xkcd #2912: Cursive Letters ( imgs.xkcd.com )

xkcd.com/2912

Alt text:

𝓘 𝓽𝓱𝓲𝓷𝓴 𝓬𝓪𝓹𝓲𝓽𝓪𝓵 𝓛 𝓲𝓼 𝓹𝓻𝓸𝓫𝓪𝓫𝓵𝔂 𝓽𝓱𝓮 𝓶𝓸𝓼𝓽 𝓯𝓾𝓷 𝓽𝓸 𝔀𝓻𝓲𝓽𝓮, 𝓽𝓱𝓸𝓾𝓰𝓱 𝓵𝓸𝔀𝓮𝓻𝓬𝓪𝓼𝓮 𝓺 𝓲𝓼 𝓪𝓵𝓼𝓸 𝓪 𝓼𝓽𝓻𝓸𝓷𝓰 𝓬𝓸𝓷𝓽𝓮𝓷𝓭𝓮𝓻.

Ilflish ,

Cursive f is actually way to high the whole point of cursive is to learn to write fast and cursive f is slower. I’m sure a large amount of people aren’t even aware it’s an f ( the middle right two)

Manmoth ,

The one furthest to the right is a “J”

HopFlop ,

Which one? The bottom one to the right is a ,z" (the thing looking like a 3).

Manmoth ,

Far right, second one from the bottom.

Jorgelino ,

It’s really no more time consuming than any other letter. It might look a bit bigger, bit it’s just two loops, which is a very quick and natural movement that you’ll be doing a lot if you write in cursive.

It’s more about following the flow of the lines than the size of the letters. Each letter should feed into the next one, so you’ll barely need to take your hand off the paper for the same word. Even if you choose to make an especially “high f”, that’d still take less than a second of you know what you’re doing.

(Also, as has already been pointed out, second one is a J)

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Serious question for people younger than me: How did you come up with a signature if you didn’t learn cursive?

lseif ,

just write your name really fast without lifting the pen

NikkiDimes ,

I just do a lil scribble and call it a day. Signatures are kind of stupid anyway.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

They are not especially useful now, but back before everything was computerized, signing your name on a check or a credit card receipt was a way you could help stop people from committing fraud if they stole your card or your checkbook.

Malfeasant ,

I’m almost 50 and I’ve always had a signature that looks like I just wrote my name like normal. I’ve had a few people try to tell me it’s not a “real” signature. WTFever, it’s mine, and if someone tries to fake it, you’ll still be able to tell the difference, isn’t that the whole point?

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I don’t really care how people sign their name if they’re fine with it, but you are honestly the only person around my age that wasn’t taught to sign their name in cursive.

Malfeasant ,

Well, I was taught to, I just have a penchant for not doing what I’m told…

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I can respect that.

daltotron ,

I just scrawl my name in comic sans

BluesF ,

I put an unreasonable amount of effort into a cool signature. But I so rarely have to sign anything these days! Disappointing.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I guess it’s because I have a lot of health issues, but I have to sign my name all the time. Occasionally when I pay with a card too.

HopFlop ,

In Germany, we did learn cursive (and its still being taught). Although barely anyone uses it anymore, I find it very useful for exams

HenryWong327 ,
@HenryWong327@lemmy.ml avatar

Wait your signature is supposed to just be your name in cursive? But then wouldn’t that defeat the point? I thought in the olden days it was supposed to be like a proof that you were the right person since you knew how your signature was written.

Anyways, for my signature I just kinda designed it. It was ages ago so I forgot my process, but it was deliberate and I remember making a whole bunch of sketches before finding one I liked. And since then I’ve incrementally improved it.

Seasoned_Greetings ,

Although cursive has a unified design, everyone writes cursive a little differently. The idea is that cursive is designed to write whole words in a single stroke. The concept of a secure signature in cursive is that the more work a single stroke is, the more uniquely a person writes it.

That is to say, even though you may have the same name as someone else, it’s extremely unlikely that a person can copy your nuances precisely enough to forge your signature on the fly. It isn’t a perfect system, but it’s easy enough to verify a signature that people could do it before technology was around to aid that process.

That concept is also why they say the actual design of your signature is less important than the consistency of doing it the same every time.

tigeruppercut ,
@tigeruppercut@lemmy.zip avatar

There was some guy years and years ago who tried to see how ridiculous he could make his signature and have a store still accept it. As I recall he got to the point of drawing pictures on the receipt. Eventually he tried to buy something expensive like a TV for +1000 bucks before someone finally said something.

Of course now that search engines suck I’m having trouble finding the writeup he did.

SpaceCowboy ,
@SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

At one time illiterate people could just mark an X. The security of a signature isn’t really in it’s uniqueness or it’s relationship with your name. Security of a signature is down to the fact that you could to prison for forgery if you fake someone else’s signature.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Everyone I know my age and older signs their name in an approximation of cursive, but in a unique way.

lud ,

I just write my name like I usually write it?

It’s very rare for me to sign anything anyways.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Just in print?

lud ,

Yeah, but badly print because I have terrible handwriting.

A signature can be whatever the fuck you want.

It can be a drawing of a pony if you so desire.

Also is it still possible to sign when doing a card purchase where you live? I have never seen anyone ever do that and some stores explicitly disallow it.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I can’t remember when I last had to do it, but I definitely remember having to do the stupid ‘sign with your finger’ thing somewhere recently. I’m guessing companies like Square that serve smaller businesses must still do it.

garzaza77 ,

what the hell is cursive?!

GuitarAbuser ,

It is the way of typing in the pic

echodot ,

I always was taught to call it joined up but it’s the same thing. Basically where all of the letters just flow from one to the next so it looks like you’re writing in Arabic. The key is to make it as illegible as possible.

RIP_Cheems ,
@RIP_Cheems@lemmy.world avatar

It’s gets so much worse when you use russian cursive.

BigBananaDealer ,
@BigBananaDealer@lemm.ee avatar

how bad is russian doctor handwriting?

RIP_Cheems ,
@RIP_Cheems@lemmy.world avatar

Not russian doctor handwriting, Russian cursive https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/56fce49c-2a3d-4f05-845d-edf9982afd72.jpeg

MycelialMass ,

That cant be real ahah thats impossible to decipher

RIP_Cheems , (edited )
@RIP_Cheems@lemmy.world avatar

Oh it’s real, and just to rub salt in a wound, here’s a doctor using russian cursive on an entire form, or at the very least some kind of student, courtesy of Wikipedia https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/1ee2119e-372a-44c9-bc91-4244a37d79d4.jpeg

lud ,

Try Google lens. It can read it somehow.

Tier1BuildABear ,
@Tier1BuildABear@lemmy.world avatar

Hard disagree on this one, the lowercase k needs to be way more to the right, or at the very least should have h i and l to the left of it. k looks so kool.

aulin ,

Looking at this, while there is some overlap, it’s very apparent that US cursive is not the same as Swedish cursive. E.g. lower case x starting from the top? O_O

echodot ,

That’s interesting I’ve just realized that when I write x I start at the bottom left if I’m writing it normal but in the top left if doing cursive.

Huh.

aulin ,

We were taught to start all capital letters at the top and all lowercase letters (as they need to be connected) in the bottom left (or just left for some like v, that don’t really have a bottom left).

Particularly for x, they said we might as well learn to start x from bottom left when printing as well, because then it’ll be consistent with the cursive, but I find that when given the choice, I’m more naturally drawn to go top left to bottom right and then top right to bottom left, so that’s what I do when not writing cursive.

Edit: See my other comment for the cursive we were taught.

Dasus ,

Idk about “very” apparent, though.

I’m Finnish and we have much the same alphabet, and our cursive is derived from the same as the Swedish one, which is Neo-Gothic cursive, which does do the X from top down, as do we Finns.

…wikimedia.org/…/300px-D'Nealian_Cursive.svg.png

I did check the Swedish one and it is weird you do it differently.

aulin ,

But how do you you even write it when starting top left? Do you just write it as a backslash and then go back and add the second stroke once the word is finished? Or do you do some convoluted thing where you go in every direction while perfectly retracing your old strokes, to draw the whole thing in one go?

Dasus ,

Same as with dotting i’s or crossing t’s, really.

I often found that pictures speak louder than words, and it’s pictured in my earlier link.

aulin ,

Okay. And yeah, now that you mention it, I see that there are some tiny symbols there. 😅 It’s funny how every time I hear about cursive writing online it always sounds as if it’s one single thing that’s the same everywhere, but it isn’t. Oh, and also in our cursive, we don’t go back to cross t’s, because that’s part of the character from the beginning.

tigeruppercut ,
@tigeruppercut@lemmy.zip avatar

I think you’re looking at the uppercase x. The lowercase x is just below that and the stroke starts at the bottom left.

aulin ,

No, I’m looking at the lowercase one. I don’t understand why it comes in at bottom left but goes to top left before starting the letter.

tigeruppercut ,
@tigeruppercut@lemmy.zip avatar

When you have a letter that finishes at the bottom (like n in the word manx), the x starts at the bottom left and then rises to form the first downward stroke just like in the printed x. If you have a letter that finishes at the top like o, the x stroke doesn’t start at the bottom. See the sample below in the word fox

https://lemmy.zip/pictrs/image/b7116c8e-1b84-4ef6-b12e-24951ecade70.webp

aulin ,

Yes, I gathered. I was just wondering what the reason is for starting the x at the top, when it’s easier, imo, to do as we do and start at the bottom.

Kolanaki ,
@Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

“Rirruto?”

“Those are Z’s”

“Well they look like R’s to me.”

“That’s not fair! Rizzuto’s not even a word, he’s a baseball player! I hate school! I’m never coming back!”

Pulptastic ,

Would you like to try the word “buzz”?

Etterra ,

Let’s be honest. You didn’t like learning cursive, you didn’t like having to write full-ass papers in cursive because the computer lab was always full as a teenager, and you don’t like writing cursive now because it means you probably have to borrow a pen from somebody at work who never washes their hands. Sincerely, a 45 year old.

Kolanaki ,
@Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

You guys were forced to actually use it? Outside of when I was taught it, no one demanded it. In fact, most teachers I had discouraged it, or hand written at all. They wanted everything typed in 12 point Times New Roman. Double spaced. Indented. With footers and headers.

I’m 39.

echodot ,

I have a thing with my wrist where I don’t have great fine motor control and my handwriting is adversely affected. I once handed in a whole essay and my teacher couldn’t read any of it. I also couldn’t remember what I had written so I essentially had to make it up on the spot again.

After that no one wanted me to write in cursive anymore. But my handwriting was still pretty bad given the whole wrist thing so they decided that I had dyslexia (I didn’t but that’s apparently an easier excuse than my wrist doesn’t work) so I had to scribe. Finally they admitted that maybe a laptop would be a better idea. The whole thing took them about 5 or 6 years to get through though. With them demanding cursive for at least the first two years.

I don’t think I’ve written anything down at all beyond maybe “happy birthday” in about 25 years.

ouRKaoS ,

You’re just below the curve of home computers becoming ubiquitous. I’m 43, and through most of middle school papers had to be handwritten in cursive.

At home my computer was from Radio Shack, hooked to a TV, and had a Daisy Wheel printer - fonts were hardware. I got my first IBM PC in 8th grade, with a 20mb hard drive & dual 5 1/4" floppies.

Kolanaki ,
@Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

fonts were hardware

What, like a printing press?

ouRKaoS ,

More like a typewriter, but instead of individual arms for each key, it was a wheel with all the letters that would spin to the correct position before a little piston would whack it. Also, yes, it was loud as fuck.

en.wikipedia.org/…/File%3AXerox_Roman_PS_Daisywhe…

Kolanaki ,
@Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

Oh I’ve seen these… I thought they were for a typewriter, since they were among the things with the typewriter my mom had when I was a kid. Neat!

ouRKaoS ,

I have seen electric typewriters that used the same tech, so it may have been a typewriter wheel you saw.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Yep. 46 here. Rough drafts in print, final drafts in cursive in elementary school.

SimplyTadpole ,
@SimplyTadpole@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

In my school, we were taught to/made to write in cursive since like 4. And then everyone complained that my handwriting was illegible chicken scratch and yelled at me to write more legibly.

Then I switched to non-cursive (whatever you call writing the same shape as the text in the page here?) and immediately my text became legible. Then everyone switched to complaining that I write too slow.

I just can’t win.

viking ,
@viking@infosec.pub avatar

I’m 39 as well, and up until 10th grade it was mandatory, only afterwards it was left to us to choose. And that’s across all subjects.

We were not allowed to use computers to prepare papers in high school until grade 12 I think.

tigeruppercut ,
@tigeruppercut@lemmy.zip avatar

I’m older than that and I can’t believe your teachers actually wanted to try decipher shitty kid writing. After like 6th grade for me everyone pretty much turned up their noses at anything that wasn’t typed, and as a teacher now I can say I hate when my students try to hand in something handwritten.

Even before computers I think at least at the college level using typewriters was pretty common. When I was a kid I found a stash of college papers from my folks and a lot of it was done on a typewriter.

viking ,
@viking@infosec.pub avatar

They didn’t want to decipher it, if our handwriting was bad, we got points deducted or could ultimately fail.

My handwriting is still shit though.

HopFlop ,

I found cursive to be the most useful thing ever for exams because of its speed compared to writing block letters.

affiliate ,

nothing in this life feels better than writing a cursive f. i put my whole arm into it. those things are the highlights of anything i write

readthemessage ,

I am very proud of my F/f, too. I do them beautifully because it is the first letter of my name.

rob_t_firefly ,
@rob_t_firefly@lemmy.world avatar

The first letter of my name is R and I agree, my handwriting is crap but my Rs are great. I’m a fan of my Rs.

psud ,

I am sad that my legal name is made only of boring letters other than a single g

affiliate ,

you could always change it to something that’s more fun to write, like gyzgfblf

Empricorn ,

You may be cool, but you’ll never be “Capital L” cool…

Magnetar ,

Today is you 𝓛ucky day.

Philharmonic3 ,

I do not agree that uppercase G is easier to decipher than uppercase S

PunnyName , (edited )

They’re both pretty fucking bad.

aulin ,

Are either of them even in the picture? If so they definitely don’t look like the ones I learned in school.

EssentialCoffee ,

They’re right next to each other.

aulin ,

Oh, wtf! I just looked up US cursive, and that thing is apparently a G? The horror! That’s certainly not what a cursive G looks like where I’m from. And your capital S just looks like a bigger lowercase s. Same with capital A. Why does it look like a lowercase a?!

Edit: The cursive we learned 30 years ago, for comparison: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Svssfb.jpg

Jorgelino ,

Yeah, it was about the same for me too.

Although, to be fair, a lot of these aren’t really consistent, even within the same country. I’ve seen both types of S and A around, though it’s the first time i see that weird G.

Honestly, most of the more complicated ones aren’t really used where i’m from at all. Like, if you’re really trying to be fancy, sure, i could see it, but the writing i see day to day is a lot more simplified. Whole point is to write fast anyway.

captain_aggravated ,
@captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works avatar

I ended up kind of creating my own cursive “font” because I thought several of the choices for letter shapes were, in graphological parlance, “Just completely fucking retarded.” Like the lowercase S being a slightly pointy loop. I devised my own capital T as well, and jettisoned that Q that looks like a 2.

I wrote in completely illegible cursive until about halfway through college when I started using a laptop for all assignments. On a decent keyboard I can peak at 104 wpm. On the very rare occasion I do have to pick up a pen and write with it anymore, I’m usually jotting down measurements or something, or slopping out some squiggles that will just have to suffice as my signature.

I don’t see teaching cursive to children as a particularly valuable usage of time, at this point it might be worth teaching them to read it, but proficiency in writing it is not valuable.

whoreticulture ,

Hard disagree. I am an ecologist and paper notes are very common just for reasons of practicality, taking notes on a tablet or field computer can be really difficult with glare, managing power, overheating, rain. The faster and more legibley you can write, the better you’ll be on the job. I doubt that ecology is the only field where this is true. Not everyone has a dang office job.

captain_aggravated ,
@captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works avatar

handwriting proficiency should be taught. cursive can fuck off.

whoreticulture ,

But cursive is more useful and practical than writing print. If you’re taking notes, you want to take them quickly and still be legible. Cursive is a system for this.

captain_aggravated ,
@captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works avatar

I would argue shorthand is probably more valuable than cursive for this.

whoreticulture ,

I don’t disagree with that! Maybe we should start learning shorthand.

I do think it is valuable to read cursive though, for historical study. I joined an informal LGBT history study group and we got to spend a lot of time reading love letters people sent each other. Not everything is transcribed, so I’m glad I was taught to read cursive.

You could argue that only historians should learn it, but I think that historical research is something that should be widely accessible, and also it’s easier for young kids to learn language skills. I don’t think there is any harm in teaching cursive.

captain_aggravated ,
@captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works avatar

Reading cursive should be a thing, I think with kids being so digital centric you could probably just teach it to them as a font? It is, after all, supposed to be English text written in the Latin alphabet, just all joined up.

PunnyName ,

If you want legible from me, I’ll be continuing to use print.

whoreticulture ,

fair lol

samus12345 ,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

I just modified v to be pointy because otherwise I couldn’t make it distinguishable from u.

AlligatorBlizzard ,

I think kids should be introduced to it, so they recognize what it is if they find one of great grandma’s letters, for instance (my grandmother wrote the grocery lists in cursive so I became proficient in reading it), and it’s a good way of helping kids practice fine motor skills without doing as many of those godawful penmanship exercises. But I think we need to expand art education for kids and I think cursive and calligraphy should be taught in art classes moreso than in their regular classrooms.

Jorgelino ,

In my experience everyone has their own brand of cursive anyway. And there’s already a lot of variation in the “official” ones depending where you’re from, so it doesn’t really matter as long as it’s close enough to be understandable.

Anticorp ,

They’re all easy to read when you know cursive.

shadearg , (edited )
@shadearg@lemmy.world avatar

Exactly. Randall Munroe turns 40 before the end of this year.

Scraping the bottom of the barrel, I guess?

Edit: In the 80s, children were seriously evaluated for learning disabilty if they could not read cursive, as it was considered a developmental necessity. They didn’t joke around with this back then.

UsernameIsTooLon ,

insert language is easy to read when you know insert language

I think part of the problem lies in how cursive directly derived from print letters so shit like S and Z makes you wonder who came up with this.

psud ,

When you know the right cursive. We used slightly clearer letter shapes in Australia in the 80s

Though knowing any cursive makes it easier to decode unfamiliar ones

Honytawk ,

Machine coding is also easy to read if you know binary

Good thing it is the 21st century where those things aren’t needed anymore

Imgonnatrythis ,

Lowercase b should be lower on y axis

asteriskeverything ,

Honorable shoutout to words that have “br”

TimewornTraveler ,

little b should be in the low left corner

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