EnglishMobster

EnglishMobster , 10 months ago (edited 10 months ago)

Murrieta

That's the problem right there.

Murrieta is very much part of an island of conservativism in the rest of California. It's very much a green grass, "whites only" kind of place. Oodles of Mormons. Not exactly friendly to LGBTQ folk.

I lived there. I went to high school there. It was where I voted for the first time.

I remember in high school thinking a girl was cute and she invited me over on a Sunday morning. She picked me up for what I thought was going to be a day of just hanging out at her place - but instead, she dragged me to her Mormon church. The preacher spoke out about how proud they were that they were able to pass Prop 8 (which banned gay marriage in California), how hard they fought for it, and how evil LGBTQ folk were. I was disgusted, but at the time I couldn't drive (and thus couldn't leave). When I finally escaped, I made a point to never talk to that girl again.

That is absolutely par for the course in Murrieta (and Temecula). They live in a total bubble and refuse to acknowledge that they're part of California proper. A friendly reminder that the Temecula Valley School District (which represents both Murrieta and Temecula) is being sued by the State of California because they decided to promote racism and anti-LGBTQ sentiment within schools, in violation of state law.

Public Counsel, the nonprofit group that filed the lawsuit on behalf of Temecula students, parents and teachers, claims the policy has been used by school board members to stop teaching "any concepts that conflict with their ideological viewpoints, including the history of the LGBTQ rights movement and the existence of racism in today's society."

Temecula is full of bigots, all hiding under their mask. But when you live there, you see the mask slip.

EnglishMobster , 11 months ago

Lemmy doesn't have the functionality like Kbin does. It's one reason why Kbin exists.

EnglishMobster , 11 months ago

Search for a community just like you would elsewhere.

This place would be @[email protected], so you'd search that to find this place on the fediverse. Lemmy communities use the same format.

EnglishMobster , 11 months ago

That is a known bug at the moment. I believe there is a fix in review right now but Codeberg seems to be down.

EnglishMobster , 11 months ago

There is. Lemmy.ml is currently shadowbanning kbin for unknown reasons.

Lemmy.ml is blocking the bots kbin uses for federation. The devs have ignored anyone asking why. It's been weeks and only applies to Lemmy.ml, so it appears to be intentional. They're running slightly different code on their flagship site than what all the other instances use (which makes me wonder what else Lemmy.ml has changed compared to what's publicly available).

EnglishMobster , 11 months ago (edited 11 months ago)

The article does kind of define it, but does a poor job.

An emotionally sticky node is a user who makes other users stay on the site. Examples of this for Reddit would be accounts like poem_for_your_sprog, ShittyWatercolor, Shittymorph, or wil.

There are others, of course, that you may not be able to name - /r/California was mostly kept alive by /u/BlankVerse, who posted 85% of all the articles to that subreddit. You'd never notice unless you paid attention to usernames. Similarly, a small percentage of people made a large percentage of Reddit's OC. Typically you couldn't name them, either, but you'd know if they weren't there because they gave Reddit a soul.

Reddit started off as a bunch of bots reposting links they found, without even a comment section. Eventually real people came and started posting nerd stuff (like programming articles) alongside the bots. Enough of a critical mass was created that a comment section was added, making old Reddit look like what HackerNews or Tildes look like today. The programming and porn were sent to different subsections of the site for the people who don't want to see such things (these became the first subreddits). The default subreddits were slowly created, then anyone could make their own subreddits for their own topics.

Still, it was largely posts to things found elsewhere. People went to Reddit as part of their trip through several other websites. They'd usually gather what they found during that trip and repost it to Reddit. OC wasn't expected; reposts were encouraged. By the early 2010s, a lot of the pictures on Reddit were mainly 4chan reposts. People who had a lot of stuff saved from other sites were the "emotionally sticky nodes" and people would come to Reddit to see stuff that was explicitly gathered from everywhere else - hence why Reddit was the "frontpage of the internet", an aggregate of what people had found elsewhere.

Eventually we started to see OC for the first time. Advice Animals sprung from 4chan memes and really started to go viral across Reddit. Reddit users started making their own native advice animal formats and now Reddit was no longer just "things from elsewhere on the internet" but new content you couldn't see elsewhere. Soon these people making OC became the "emotionally sticky nodes", keeping users on the site.

And, of course, there are other things who were "emotionally sticky" without necessarily posting memes. Reddit became a great place to aggregate news at-a-glance. This is because of the moderation of the news and politics subreddits, ensuring that things posted to their subs were actual articles, post names were real headlines (no editorializing!), and the page wasn't littered with random YouTube videos or self-posts or images or whatever. Good moderation meant that you could go to /r/news or /r/worldnews and trust that you were getting the same effect as looking at the headlines of a newspaper. Similarly, the 2012 election had /r/politics become a great source of information and discussion about the US Presidental Race. These sorts of things made Reddit a useful site and kept people coming back.

Even now, Reddit still has "emotionally sticky" places. They could be individual users like the ones I mentioned above, or they could be entire subreddits that aren't quite captured here on Lemmy/Kbin yet. Neither Lemmy nor Kbin have great mod tools, and a lot of mod teams here are inexperienced and not as aggressive as Reddit mod teams are. You can argue this is a good thing, but aggressive moderation really matters for places like the news communities where legitimacy comes from users avoiding editorializing. This means that these places aren't a good replacement for Reddit (yet) - subreddits where moderation is important are still "emotionally sticky" because nothing can compete with them. (This is why it's important that Lemmy develop good mod teams and good mod tools!)

There are oodles of niche communities that you've never heard of that haven't come over, either - for example, !modeltrains (@modeltrains) and !nscalemodeltrains are niche communities on Reddit, but neither of their fediverse counterparts have much activity (other than me). People on Reddit thus don't want to leave their niche community because it doesn't have any activity over here, and because there's no activity over here, nobody wants to come over here to start activity - meaning there's no activity over here. That's why it's important to make sure you contribute often to niche communities you care about, even if your content isn't "good" - there needs to be something to lure emotionally sticky nodes here and get people to jump over.

That said, some places absolutely have made the jump successfully (!196). But for most places there's a while to go before Reddit gets to the point where it can't maintain itself as a site.

EnglishMobster , 11 months ago

You don't need an ID to drive. You need a driver's license. And these licenses now suddenly don't count in DeSantisWorld.

Driving without an ID is not a crime. Driving without a license is. I can see the distinction being lost when you disagree with the person politically though.

EnglishMobster , 11 months ago

I love everyone always saying "Lemmy, what's XYZ?" or whatever not realizing there's a good chunk of people not on Lemmy.

It does get annoying when I see Lemmy-specific questions in my feed, though.

EnglishMobster , 11 months ago (edited 11 months ago)

My worry that many articles are going to have a biased take on the situation, or be coming from Mastodon etc. where things don't map up 1:1.

My perspective:

I moderate a medium-sized magazine here on Kbin (@Disneyland, about 264 subscribers here and a couple dozen elsewhere on the fediverse). You can't moderate a magazine from another instance, nor can you redirect a magazine somewhere else. This means I effectively must use Kbin.social, especially since I also mod the /r/Disneyland subreddit and have been redirecting people to our magazine for a month now.

I personally would like to see Threads here, if only because @disneyparks would be a nice fit to have automatically included in our microblog tab. I can't go to another instance that supports Threads because again - moderators on Kbin can't be from different instances. And besides - me being on another instance doesn't stop the fact that I couldn't have content from Threads automatically added here. So my options are basically "deal with it" or "abandon the community here".

It really sucks that there is a way that could make my magazine better by including actual official Disney sources in our Disney-themed magazine, but some people are afraid of EEE they are trying to keep that from everyone. I'd rather federate with Threads and allow users to individually block the domain if they desire.

• If EEE is the worry, fight them at the "extend" step, not the "embrace" one.
• If mountains of spam is the worry - people have to manually follow people from other instances for those posts to federate to Kbin, so not every single account will magically pop up here on Kbin. It'll be accounts that people on Kbin have followed; a small chunk.
• Vice-versa, Threads is full of casual users who don't know much about the fediverse. Any Threads users interacting on Kbin are those who understand the fediverse and go out of their way to subscribe to Kbin magazines from Threads. We know from past history that these are going to be a minority; even within the fediverse, Mastodon is huge (and tech-savvy) but we see very few Mastodon folks posting to Kbin threads.
• If "Facebook is sucking up all my data" is the worry, they could do that anyway. The fediverse is open and public; they can easily set up a "shadow instance" that federates everywhere and slurps everything. They don't need Threads for that.

If people just don't want to see Threads users at all, making the block button defederate on the account level would be wonderful. If people choose to block Threads, then Threads users couldn't see them and vice versa. People who see Threads as a potential useful resource (myself, for the magazine I mod) would still be able to have that content in the community here on Kbin. Everyone's happy.

EnglishMobster , 11 months ago (edited 11 months ago)

I am using "my magazine" as a colloquial term for "the magazine I moderate", obviously not as the term for "the magazine I own". I trust you know that and are arguing in bad faith.

You can go start your own magazine on another instance if you wish. The presence of one does not preclude competition. Heck, you can even start another one here; we had similar subreddits on Reddit. The /r/WaltDisneyWorld folks were an example of a bad mod team on a power trip, which caused splinter subreddits to pop up like /r/DisneyWorld. The /r/WaltDisneyWorld mod team came here to Kbin and sure enough Kbin has already splintered too - there's @WaltDisneyWorld (original WaltDisneyWorld mods), @DisneyWorld, and @wdw.

If you think you can do a good job running a Disneyland magazine, I'm not going to stop you from making DisneylandResort or DisneyParks or going to Lemmy and making something there. Competition is good and healthy.

---

But... I don't think you truly appreciate how much work moderating a community can be. I literally was a mod for 1 sizeable subreddit (I was a mod on 2-3 other subs, technically, but they had subscriber counts in the dozens and rarely saw activity).

I'd love to show you what moderating a subreddit with 500k subscribers really looks like. It gets bad. Gore, scat, porn, hate, bigotry, and trolling - you deal with it all. Death threats in modmail to boot. And we were just 500k subs! The former default subs have millions and they are far worse, I've been told.

We ran a community for folks to discuss a single topic: the Disneyland Resort in Anaheim, CA. Not Hong Kong Disneyland, not Disneyland Paris, not Walt Disney World. Those have their own subreddits, with their own communities and their own mod team (plus /r/disneyparks). I wasn't associated with any of them outside of small formalities; I only got to know them during the blackout when we did look into coordinating our own site. (More on that later.)

If each mod team didn't do their job, each sub would be overrun with posts that don't fit the sub. We're constantly removing posts about WDW or Disneyland Paris or Shanghai Disneyland or whatever. We're constantly removing posts from people talking about general Disney stuff that doesn't have anything to do with the park. It's a lot of work to curate a feed, and when the effort is made in good faith we redirect people to more appropriate places to talk about the things they're passionate about.

People joined that subreddit to talk about the Disneyland in Anaheim; many didn't care about Shanghai Disneyland or whatever. If we missed something and a person posts about the "wrong" park (which happens sometimes, even with AutoMod), the community generally comes in and downvotes the post (and sometimes insults the user). From their perspective, they're seeing some content they don't care about/want in their feed. And technically, per Reddiquette, that's what the downvote button is "supposed" to be for - sorting out things that don't belong.

It's like posting a TikTok link to /r/YoutubeHaiku or a picture to /r/videos - each community has a set of rules and a social contract to enforce them. That's what makes a good community with relevant content that makes you come back. Without a good mod team, a subreddit gets overrun with posts that don't fit the sub - you can see some of that here on Lemmy/Kbin already. This is both because mod tools are lacking (no AutoMod) and because people are changing instances as they see fit. For example, @Starwars is abandoned, I think - the only(!!!) mod hasn't been active in weeks. I've seen things here like videos in the politics communities and other things that wouldn't fly with larger mod teams.

(Hit max character length, continued as a reply)

EnglishMobster , 11 months ago (edited 11 months ago)

(Continued from parent due to post length constraints.)

You say we should move off-site. There's already a large general-purpose forum for Disney: MiceChat. It's a classic non-federated forum, from a bygone age of the internet. People who aren't attached to a Reddit-like interface typically are on MiceChat, or one of the thousands of Disney Facebook groups. They're the largest Disney community on the internet.

We discussed running our own Disney-themed Kbin instance (like /r/StarTrek and /r/Android both did), that would be a federated competitor to MiceChat. The idea still appeals to me. But the fact of the matter is that we didn't have the time nor money to be admins. I have a full-time job where I can't be spending time working as an admin all day (and - fun fact - I actually did work for Disney, formerly), and I don't have the legal know-how to host a website.

Making a community on someone else's instance doesn't have those same issues. kbin.social has a sane admin team and is permissive with federation, giving the magazine a large reach (but keeping out hate speech and trolls). There are people on here who want to participate in their hobbies - like going to Disneyland, which for many is a hobby - or who want to use the community as a resource (and the Disneyland subreddit was a resource, too).

Because at the end of the day - it is a lot of work, but seeing a thriving community is rewarding. You grow attached to it. It's why people play simulation games; you help shepard people along, make people happy, and watch the line go up. It's not "ego" any more than playing a city builder game is "ego". I certainly never threw my weight around on Reddit; our subreddit was positively tiny compared to others. The only time I used my green badge on Reddit was to give people warnings or make community-wide announcements. The only time I mentioned I was a mod elsewhere was when I needed a "fun fact" to introduce myself with at work/school or when it's directly relevant (like letting people on the fediverse know that the magazine here is run by the same team that ran it on Reddit).

The Disneyland subreddit was a good community, IMO. The whole mod team did a lot of work to keep it good, and I was proud to help out. Connecting people with the resources they need and letting them show off the things that made them excited, while keeping the spambots and trolls at bay and redirecting lost folks to the right spot. It's something you need to experience to understand.

One thing that was missing was Disney's direct involvement. Disney never contacted us. Even when I worked for them - corporate knew I was a mod there but left us alone since it was considered my personal business (my only restriction was that I couldn't say I was speaking officially on behalf of the company). As long as the sidebar said that we were fan-run, Disney never said a peep. Because Disney didn't have any official presence on Reddit, folks would frequently repost news shared by Disney to the subreddit directly.

Threads gives us a unique opportunity to be able to connect folks to official Disney social media right here on Kbin. They'd be able to interact 2-way without needing to make a Threads account themselves (and without Disney needing to come here officially). It's really the best thing that could happen for that type of community, and it would be a shame to lose out on it.

EnglishMobster , 11 months ago

It does not right now, but there is an open ticket to fix this: https://codeberg.org/Kbin/kbin-core/issues/374

EnglishMobster , 11 months ago (edited 11 months ago)

So I'm on the /r/Disneyland mod team and we decided to move here to @Disneyland / !Disneyland during the blackout. We're still directing users here in the subreddit's sidebar, although the mod team collectively decided to reopen the sub on Reddit after the admins started threatening mods directly.

There were a couple options floated when we were considering the move:

• Make our own instance. Traditional forums like MiceChat have survived for decades; we'd effectively be a fediverse version of MiceChat. The main subject would be Disney, but we'd have Disneyland communities, WDW communities, Marvel communities, Star Wars communities, etc. This was shot down because we didn't have the funding, time, manpower, or legal expertise to host things ourselves at any kind of scale. All us mods have day jobs and we don't want to take on a full-time admin role; other Disney subs likewise didn't seem terribly excited about joining in. Shout-out to /r/startrek for starting https://startrek.website and /r/Android for https://lemdro.id/, but it wasn't in the cards for us.
• Join a Lemmy server. This was before Lemmy.world existed, so our options were limited. We basically had Lemmy.ml, Beehaw.org, or sh.itjust.works. We disagree with the admins of Lemmy.ml on a fundamental level; Beehaw doesn't allow new communities; sh.itjust.works was maybe doable but we didn't want to deal with that URL for a Disney-themed community. Waiting for a new general-purpose instance to appear (what Lemmy.world became) just wasn't in the cards since I wanted it to be open during the blackout.
• Join kbin.social. At the time, there were no other Kbin instances - fedia.io didn't exist yet. But Kbin seemed very flexible (direct Mastodon integration is a plus!), the admin team was just Ernest (but he had a good head on his shoulders), it was my personal fediverse site of choice, and it was growing quickly. At the time we made the call, federation didn't work as expected but it was promised to be fixed (and it has been; we now federate rather broadly).

We've gotten some organic activity on the Disneyland magazine over here on Kbin, which is nice because it shows we don't need to keep the community on life support. The big downside to Kbin (and Lemmy!) is that mod tools basically don't exist; it's going to be tricky without AutoMod long-term. Once Kbin has an API it should be trivial to remake AutoMod for Kbin though, assuming the API has moderation actions.

EnglishMobster , 11 months ago

I think a fix is coming in the next update. But you can also install Firefox for Android and it should fix it - plus you can then grab a bunch of Tampermonkey scripts for appending the instance names, auto-hiding posts you've already voted on, etc.

EnglishMobster , 11 months ago

There's also Century Club (more than 100k karma) and the 10 Year Club (account older than 10 years).

EnglishMobster , 11 months ago

I was surprised when I got one; it just appeared in my inbox one day. When my account turned 11 I decided to see if /r/11yearclub existed and it did, but I had to message the mods and join manually.

I had to request to join Century Club manually too; I didn't even notice I could do it until I had 200k karma...

EnglishMobster , 11 months ago

Century Club had good vibes. It was generally like the same 5 users posting, though. I'd comment occasionally but I didn't follow it closely.

EnglishMobster , 11 months ago

I really liked /r/latestagecapitalism but I got banned for talking smack about China, and how the authoritarianism of the USSR and its child states didn't line up with the values they tried to espouse.

Permanently banned. Appeal ignored. Disappointing, but good riddance I suppose.

EnglishMobster , 1 year ago

This is already happening.

Bots are being used to astroturf the protests on Reddit. You can see at the bottom how this so-called "user" responds "as an AI language program..."

EnglishMobster , 1 year ago

Reddit was the same way.

You have /r/gaming. /r/games. /r/truegaming. /r/videogames. /r/videogame. Etc.

Each community was slightly different in subtle ways, but some people were subscribed to multiple (basically identical) communities. Others self-sorted into different communities based on moderation style and community vibes.

Not to mention that your idea of how federation should work kind of ignores moderation and community preferences. Communities hosted on Beehaw are tightly moderated. There may be other communities that want something less strict. How do these two reconcile with one another? What happens if a conversation is removed on one instance but kept around on another?

If local mods only have local power, they can get quickly overwhelmed as you effectively need a mod team on every single instance. Smaller instances wouldn't necessarily have the manpower to have their own dedicated mods for literally everything.

EnglishMobster , 1 year ago

Not necessarily? I guess it depends on what magazines you read.

A lot of the magazines I've read over the years are collections of things submitted by readers. Model Railroader magazine is a bunch of model railroads submitted by people across the US. They'll pick a few to feature, but they're all basically submitted by readership and it's fairly interactive.

Lego Magazine was the same way when I was a kid. While a lot of it was about upcoming Lego products, there was a significant section that featured Lego builds made and submitted by the community.

For newspapers, I'd absolutely agree that it implies an editorial staff and no input from readers. But magazines (to me) have always had a focus on community involvement.

IMO, it translates quite well to the web, and the fact that there's a big ol' "+" button with "add new article" as an option makes it pretty obvious that this isn't just a static read-only place.

My main hangup was "make new post" vs "make.new article". "Make new post" will make a Twitter-style short-form post in the "microblog" side; "make new article" goes as a Reddit-style self-post thread on the threads side. But once I understood that it was pretty straightforward, and I use both pretty regularly (articles for self-posts I'd normally post to Reddit, posts for little one-off thoughts or things I'd otherwise put on Twitter).

Kbin is planned to work with more fediverse stuff at some point as well. It already supports Pixelfed (Instagram) and PeerTube (YouTube). Mobilizon (fediverse event planner) support is on the roadmap, which would let event planning appear natively as well.

So if you ran a magazine based around a TV show, you'd be able to add a Mobilizon event that corresponds to when a new episode comes out. Then that event would serve as a "megathread" for episode discussion once the episode airs. It's a pretty neat idea, since it intuitively reminds people when things are and gives the community a place to discuss.