I had to stop Picard's first episode because I burst out laughing when the superhero jump up the stairs happened.
I finished 2 seasons of Discover before I stopped watching.
I don't think I'll go back and try to finish either series, but I could stand DISC way longer.
I made it to about episode 5 with Discovery (the one with the security officer getting mauled because she walked into that cage with the wild animal unarmed) by actively giving it more chances than it deserved, not sure how you managed to watch a whole two seasons of it.
Lorca got me through discovery for a season or two and then he was gone, I don't think I watched anything beyond it. I hear it's only gotten worse, somehow
For me the first season was arguably one of the worst. I didn't start enjoying it until around S3 with the time jump, but it's been hit or miss since then. I just can't stand how, for lack of a better word, sappy the show can be with the constant "cut to crewperson's face giving an approving nod while Burnham gives a motivational, whispered speech backed by heartwarming music." It all seems so over the top, lazy, and gimmicky. Rather than write better stories, they want to pull on your heartstrings with cheap tropes to keep people watching.
The last season of discovery is the only one I have left and I'm finishing it begrudgingly. I really don't like that show. Huge fan of strange new worlds, but discovery felt like a cw version of a Disney star wars show.
One gets the feeling that Paramount senior management have been paying more attention to review-bombed scores on Rotten Tomatoes, IMDb etc. and YouTubers than to actual viewing minutes and audience size.
While Nielsen stats are only for the United States, it’s clear that Paramount has been doing vastly better by Discovery than any of the naysayers have claimed.
Remember when every new episode came out the ragebait youtube channels would proclaim it has already been super secret tripled cancelled? And yet they kept producing more episodes post-cancellation for reasons I never quite could follow?
They're also paying attention to when they need to renegotiate contracts. After the strikes, studio leadership has really doubled down on not giving an inch on writers' and actors' salaries even if it means cancelling a successful show. It's more valuable to them to keep workers in a state of perpetual gig work than anything they'd make from the show.
Contract length is a fair point. But so is the over reliance on US SGA talent in a show that’s trying to reach a global audience and represent a future that’s diverse.
Discovery had only five seasons but in calendar years, in which contracts are written, it was seven years from production of the pilot. So, regardless of the impact of the strikes, further seasons would have required higher salaries for Martin-Green, Rapp, Cruz and Wiseman.
One has to wonder if that was a consideration in the decision on Lower Decks as well.
Also, while federal and provincial governments give significant tax credits for the ACTRA-contract labour costs of Canadian and Ontario resident actors (50%), up until Rennie joined this season the Discovery main cast were all full SGA scale, although the seasonal ‘big bass’ have all been Canadian or resident since season 2. That can make a huge difference to the overall cost.
All to say, if talent salaries were the key driver of decisions, CBS Studios should put more casting in the hands of their Canadian casting director.
One has to then of Canadian/resident main cast will also put a cap on the potential number of seasons for SNW.
It will be interesting to see whether CBS Studios will go for the tax credit when they cast the cadet roles for Starfleet Academy.
I don’t think any rewrite would be needed. Almost the whole season was filmed not knowing it was the last. The few scenes they filmed with that knowledge were just to put a nice cap on the series. Probably something like the last scene in All Good Things, which wouldn’t have prevented a TNG season 8 if the winds suddenly changed.
That said, I think the most we can hope for is for this to encourage them to incorporate more Disco elements into Academy. I don’t see them backing down on this being the final season.
I barely even noticed they got replaced. They never got to have any story involvement or character development, just like most of the rest of the bridge crew in Discovery.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but I didn't realize there were conspiracy theories floating around about them being fired or some nonsense. I figured the actual reason was probably pretty benign.
Yeah, I never thought it was anything deeper than that they're working Canadian actors who probably had other projects. I looked both of them up because someone in another group I frequent was chirping about it, and Emily Coutts recently wrote and directed her own short film, and Oyin Oladejo got to play the lead in an indie thriller.
These two had the misfortune of being in the grey zone between background and supporting characters. It's fine for a show not to focus on the bridge crew (who's at the helm on the Cerritos?) but Detmer and Owosekun got a raw deal because sometimes it seemed like they were gonna have some character development. Like in season 3 that Detmer had this bizarre beef with Stamets out of nowhere, and that was probably the only episode where she got more than a couple of lines.
I'm not surprised that the actresses chose their other projects (they were probably at the bottom of the totem poll of the show in terms of pay).
I probably wouldn't have noticed they were missing, but in episode 3 Michael introduced Rayner to the crew and said "You'll meet Owosekun, Detmer and the rest of the crew in a little bit", and then later Tilly said "I'll send Commander Owosekun in", off screen of course. Lame.
...i mean, let's be fair: voyager set the bar so low the franchise nearly fizzled-out in its wake, and arguably never recovered despite enterprise's strengths...
As someone who watched it with no nostalgia glasses: it is not good trek.
I can't think of a really outstanding episode off the top of my head (maybe the Tuvix one? But even that is just ... rough?). And there are some episodes in there that I actively dislike in a way I don't with most of the other series.
I like Kate Mulgrew, she was a strong actor for the role and the theme is a banger, otherwise .. meh.
I also think it's fairly weak overall but there are some really great outstanding episodes. Blink of an Eye, Counterpoint, Scorpion, for some examples. And I also agree that the worst Voyagers are really very bad, but are they that much worse than other series' follies? Is Threshold worse than Code of Honor? Sacred Ground worse than Turnabout Intruder? Fair Haven worse than Profit and Lace?
Originally sole canadian actress was hired to play Janeway...forgot her name, but you can see some original footage on YouTube, she was so bad as captain Janeway. Mulgrew took the character to a whole other level.
Personally enjoyed Voyager, skipping some episodes however, mostly those personal quests... And Neelix didn't bring much as well.
Enterprise was...meh. Learned to like it and by the third season it felt like they finally found the right direction. Loved the doctor in that series. And the theme song, my god who decided that. Awful.
Strange new worlds is great, feels like it has everything I expect from a star trek series. Atmosphere, decors, characters, theme song...
I'm retroactively annoyed at the stranded but in good repair situation. But voyager failing made Battlestar a thing so....
I also think it's just a weird transition period for tv. Still had crap budgets and weird unpolished plotlines due to the need for season-long fillers. If you cut each season down to 8-10 episodes as we sometimes do today, could be a fine show.
Star Trek really has 2 different genres, there's action/adventure and there's real hard sci-fi where philosophy is at the forefront. Voyager generally appeals more to the action/adventure fans, whereas the previous iterations appeared like the entire series was heading in a more philosophical direction with TOS to TNG to DS9 increasing in their thoughtfulness. VOY was seen as a huge backslide to people who were tuning in largely for the philosophical aspect of the show.
Considering there was and still are very few popular philosophical and thought provoking shows that challenge the viewer's world view and biases, I think it's fair to be upset that the new direction of the show is to dumb down everything and focus more on the action.
Of course, that's not to say that Voyager was completely devoid of any philosophical debate, but I don't think anyone can make the case that it's equally as intelligent as TNG and DS9.
I think that's part of why bringing in Seven of Nine helped the series a lot. Exploring how she adapted to being a human, when she'd been a Borg since she was a child, was much more philosophical and led to a lot of really great episodes.
Voyager was probably the most high concept of the era's Trek and didn't really fulfill that promise. It is funny that DS9 kept better track of its roundabouts over Voyager's shuttles.
They really didn't nail down the writing of the crew. The Doctor and Seven are the best written. However, out of the rest of the crew, only Tom Paris seems somewhat consistent.
You get some good episodes out of it, but I don't think it plays with the parts of Trek they were given to its fullest extent. I also feel like, while some of the shows are pure Trek, they aren't Voyager.
A big part of Voyager's problem was that the writers had absolutely no clue what to do with Kes. You had one of the main characters being just kind of there and largely useless. Once they brought Seven of Nine in and dropped Kes Voyager got a lot better. The writers had a clear understanding of how to write for Seven and she had a ton of character development over the final four seasons. Hell, I'd even say they did a better job with Neelix once they got rid of Kes, since they couldn't keep falling back on "Neelix is super jealous of Kes interacting with any male on the crew" BS they did a lot of. (And dear god was that annoying as hell. And I like Voyager!)
I feel like it wasn't just Kes who had this problem.
The Doctor and Seven were probably the best written characters. Tom and B'Lenna were probably the next two after that. Janeway only got better because she could act as a bad parent to Seven, which vastly improved her character and gave her focus. Neelix and Tuvok kind of drifted off to the background. Kim and Chakotay were blander than that, although Kim got a few decent character beats.
I'm not going to fault the actors on this, since this was the writing.
And Robert Beltran kept upping his salary demands each season hoping they'd fire him, since they were giving him so little acting to do. But they saying yes, so he stayed.
I'm a voyager fanboy since it aired, but it really doesn't hold up well.
Nevermind the fact that it is low quality visually and will never be remastered, but the practically non existint continuity really really really hurts it.
I still recommend people watch it, but it would be 3rd of the 'old' shows I'd suggest. (DS9 1st always because it is fucking awesome, then TNG because it brought Star Trek to the masses and solidified a lot of 'canon')
I really enjoyed Voyager. Saw it for the first time in 2020-2023, so maybe that played a part. Of course Tuvok, Seven, EMH, and Janeway were great, but I even liked Neelix as a character.
I agree. Discovery is the least progressive Star Trek series and is already aging poorly. The other series use the Star Trek universe to cleverly explore present day issues whereas Discovery lazily frames today's social issues as if they're universal truths. It was a real back step for the franchise.
It's not that Disco isn't progressive; it's just lazily progressive. Case in point: the scene that bothers me to this day is Adira coming out as non-binary, just beyond cringe-worthy and very 21st century. As a viewer, the scene read like Adira was waiting to be judged harshly for their identity, and it just totally took me out of the era. By the 32nd century, I'd expect that being judged harshly for one's gender identity would be at least a millennium behind us, and the conversation should either have not happened or been so matter-of-fact that it was treated as nothing. I get what the writers were trying to do, and it fell so flat and felt so bluntly obvious. I'm all for the message, but the delivery was not great.
The saddest thing about Disco to me is that there were great ideas and great intentions, but the execution of those ideas was so poor. Really, it just shows that you can have great actors, great directors, and great concepts, but if the writers can't make it work, it just all comes apart.
I see your point, but I still don't think the scene works, but thinking about it like that makes it much more watchable. My point is that the scene is simultaneously poignant and a throw-away. It's a "big deal" but also just one scene.
By the 32nd century, something like that should be such a non-issue for humans, that it would be like stating just another fact about yourself (amnesia and trust-issues aside), which lends itself to being a throw-away...but that defeats the purpose of the scene. Again, I am all about the message and Stamets' reaction, but it felt very 21st century and on-the-nose.
I'd have preferred if Adira were just non-binary from the beginning and maybe have a quick correction of someone when they were misgendered. Or, let that scene be the reveal of something else, like the symbiont. With that change (I'd have to rewatch the season to see where this scene was in relation to the symbiont reveal), I think the scene would still work while tightening up the writing. I also think it'd get the message across, too.
Now, if the writers really wanted that scene to stay as-is, there are options. Make them an alien from a culture not as enlightened (which would cause other issues) or have this scene play into a bigger theme of Earth backsliding post-Burn (like a Dark Ages) to have mores closer to the 21st century and show the 23rd century crew as horrified by it and work to bring Earth and humanity back toward enlightenment.
This kinda sums up my main problem with Disco. There were great options on the table to realize a concept, but they just wrote it in an awkward way that is unsatisfying (at least to me). Sometimes, that awkwardness reads as performative/lazily progressive.
The problem I had with that scene (and the whole series, really, especially season 3) was that it framed human culture of the future as being generally oppressive and backwards. Acceptance shouldn't be portrayed as radical or exceptional. It should be normal and taken for granted among humans in the future. Like in TOS, Uhura's role was a big deal for viewers specifically because it was not a big deal for the characters. They just showed us a better future, where a black woman in a respected professional position was normal.
Discovery didn't show us a better future. It showed us a shitty future with a handful of decent people in it. This is just one example, but it's one that stuck in my mind as well.
It was presented as exceptional in-universe, from Adira's perspective. The fact that Adira felt weird about it at all paints the culture they grew up in as backwards.
How so? Perhaps I'm misremembering, but they were born on Earth and raised among humans, right? Does that not say something about the human culture of their time?
I've only made it to season 2, so I'm holding out hope that it gets better, but lazily progressive seems to describe it pretty well.
The one that really rubs me rough it how Tilly is very clearly coded to be some type of neuro divergent, probably autistic, but also only when it is convenient and quirky and will not interfere with the plot too much.
Her suddenly being very socially adept when the plot needed her to pretend to be an evil commander or whatever, and she dropped all of her character flaws to make it happen just felt so out of character and lazy.
Also the scenes with Spock and "child abuse bad" at the start of the red angel arc was very ham fisted.
I much preferred how SNW handled the "our wonderful society is supported by horrible child labor and death" arc. Still about as subtle as a brick, but it at least felt like an attempt was made to encode a message, and not just saying it at the viewer like a pre-school cartoon recapping the message of the episode.
The scene you're describing is a good example. Though I would argue that given this story line is set a millennium in the future, it isn't just lazily progressive, it's an ultra-conservative view of the future. It perpetuates today's bigotries as universal truths instead of challenging the audience to perceive of a future without our current bigotries like the Kirk / Uhura kiss did 50 years ago.
Yeah someone being non-binary or whatever and no one caring or commenting on it at all is a lot more progressive and meaningful. TOS did that really well with Uhura on the bridge. She was a black woman and absolutely no one on the ship acted like that was remotely odd. It sent a very powerful message.
It also felt like it was shoehorning in all the progressiveness for the sake of being progressive which sends the exact opposite message than they hoped for. The crew was so amazingly diverse representing so many different things that any adult would look at it and go "the odds of all these different sexualities/etc. being on one ship at once are so improbable as to be impossible." That makes it feel like pandering, not being progressive. That could work for kids, just being able to see someone like them on screen helps a lot, but Discovery is very much not meant for kids to watch.
Basically they tried too hard and didn't understand what they were doing.
Can you give some examples of this? Admittedly I didn't much care for Discovery and didn't pay a lot of attention through it as a result, but I'm not picking up what you're laying down ;-)
The original series was based in a post-race society. When Kirk and Uhura kiss, it wasn't an interracial kiss in the show because the concept of race doesn't exist in the 24th century universe. It got backlash when it aired because some people couldn't contemplate a the future without their current bigotry existing. Star Trek explored current social issues by visiting some planet with a veiled version of that issue.
Contrast that to Discovery where Burnham is having a conversation with an Admiral and the Admiral brings up Burnham's family's history of slavery.
Ah yeah, I remember a moment like that in DS9, where Sisko is lamenting the crew's interest in a holosuite program set in the 50s because of how "our people" were treated back then. It always felt out of place for me, though DS9 is still my favourite Star Trek.
I very much enjoyed enterprise at the time, despite the horrible theme song and the flaws in writing that spotted most episodes.
Now, part of that is being a huge Bakula fan. I love the way he throws himself into roles. I think though, had there been another age actor in the role I still would have enjoyed the show.
It wasn't great Trek. Probably the weakest of the older series, depending on tastes and criteria. Certainly wasn't up to TNG, TOS, or DS 9. I'd put it on par with Voyager, though it was both bad and good in different ways, with the lack of attention being paid to established Vulcan history in Enterprise tipping the scales to it being lesser than Voyager.
But I really liked that they tried to go back to the whole "wagon train in space" vibe. And the cast was great. Can't hold the iffy writing against the cast, and there were some great moments where the actors kept things from being worse just by virtue of how they carried their characters.
I don't rewatch any of the series as a binge though, so my opinion might change when the flaws are showing up in rapid succession compared to the original pace of watching week by week and over time. I know binge watching made me almost hate shows I used to like a good bit (like Bones as an example).
I can't compare anything to the newer shows since I've kinda stopped watching much in the way of "tv" the last few years, so I haven't caught any of the stuff that has been done in the last decade. Could be that one of the new shows would be worse, in comparison to the earlier shows, I dunno. Doesn't help that I despise the reboot movies, and the fact e that they happened kinda soured me on new Trek overall. The folks running things don't seem to be interested in the kind of shows that made me enjoy Trek in the first place, but that's second hand impression from seeing what people say online
All of them hold up pretty well when binging them, although I do fairly slow binges, maybe watching 3 - 4 episodes a day at most. There are episodes I dislike and I simply skip those when binging, which helps a lot. (For example DS9 is my favorite Trek but I really, really hate Vedik/Kai Wynn and skip the earlier episodes where she's being an annoying bitch. I do watch the later episodes where she's a lot more important, but I still hate her character so much. For TNG I skip all of season 1 and most of season 2.)
Enterprise, when it wasn't actively sexually harrassing T'pol, was great.
The problem is, the episodes where B&B are using Jolene Blalock as a sounding board for their fetishes are so bad, that it drags down the series as a whole.
I never understood that need. T’pol was already fiercely exotic, what with her flawless face and remote Vulcan disdain. They could have put her into a spacesuit for the entire series and she would have still been attractive AF purely due to her personality and strength of character. About the only improvement I would have liked to see is more of her character arc being in conflict with her Vulcan upbringing, particularly in trying to deal with those infuriatingly irrational humans, and her emotional entanglement with Trip.
I'm not a huge trek nerd, but recently watched the whole series, and the two main irritations were the blatant/unnecessary/annoying/offensive sexualization, and the theme song.
It's easy to skip the opening sequence but the gratuitous fetishizing was pretty awful. The whole series would have been better without.
The scenes in the isolation chamber in underwear applying gel to each other were totally unnecessary and unpleasant to watch, especially nowadays. They have aged very poorly.
The scenes in the isolation chamber in underwear applying gel to each other were totally unnecessary
I thought so at the time but later realized that was a key scene of the whole entire show. You missed a lot of the nuance. That was where T'pol developed her crush on Trip. Her crush on Trip was the only reason she became the first Vulcan to be able to stay aboard a human ship for longer than a few weeks. And T'pol's presence on the ship advising Archer was what made Archer so successful in laying the groundwork of the entire federation.
My grandpa was a reactor monkey on the CVN Enterprise and the primary reason I’m such a huge sci-fi nerd, every time I see Big E in the intro it makes me think of him and hopeful we’ll see NCC-1701 someday.
Back when Enterprise was airing some fan took the opening video and put it to an instrumental instead of the song and it was awesome as hell. Really wish I'd saved a copy of that now.
It was more like this one where they use an instrumental version of the opening theme, but as I recall the music was more along the lines of Voyager's opening theme.
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