I am not American I grew up with socialism being a positive connotation in day to day culture, so much so it’s wild to me that this needed to be veiled in Trek’s past. Star Trek should be as explicit as possible with this. “Hey, you want Utopia? This is how you earn it!”

jimhensonslostpuppet OP ,

Where are you if I may ask? And I think it may have been a dictate of Gene Roddenberry to not name which economic system won out, which is kind of a copout. But yeah it's refreshing to see it called what it is finally

AdlachGyfiawn ,
@AdlachGyfiawn@lemmygrad.ml avatar

Gene Roddenberry was a Maoist. Pretty sure this was a studio thing, not a Gene thing.

jimhensonslostpuppet OP ,

He was a Maoist?

AdlachGyfiawn ,
@AdlachGyfiawn@lemmygrad.ml avatar

According to his wife Majel, yes.

jimhensonslostpuppet OP ,

Where did you read this?

AdlachGyfiawn ,
@AdlachGyfiawn@lemmygrad.ml avatar

I admit I'm having trouble finding any transcript of the primary source. It's supposedly an answer she gave during a local convention and it's been repeated by enough websites citing each other that I don't know which one was the original.

jimhensonslostpuppet OP ,

Yeah I doubt it personally, it doesn't seem to match anything ever reflected in Star Trek. But if you find it, do tell me!

Jaccident ,

British. Specifically Scottish.

jimhensonslostpuppet OP ,

Ah yeah socialism I guess is a less dirty word in those parts.

cm0002 , in Was it a good thing that SNW explicitly said the Federation is socialist?

I think so, the federation is often seen and portrayed as close as you can get to a utopia (Since it's practically impossible to achieve a "true" utopia). They still have issues, make mistakes and wrong calls, and even some (albeit greatly reduced) crime.

So having more positive association/references for the term socialist, a term that most general people can have a connection with, cant hurt.

jimhensonslostpuppet OP ,

And it just seems accurate, at least with definitions of socialism I've read and studied

whats_all_this_then , in "Dilithium and You" a classic from '95

This was so god damn good!

reddig33 , (edited ) in What Went Wrong: Inside Paramount’s Failed Merger Talks and the Battle to Salvage the Company

What went wrong: The US government allowed studios to own streaming and broadcast channels. This resulted in extreme fragmentation of the market where programs were no longer sold on the open market and every studio felt like they had to open their own streaming channel to compete.

It didn’t work when studios owned movie theaters and so that was outlawed. Now we’ve come full circle and studios can buy movie theaters. That’s not going to save the theaters because the studio is going to put their product out for a week before shuffling it off to their streaming channel. Or worse, cancel it for a write off rather than let it air on competing networks.

ChicoSuave ,

A side effect of so many streaming channels is that they are all feeling the pressure to keep up with the catalog depth of Netflix and Disney/Hulu. This results in lots of mediocre content being produced to create the illusion of lots of stuff to watch. But no one wants to watch it or hasn't heard of it to build mind hype for it. All that content is wasted money to prop up a failing service that is bleeding every contender dry. There will be more like Paramount. Consolidation is coming.

Reverendender , in Fanhome to Return with New Starships This Fall with the Titan, Stargazer, and Farragut
@Reverendender@sh.itjust.works avatar

Titan got done dirty

Shadow , in Fanhome to Return with New Starships This Fall with the Titan, Stargazer, and Farragut
@Shadow@lemmy.ca avatar

I've been doing their giant enterprise model and pretty happy with it so far.

I'd love if they did a ds9 or defiant

RampantParanoia2365 , in Anson Mount (‘Star Trek: Strange New Worlds’): ‘We’re feeling even more emboldened’ to take ‘even bigger swings’

The musical episode was magical. Up with Once More with Feeling.

RampantParanoia2365 , in Make this ‘Star Trek’ motel [room] part of a geeky getaway on the Oregon coast

This honestly sounds like a bomb-ass motel, and not a cheap money-grab.

RampantParanoia2365 , in Star Trek: Prodigy Season 2 Beams to Netflix on July 1

Oh shit! I had no idea it was picked back up.

Evil_Shrubbery , in ‘Star Trek: Lower Decks’ Creator Mike McMahan On Making His “Dream Animated” Series: “Five Years Later, It Still Feels Like A Miracle”

By geeks, for geeks.

Its fantastic.

FordBeeblebrox ,

Every time I rewatch an episode I find another Easter egg, it really is Trek by and for Trekkies

EarMaster ,

It's like Futurama but in the Trek canon...

MindTraveller ,

Nah, Futurama is pessimistic. A thousand years passed and nothing got better. Humans just found new ways to screw each other over and more aliens to hate. Lower Decks is based and hopepilled.

Klear ,

Starfleet as fuck

aniki ,

lower decks lower decks!

mckean ,
@mckean@programming.dev avatar

Sure. but still, final space deserves some credit.

Evil_Shrubbery ,

It absolutely does, so epic & grand scale everything.

Corgana , in Make this ‘Star Trek’ motel [room] part of a geeky getaway on the Oregon coast
@Corgana@startrek.website avatar

I love this!!

AFKBRBChocolate , in I don't think we should be rooting for the Bell Riots but the pin is funny

I didn't know what they were and had to look it up

The Bell Riots were an event that took place in San Francisco on Earth in September 2024. They led to the end of the Sanctuary Districts and marked the real beginning of Humans working to find a lasting solution that would resolve social problems. This would set humanity on the path to founding the United Federation of Planets.

Hey, the date is coming up.

RampantParanoia2365 ,

How can you possibly not remember this? They happened 3 months from now.

AFKBRBChocolate ,

I'm old - there's just so much that has and hasn't happened...

hopesdead , in Make this ‘Star Trek’ motel [room] part of a geeky getaway on the Oregon coast
@hopesdead@startrek.website avatar

Did someone just watch Blue Valentine?

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