Like I don't think that prison is necessarily gonna reform anyone but I hate this idea that the church will, when (not sure on this specific one) it has a history of covering up abuse. Maaaaybe this guy has reformed but it doesn't sound like he's made things right by his victim, who due to a legal technicality cannot press charges against him, even though he's admitted to the crime. The system is broken, the church is broken.
At least one person in the audience is there to take a picture and point out how many people are still there ; )
What do you expect, the church to completely dissolve? I wouldn't be surprised if this church had some serious theological issues given its association with Trump, but one pastor, even the lead pastor, doing an evil doesn't mean the whole church is faulty.
...but one pastor, even the lead pastor, doing an evil doesn't mean the whole church is faulty.
You're probably right. The problem I'm running into is religion's history of causing literally every issue you can think of, up to and including war and everything that comes with it. So while that church may not be faulty, our failure to not use religion as a wall to hide atrocities behind sorta makes it automatically on the wrong side of the fence. Unless it proves otherwise, of course. Which, I think, it has failed to do so quite remarkably.
but one pastor, even the lead pastor, doing an evil doesn't mean the whole church is faulty.
There's a reason the saying is "one bad apple spoils the whole bunch." That kind of fraud and manipulation infects the leadership, wittingly or unwittingly, and I would not be shocked to learn that he's taught them some bad habits when it comes to outing bad leaders. I myself left another megachurch whose story was very similar to this one, and while it may not be exactly the same, it's uncanny how the stories rhyme.
I don't think it can really infect them if they didn't know about the crime until recently. That being said, I understand your concern. Christians are meant to be built different, though. Jesus was a friend of sinners. We're not assumed to be corrupted because we hung around someone who was corrupt.
The way my church's denomination does it, when a pastor steps down, they pull in a new pastor from another church, which also alleviates this concern. I say this not to defend Gateway Church (their new pastor is the old pastor's son,) but to demonstrate that not all churches have the problems you hear about.
I'm aware of how other churches operate. "Not all churches, tho" isn't particularly relevant to the topic, and if you want to get into it, I have plenty to say about the Church as an institution. But that's not what I was referring to with my comment.
I wasn't implying that the congregants are somehow tainted by association or that they are somehow "secretly influenced to be pedophiles." What I meant is that I know for a fact that followers behave like their leaders, and he likely employed all kinds of mental gymnastics, scriptural torturing, and whatever other tricks to justify why he shouldn't face justice.
That influence is increased the closer you are to that leader, which is why it wouldn't surprise me if the leadership that was under him still contains the tendrils of his abusive influence and subsequently influences the congregants in lesser ways.
It's not just about good vs evil. It's about love and forgiveness. That's not to say pedophiles should get off scot free, because it's also wisdom - it's very unwise to keep a pedophile in a position where they have access to kids like that.
But I digress. If the org is imploded, all the churchgoers will have to find a new church, and many won't bother. Unless the church has serious theological issues (which just about no church would think they do,) that wouldn't be good. Instead, it's possible to remove the bad apple and replace them with someone else. The way my church's denomination does it, whenever a pastor steps down, the new pastor comes from another church, which helps to make sure there isn't lasting corruption. From what I read about this one, the new pastor is the old pastor's son, so...
If the org is imploded, all the churchgoers will have to find a new church, and many won’t bother
oh's nos. moving on.
Unless the church has serious theological issues
if their pastors are pedophiles I'd suggest it has some serious fucking theological issues.
The way my church’s denomination does it, whenever a pastor steps down, the new pastor comes from another church, which helps to make sure there isn’t lasting corruption.
displaying a bare minimum of sense at least....
From what I read about this one, the new pastor is the old pastor’s son, so…
Only works on Trump. Plus, he didn't try to go on the right wing grift circuit and invoke the magic words that make the crazies forget how critical thinking works (e.g. cancelled, woke, lawfare, Jesus, false flag, globalists, deep state operatives, etc.).
I know nothing about religion outside of movies and such - why would he wear a suit? Isn't he supposed to wear something like a robe? Or at the very least a white collar band?
Situational as to the church. In my experience the less overtly church-like the house of worship, the less likely the pastor is going to dress like what we'd consider a pastor. Football stadium/theater mega church? guys lookin' like a used car salesman. Full stone with the statuary on it? Dudes fit is gonna be immaculate.
Different denominations have different traditions. Christianity is not a monolith and has split many, many, many times.
My experience is that the more separated the church is from the oldest denominations, the less likely the priest or pastor is to wear "traditional" garb. The church in the picture is some flavour of southern evangelical, and so is pretty far removed from Roman Catholicism.
I grew up in a reformed Calvinist tradition and the pastors always wore suits. In later years, younger pastors would even ditch the jacket in the summer.
On the first point I had a thought about this the other day. My grandma told me we're supposed to wear "our best" to church and someone wearing jeans would wind her up big time. Then I thought, "Uh, none of these clothes existed when Jesus was alive. If anything we should wear tunics."
Take everything with i say with a grain of salt/do some searching to get more specifics of what I say, its been years since I've really considered myself properly Catholic and a lot of what I learned is a bit rusty.
It depends on the flavor of Christianity, Catholics and some Protestant denominations that are still traditionally pretty close to Catholics, like the Anglicans, use the all black outfit with the Roman collar, that black collar with the white tab for their day to day outfits and the wear specific robes and garments when performing Mass.
I'm not sure of the details of the various flavors of Orthodox, but the bit I have seen tend to also use the various robes and other garments.
Some flavors of Protestant tend to focus on their leadership being part of the people and being in service to others (and actually do a lot of community service) tend to wear fairly plain common clothes.
And then the big Protestant mega churches that operate more like tax havens than actual ministries serving the community, tend to wear the nice suits and fly in their private jets.
I read the article. This is way worse than pedophilia. He repeatedly sexually assaulted a girl from age twelve to age sixteen when he was in his twenties.
It conjures images of a world where professional paedophiles get sponsored endorsements, there are hobby stores for amateur paedophiles, and Tucker Carlson complains there's too much CSAM involving immigrants.
Pedophiles have many different paths. All of them are sexually attracted to children. Some run away to be hermits. Others molest or rape children. Others seek therapy. Some take medication to castrate themselves and eliminate all sexual urges entirely. Some write disgusting fiction. Some make disgusting art. Still others seek out CSAM. Some roleplay their desires with partners their own age.
This guy had all these options and chose the worst possible one.
Pedophiles have many different paths. All of pedophiles are sexually attracted to children. Some run away to be hermits. Others molest or rape children. Others seek therapy. Some take medication to castrate themselves and eliminate all sexual urges entirely. Some write disgusting fiction. Some make disgusting art. Still others seek out CSAM. Some roleplay their desires with partners their own age.
This guy had all these options and chose the worst possible one.
The problem is your statement seems to be downplaying the actual crime which is rape of a child. The argument is that needs to be said very clearly. This guy raped a child. Let's not dilute that. It seems you're trying to dilute it. Make sure to acknowledge the specific crime and the specific victim.
I mean honestly it kind of feels like you're making and all lives matter kind of argument here.
edit: you're not the person I originally replied to, these comments are mostly pointed at their comments.
but I maintain: GET FUCKED.
If anything that's how /u/confusedbytheBasics comments read.
IMHO, these child didling fucks should be put to death for the good of society once verified.
to help your @njm1314 reading comprehension along: NO, it's not an "all lives matter" argument, it's a "ITS ALL PEDOPHEILIA AND THERE AREN'T SHADES OF GREY INVOLVED" argument.
Your deeply emotional desire to mulch people trying to fix themselves has been duly noted.
In the real world, we like it when people who would do crimes never do.
Funnily, CSA prevention experts actually find you enabling; you make their jobs harder. Why do you want abusers to hide from us, hm? Are you a CIA plant?
You have no idea the mental gymnastics zealots can get up to.
My grandmother was a fanatical roman catholic and she swore that all the stories about priests diddling little kids were a conspiracy by the rest of the world to discredit Catholicism.
I'll add that there's an element of denial and fear at losing community. For most ex-Christians I know, losing that familiar community is the last thing to go during their deconstruction. They might not believe in anything that's taught anymore, but leaving behind that community means isolation for a while and having to build new friendships and support systems.
So zealotry is definitely a component, but don't discount fear of being an outcast, either.
