I feel like less of a man because of how emotionally sensitive I am.

dumples , 1 year ago

This is a great example of the negative effects on men from our current patriarchal system. Men are suppose to be these unfeeling machines who only have a single emotion anger. This anger is valuable since people can wield it for their own personal gain either politically or economically so they keep up these narratives. But all humans are complex with many different emotions and likely you are feeling some other emotions as anger since you don't have good words to describe them. I have this same problem with labeling emotions so I have been trying to label emotions twice a day now. Set an alarm and look at feelings wheel to describe what you are feeling. It may seem dumb but its a skill that needs practice and if you are like me you never learned this as a kid.

Also try to consume some counterculture media to see other descriptions of masculinity or manhood. This could be feminist, queer, kink positive, high fantasy, scify, ttrpg etc. since they will allow show alternative values and cultural expectations. These will show that there are different ways to be a man and that our current system is just one possible example. Once you start seeing this you will notice many different positive male role models even in some more typical media. Queer Eye did a great episode at a fraternity who were feeling the same things as you.

This may seem like a lot of work but the payoffs within your own life will be worth it. Removing other peoples expectations of what you should be and living based on your own expectations is freeing. Any future partners will be appreciate, as well as your friends even if they don't know it yet. You will be happier since you can focus on what makes you happy not what others want think will make you happy.

a-man-from-earth , 1 year ago

We don't live in a patriarchal system.

norbert , 1 year ago

To deny that a patriarchal system exists is naive. A one sentence response to a 3 paragraph comment is woefully weak and inadequate and does nothing but make it seem like you're sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "No! No! I'm not listening!"

a-man-from-earth , 1 year ago

I don't have a problem with the rest of the comment, but the feminist terminology is grating.

'Patriarchy' is commonly defined as "a system of society or government in which men hold the power and women are largely excluded from it" (as per r/AskFeminists.) This is simply not the kind of society we live in. In Western countries at least (and most others as well) women are represented at all levels of government, and there are no systemic barriers to participation.

norbert , 1 year ago

Ah ok we're just getting hung up on semantics, not a huge deal. There are lots of theories and definitions, I didn't subscribe to /r/Feminism on the other site and I don't intend to here so I'm not sure what definition they endorsed. I'm referring to the existing systems that try to define masculinity as emotionless and stoic, sees their role as bread-winner and disciplinarian, obsessed with sex to the exclusion of everything else. The systems that say "boys don't cry" and "man up" when things are hard, those are systems exist in the west and are absolutely part of "patriarchy" or whatever phrase we agree to use.

a-man-from-earth , 1 year ago

It's not just semantics. Terms such as "patriarchy", "toxic masculinity", and "male privilege" habitually come with a load of negative messaging about what it means to be a man. That is toxic and we should avoid that.

I prefer terms such as "harmful gender expectations" as it puts the locus of the problem in society rather than the nature of men. Young men growing up deserve better than to be demonized for their gender and to be driven into the arms of toxic figures like Tate.

Mshuser , 11 months ago

The patriarchy has never even existed in western society. The gendered problems you're talking about were caused by the monarchy.

Dienervent , 1 year ago

I just don't have time to do a proper response right now. I think pretty much everything you've said is incredibly helpful and I can only speak for myself here, but I hope you stick around.

Except one thing. Blaming it all on the patriarchy. I'm pretty sure that it's not your intent, but I think this is not a good thing to do, especially when speaking to a vulnerable man. I'm sure you have your definition of what the patriarchy is and that it clarifies why what you said is perfectly reasonable, but from the perspective of a vulnerable man hearing "patriarchy" this and "toxic masculinity" that (which to your credit, you didn't say the latter), rationally or not leads many to start seeing masculinity itself as problematic. Which for vulnerable men, especially those with anxiety issues leads to self loathing and a lot worse problems down the road.

Frankly, I think, when trying to help vulnerable men, you should make sure to keep feminist ideology out of it. Otherwise you risk making things worse, not in a big hit, but in a death of a thousand cuts kind of way.

Does that make sense?

Bluskale , 1 year ago

If you live in an oligarchy, does that make you an oligarch? Are you responsible for what the oligarchs do? If not, then why does the same not apply to patriarchy?

Contrary to your perspective here, I think it is useful to examine the social context, including how gender is systemically wielded to reinforce power structures that were designed to support the lifestyles of a select few. Living in a patriarchal society doesn't mean you inherently benefit simply by being a man. It's more about putting you into a box so you behave as expected and perform the roles pushed onto you. Having narrow definitions of masculinity or femininity and strictly defined gender roles (no crossing over!) are a big part of building and maintaining those boxes for everyone.

This post above particularly emphasized the value of breaking out of those expectations:

Removing other peoples expectations of what you should be and living based on your own expectations is freeing. [...] You will be happier since you can focus on what makes you happy not what others want think will make you happy.

dumples , 1 year ago

Contrary to your perspective here, I think it is useful to examine the social context, including how gender is systemically wielded to reinforce power structures that were designed to support the lifestyles of a select few. Living in a patriarchal society doesn't mean you inherently benefit simply by being a man. It's more about putting you into a box so you behave as expected and perform the roles pushed onto you. Having narrow definitions of masculinity or femininity and strictly defined gender roles (no crossing over!) are a big part of building and maintaining those boxes for everyone.

This is a great definition. It shows how these hierarchical systems are set up to support just a few. Everyone else gets just enough to survive but only by sacrificing a portion of their selves. They are suppose to feel lucky since they are not at the bottom.

RandoCalrandian , 11 months ago

except we don't live in a patriarchal society

men do not benefit just from being men, they have to claw and compete and struggle to get to those positions of power, and usually once they they stop other men from getting in

It's the implication that this is a male issue, and that females would and do behave at all in any way better when in those same positions that we take issue with.

They don't, they wouldn't have, it's insanely sexist to believe otherwise, and insisting on using terms like "patriarchy" when we definitely don't live in one in western society and haven't for at least a century is incredibly problematic, especially when speaking to a victim of geocentrism and using it to dismiss his valid feelings.

a-man-from-earth , 1 year ago

power structures that were designed to support the lifestyles of a select few

Exactly. It's not men in general that have been in power, but a select few men and women. It is then incorrect to use the terms patriarchy and patriarchal systems (as commonly understood) to describe our society. Because there are plenty of men at the bottom too, even more so.

RandoCalrandian , 11 months ago

that "and women" part does not get said often enough

Most of these institutions were created by monarchies to keep the monarchies in power. The last monarch of any real note was a woman, and had decades of ruling time under her belt. This, however, still gets blamed on "patriarchy" and men as a whole, as if the men being subjugated were responsible for their own subjugation.

It's an extension of the hyperagency society forces on to men, and incredibly sexist to keep using the term "patriarchy" or especially to throw it in a victim's face, it's essentially victim blaming at that point. "Oh it was men who caused the problems so any problems you, as an individual man, face are your own fault!"

Dienervent , 1 year ago

Contrary to your perspective here, I think it is useful to examine the social context, including how gender is systemically wielded to reinforce power structures that were designed to support the lifestyles of a select few. Living in a patriarchal society doesn't mean you inherently benefit simply by being a man. It's more about putting you into a box so you behave as expected and perform the roles pushed onto you. Having narrow definitions of masculinity or femininity and strictly defined gender roles (no crossing over!) are a big part of building and maintaining those boxes for everyone.

This is not contrary to my perspective. I completely agree with this. I disagree with naming the cause of this problem "patriarchy". I consider this to be engaging in victim blaming.

RandoCalrandian , 11 months ago

Agreed.

It's feminist terminology meant to blame men for any and every problem, including problems men bring up. Even if they weasel out of it technically not meaning "all men are at fault and to blame", that is very much how it is used in practice, and certainly how this commenter used it to invalidate the emotions of OP

dumples , 1 year ago

This may seems like a strange source by I really enjoyed the Copenhagen Pride definition of feminism

FEMINISM
Feminism refers both to a political movement that originated in the battle for equal voting rights for women, and a political ideology that strives to attain equality between all genders. Although feminism arose from the women’s rights movement and have come a long way under its banners, there has recently been a move towards more focus on the struggles of other minorities in society. This is referred to as intersectional feminism: the intersections that occur between identities which affect the way a person experiences society, for instance as a black bisexual woman, a non-binary person with a disability, a transgender gay man, and so forth.

Feminism rejects the traditional patriarchal values that oppresses the individual regardless of gender. An aspect of this is the notion that women are worth less than men, or that being straight is preferable to an LGBTQIA+ identity. The struggle of women in society is still an issue deserving of undivided attention, but it does not need to be at the cost of addressing overlapping identities that face problems on a similar basis.

An example: A boy gets teased in school for wearing a dress. Here, feminism tells us to disregard the idea that there is a correct way of “doing” your gender, and instead encourage us to express ourselves freely. It may sound simple, but we live in a society that is deeply influenced by traditional understandings of gender, and it requires and active awareness that not everyone fits into the classic binary understanding of gender. And that’s totally okay!

HOW DO WE WORK WITH FEMINISM?

The feminist work practice of Copenhagen Pride is tied up with the recognition of privilege blindness. Privilege blind refers to the tendency to be unable to see the challenges faced by others because of your position in society. It is not in and of itself a negative thing, but it can be harmful because it can lead to the exclusion of certain persons or groups. By recognizing this blindness, we can get insight into our distinct challenges and thus become better at helping one another out. An example of privilege blindness is the fact that the global Pride movement has often been criticized of only catering to (primarily white) gay cisgender men and forgetting about the other identities in the acronym. This comes to show if a Pride chooses to only have pictures of this group in their promotional material, thus contributing to a feeling of exclusion by others, who may not feel as welcomed. We can work against this by actively incorporating women, transgender people and QTBIPOC[1] into our strategies and representation and making an effort to amplify the voices that have a hard time being heard. This is ideally done by working towards having decision making persons and groups representing a broad section of our community. A way to use your privilege for good is to pass on the mic, instead of believing that you can speak on the behalf of others. That’s our responsibility as feminists!

Dienervent , 1 year ago

This IS progress. Much better than the previous but simpler definition that went like "Feminism is a movement that fights for gender equality for women". Which is a bit of a oxymoron if you ask me.

The next step is to recognize that cultural norms that harms people on the basis of gendered expectations isn't uniquely or even primarily caused by an elite few, but is a systemic wide cultural problem for which both men and women are responsible. Using "patriarchy" as the term to refer to this problem is a best misleading, causes unnecessary division and leads to a certain myopia when looking at how to address the problem.

The step after that is that it is obviously absurd to name a gender equality movement after only one of the genders. Again this alienates certain groups of people and prevents them from contributing to the conversation on an equal footing.

But in practice, that's not what's going to happen. There's not going to be a flipped switch and everyone agrees to stop using the word patriarchy to refer to the ills of society or to rename feminism to something else. Instead, little by little, the more sensible people recognize these issues and individually choose to no longer use the patriarchy and feminist terminologies. Until the only the only people left still willing to call themselves feminists will be the most radical of misandrists.

dumples , 1 year ago

What other words are there to switch to? It is hard to argue that we should use different terms if those don't exist yet.

Dienervent , 1 year ago

This might give you a case of déjà-vue, but "harmful gender expectations" is a pretty good alternative. It doesn't cover all the reasons why someone might want to use the term patriarchy, but it covers a large portion of them, in particular it does cover the use of it in this thread that set off all this discussion.

And I think using clearer more precise terms depending on circumstances would be greatly beneficial. The terms patriarchy seems easily misunderstood and misused and I've seen many people go so far as to believe that the term is intentionally misused or intentionally misunderstood.

On a somewhat related topic, what do you think of male privilege. Are men a privileged class?

There was a guy in this thread that talked about how acknowledging his male privilege literally saved his life (I'm exaggerating). But he also had the misfortune of using the word "Toxic" followed by the word "Masculinity" without any irony and therefore suffered the wrath of our merciless mod.

I spent 30 minutes preparing a reply before I realized there was nothing left to reply to, I ended up sending it to him in a dm. But you seem to have a bit more advanced understanding of these topics so I'm curious what you think of this one.

RandoCalrandian , 11 months ago

Patriarchy just means "society", but sneaks in blaming men for any problems caused by it

Egalitarian is a word that means equality between all peoples, and that existed before feminism as a word, to give you an idea of how far back their sexist bias goes

"Toxic Masculinity" really is a victim blaming way to say "gender expectations placed on men by society, which are harmful to others but maybe sometimes we'll admit are harmful to the man subject to the abuse, but who gives a fuck about that guy he hasn't solved his own problems and instead made them known to others, how can we make him shut up?"

And for that last one we actually prefer the terminology feminism used before they realized it applied to men as well: "sexist gender roles and expectations"

Mshuser , 11 months ago

This definition of feminism is what they want you to think. If you actually read the ideologies behind OG feminists, what feminism means is far from just equality between men and women. It's just a misandrist movement that really stands for female superiority. The concepts they came up with such as patriarchy theory and male privilege really comes from blaming societies gender problems on men. Read Elizabeth Stato, Kate Millett, Andrea Dworkin, and idk this subs opinion on Janice Fiamengo but if you don't wanna do the grueling research, she can break it down for you. This will tell you everything you need to know about real feminism, not the brainwashed crap that hides behind a progressive mask that's out there.

a-man-from-earth , 11 months ago

Good comment!

idk this subs opinion on Janice Fiamengo

There will be a range of opinions, I guess. Mine is that I like her and many of the points she makes, but she leans a bit too much into traditionalism.

Wrewlf , 11 months ago

Masculinity as with all labels, is what we make it to be. Who says it isn’t manly to have strong feelings or to be emotive.

If what you are seeking is emotional maturity, that isn’t especially a gendered concept. It’s something you can work on and build, but I’d recommend trying to mentally uncouple it from being a man. It sounds like a way your mind is beating yourself up for your perceived shortcomings.

Keep working on ways to acknowledge, accept, and let things be. Remind yourself of your goals and your strengths. At times when things get a bit out of control, show yourself compassion and remind yourself you are still working on it.

Cinner , 1 year ago

Get your bloods tested. I was very sensitive to everything and finally a doctor thought to test my levels of everything related to anxiety/depression/mood. Found out I had extremely low testosterone (less than half the bottom average number) and higher estrogen than I should have. After starting TRT I'm like a new person. I can actually handle things now.

Hyacathusarullistad , 1 year ago

Emotional reactions to stimuli are healthy and natural. The key is developing an emotional awareness that allows to understand your emotional reactions. That's the only healthy way to control them, the alternative being the kind of suppression/repression that's been so toxic for men for the last century or more.

dumples , 1 year ago

I recommend a feelings wheel if you are like me and having a hard time identifying and labeling feelings.

a-man-from-earth , 1 year ago

Not in the sense that they don’t feel anything, but that they are a lot better at handling them

I think this is an important distinction. You don't want to become unfeeling, but you do want to become more in control of your feelings. That's a sign of maturity (tho many adults don't really manage to get there).

I’ve tried meditation, therapy, healthy eating and a better sleep schedule but nothing works.

This takes time. Stick with it for a few years and you will see improvement. It's not easy to grow and change, so give yourself time, and don't give up.

Life isn't easy for most of us. Just keep at it. Build healthy habits and over time you will see improvement.

I also recommend reading Stoic philosophy. Not the pop-culture unfeeling stuff. But the stuff about knowing the difference between what's in your control and what's outside of your control.

Kichae , 1 year ago

I think this is an important distinction. You don't want to become unfeeling, but you do want to become more in control of your feelings.

Ehhhhhhhhh.... You want to be in control of your actions. Trying to control your feelings just tends to lead to thinks like repression.

dumples , 1 year ago

My dad always told me that we cannot control our feelings but can control what we do with it. Its amazing advice

a-man-from-earth , 1 year ago

You also want to regulate your feelings. It's not helpful to e.g. let your anxiety drive you into a frenzy, or your depression drive you to harm yourself. Emotional regulation (not suppression) is an important skill.

Kichae , 1 year ago

True, and fair. A big part of regulation, though, is actually feeling and acknowledging those emotions, and giving them permission and space to exist.

Observation vs containment.

RandoCalrandian , 11 months ago

if your anxiety is running crazy it's doing so for a reason

Often that reason is you keep dismissing the part of yourself whose entire purpose is to protect you from danger

What do you expect it to do but get worse? You're ignoring the alarm bell, all it can do is ring louder and harder.

"regulating" that signal is the exact wrong response, even in extreme cases. You need your fear and anxiety to regulate itself to be properly tuned to the danger you need to be aware of, which means more communication with your self, not less.

Emotional regulation (not suppression) is an important skill.

Wholeheartedly disagree. This is an unhealthy attitude to take.

Regulating your own actions is an important skill, and seeing and understanding how those actions relate to those emotions, that as well.

But your emotions are part of you, they are a part that deserves to be listened to and respected, and nothing in your response indicates you put in effort to do that.

Which makes sense. We, as men, are not at any point given the time or space to do so, and are often just physically beaten if our emotions are ever a problem for other people. It makes sense that repression and controlling them becomes the go-to for most

Doesn't make it right (or healthy)

jarric , 11 months ago

Yeah, exactly. Feelings inside will just build up. Been there, I'll never come back.

speck , 1 year ago

Adding on,.what we're talking about here is emotional regulation. This isn't the same as controlling emotions, nor doing away with them. More like managing the volume so you can actually listen to them.

You could even take out the word emotion and simply talk about self-regulation. @PostalDude if that's the case, it's not just whether you've tried meditation or therapy. On top of sticking to them because it can take time, the type of therapy matters. DBT is a specific modality which offers a lot of tools for self-regulation. This doesn't mean dispensing with other approaches; but it's a good place to start. Person-centered therapies might be subsequently useful and perhaps EMDR if you suspect a trauma element (just some examples. Not prescriptive).

From there understanding the effects of culture is good and so is looking at (real) Stoicism. But the latter is almost a later stage step, in that you want to be in the right frame of mind to properly apprehend it.

Pencilnoob , 1 year ago

You’re fine, there’s a lot of toxic ideas out there that men should be cold and unfeeling. But that is absolutely silly. Emotional sensitively is an incredible gift. Check out the resources around highly sensitive people, that might help you like it helped me.

hsperson.comhighlysensitiverefuge.com/highly-sensitive-person…

BaroqueInMind , 1 year ago

You're good bro. Having emotional depth means you are capable of a larger spectrum of experiences that other men can't relate. Embrace it, because you can feel a level of joy looking at a sunset or exhilaration driving a sports car on a track or extasy eating a perfect steak, at higher orders of magnitude more than other men.

Imagine the difference between us and you is that you are straight up raw dogging everything, while everyone else feels muted as if covered by a condom.

PostalDude OP , 1 year ago

Epic response bro! Thanks. Its fun to think of it like that, like I’m living a more raw unfiltered life than most, I guess.

sailsperson , 1 year ago

Dude, you know, killing an entire town because you couldn't wait in a line to get your milk like everybody else is not entirely a healthy thing, nor any of your "health" pipes are.

Jokes aside, your original post gives me a feeling that the very idea of not suppressing your emotions all of the time for the sake of masculinity is not yours, really. You mentioned your friends and family, who do seem to exert the macho behavior in unhealthy ways.

Get in terms with yourself first and foremost, because you're the person you spend most of your time with one way or another. Allow yourself to feel anything and carefully analyze when and why you feel, then try to understand whether you want to have that kind of reaction to things at all. Personally, I have always found honest writing helpful, because it makes you go through things in details, which makes it invaluable when dealing with emotions and reactions.

Also, being constantly talked down to or annoyed or belittled or simply experiencing any kind of stress is a very prominent contributing factor to feeling like you're not right. In some cases, it may help to find another group of people to regularly communicate with, finding comfort in some different pattern of behavior, one that makes you feel good and like you belong. It doesn't necessarily mean that you have to ditch other groups - just make sure you experience the opposite of what depresses you on a regular basis. I can't find any examples, but the Internet is surely full of understanding and caring people that you can probably try and bond with to have a good time together, with your thoughts being really far away from anything that makes you feel like you're "not masculine enough".

Lastly, try your best to calmly persevere when it makes sense to. Suggesting a person to do some sports for the sake of their own benefit is one thing, which you absolutely can politely decline if you don't care because you're the one living with the consequences, but making a person feel uncomfortable because of the emotional range they experience is plainly moronic (again, unless the person really needs some help, but shaming is no help).

Life isn't static. Who knows, maybe you'll manage persuade everyone around you to be more mature and welcoming and understanding, or even notice yourself changing and becoming in more direct control of your emotions, ending up chuckling looking back at your today's self - I know I did.

So, cheer up, Dude. You seem like you got this, and believe in you.