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Pons_Aelius ,

Counterpoint: Being proud of something you did not choose to participate in is a post-hoc rationalisation and just a bit self-delusional.

The statement: "I am proud to be a man", makes as much sense to me as "I am proud to be right-handed".

I am proud of several achievements in my life and ashamed of my behaviour in others. A statement I assume applies to most people. My gender has nothing to do with either.

I do not take credit for the achievements of others of my gender (or of the right-handed...) the same way that I am not responsible for their crimes.

Humans, by our social, tribal nature, love to divide the world into in-groups and out-groups usually to the detriment of all.

wagesj45 ,
@wagesj45@kbin.social avatar

Being gay or trans is also inherent, and because of societal push back, we've decided that being proud of those immutable attributes is appropriate. Masculinity gets a bad wrap in a lot of ways, and the healthy expressions of it should be something to be proud of, in my opinion.

Pons_Aelius ,

Good point but Lgbt+ people have been shamed and criminalised for simply existing for centuries. Their use of pride is in reaction to that imposed shame. The black pride movement in the 1970s is the same, a group rejecting an innate trait as a reason for shame.

While males have been the dominate gender for basically all of recorded history. While aspects of male behaviour have come under, in my opinion, much needed scrutiny in recent times, I think talking about the issues of males violence (against man and woman) and other problematic behaviours needing to change is a long way from telling a gay or trans person to stop existing.

wagesj45 ,
@wagesj45@kbin.social avatar

I'm not keeping score here. Even if I were, I wouldn't argue that men have it "as bad" as these hyper-marginalized groups. But I do think that there are positive and healthy aspects of masculinity that should be celebrated and that we should be proud of. Just like femininity.

thestrugglingstudent ,

Is it really true that men have been the dominant gender for most of history though? As I understand it, men and women have both been subject to rigid gender roles that they could not choose or get away from, so overall it was equally hard on everyone. It is just that with the advent of feminism, the struggles of women have received more of a focus.

Pons_Aelius ,

men and women have both been subject to rigid gender roles that they could not choose or get away from

Very true. But you must also consider that while the role in society for pretty much all people in pre-modern life was rigidly defined, in all cases that I have read about the role of women was much more constrained and restricted.

To give a specific example from a period I studied.

The life of a peasant man in Tudor England was rigidly defined and pretty much at the whim of his Lord. But inside his home he had the same authority over his wife and family. The average man had little rights, the average woman had none.

RandoCalrandian ,
@RandoCalrandian@kbin.social avatar

That’s bullshit

In no way we’re women more socially constrained than men, at any point in history

Simply look at all the male deaths. You’re putting that against your perception that women weren’t allowed to leave the kitchen (which is wrong) and just completely dismissing all of the far, far worse and more burdensome things men were expected to do under threat of violence and death

SentientRock209 ,

Adding on to this, it's also weird to me to never hear class or race acknowledged in their one dimensional view of history as something that solely benefited men at all times. Like are they gonna seriously argue the black men who were literally hunted down and tortured for sport in American history were still somehow above the white women sitting comfortable at the sides?

RandoCalrandian ,
@RandoCalrandian@kbin.social avatar

Apex fallacy and basically patriarchy theory, which we know to be wrong

A very few men had power in the past, as did a few women. To blame men as a whole is the same shaming bullshit that you justify lgbt people having pride for, contradicting your whole point.

Beverlyhillsman ,

This....

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