About the bear...

So, I'm just assuming we've all seen the discussions about the bear.
Personally I feel that this is an opportunity for everyone to stop and think a little about it.
The knee-jerk reaction from many men seems to be something along the lines of "You would choose a dangerous animal over me? That makes me feel bad about myself." which results in endless comments of the "Akchully... according to Bayes theorem you are much more likely to..." kind.
It should be clear by now that it doesn't lead to good places.
Maybe, and I'm open to being wrong, but maybe the real message is women saying: "We are scared of unknown men."
Then, if that is the message intended, what do we do next? Maybe the best thing is just to listen. To ask questions. What have you experienced to make you feel that way?
I firmly believe that the empathy we give lays a foundation for other people being willing to have empathy for the things we try to communicate.
It doesn't mean we should feel bad about ourselves, but just to recognize that someone is trying to say something, and it's not a technical discussion about bears.
What do you think?

BeefPiano ,

I think a lot of men believe “I’m one of the good ones” and don’t stop to think that a random woman on the street (or in the woods, in this case) has no way of determining that.

Alteon ,

It's worth to know that nobody is ever infallible. I've always thought that same thing, "I'm a good guy.". But I've learned that it's better to think, "i may think I'm a good guy, but I need to be careful about how I come off," because I have said some fucked up things without realizing it.

Like, I have genuinely made some people uncomfortable without me realizing it, and I've been trying hard to be more aware of not only the situation I'm putting someone in, but the vibes I'm giving off.

BeefPiano ,

You get it

Jimmyeatsausage ,

I had a pretty pivotal experience around this realization when I was in my late teens. A buddy of mine and I were driving around town running errands, and we ended up driving past this same woman a couple of times like miles apart. At one point, I rolled down my window and asked if she needed a ride. The look on her face broke part of me. She was terrified of me. I'd never been looked at like that before.

I was so nieve at that point in my life. It never even occurred to me how horrifying 2 guys you don't know rolling up and trying to get you in their car might be. Neither of had any bad intentions...it was hot as hell out, and we figured she'd been walking for miles at that point. But none of that matters...we were like clumsy giants destroying a village we wanted to visit because we never considered the fact that we were just too big.

I still feel bad when I think about it and that was 20 years ago.

IntangibleSloth , (edited )
@IntangibleSloth@lemm.ee avatar

I went on a date with a woman many years ago and we had dinner. It's was clear we weren't vibing but we had a polite dinner and chatted and on the way out insisted I could drive her home instead of her taking an Uber like she did to get there. I offered a couple times and she agreed. I dropped her off and watched from the car to make sure she made it inside. I had good intentions and didn't intended to do anything more than drop her off. But man looking back, I wish I would have just waited with her for the Uber to show up. I bet that was uncomfortable for her.

Notyou ,
@Notyou@sopuli.xyz avatar

I think you might be right in that idea. One time I was out with my wife at a club show. She got a little too drunk and stumbling. I was walking her out of the club to pick up the metro and go home, when some chick stopped us (her) and whispered something in my wife's ear.

My wife responded "No, it's good. He's my husband."
When I asked my wife what was that about and she told me that she was "checking to make sure I knew you." My first response was "oh yeah that makes sense. Men suck." I was low-key glad they checked on my wife though. They had no way of knowing if "I'm one of the good ones."

ModsAreCopsACAB ,
@ModsAreCopsACAB@lemm.ee avatar

Did they apologize to you afterwards? If not then that's what's fucked up about this whole situation in society. You can't treat a person that you just suspected was a harasser like wind after you do it, and excuse it with "men are shitty, so I'm forgiven for my own shitty behaviour towards the good ones".

Notyou ,
@Notyou@sopuli.xyz avatar

Well, no they didn't apologize. I didn't expect them because of the situation. I was literally walking quickly through a crowd of people. They only had a very small window to talk before I was already moving away with my wife in hand. By the time I noticed and stopped and asked my wife, the good samaritan was far enough away in a crowded bar that she wouldn't be able to say anything.

Maybe I don't take offense because she didn't treat me like a suspected harasser. She didn't treat me like anything. She looked out for my wife. I greatly appreciate that she was looking out for customers that drank too much. That was the end of my thoughts.

Why should I be offended that the club was trying to make sure their customers were safe? I guess I would be offended if they stopped me and separated us and asked 20 questions, but that isn't the case. The interaction took maybe 5 seconds and I didn't noticed until I was pulling on her arm and had some resistance. I looked back and by that time she was pulling herself toward me.

TubularTittyFrog ,

and plenty of women who think they are 'the good ones' are an abusive psycho. and men have no way of knowing until they are abused by her.

BeefPiano ,

And George Washington Carver was genius with peanuts. Whats that got to do with the topic at hand?

kat_angstrom ,

[Thread, post or comment was deleted by the author]

    •
    TubularTittyFrog ,

    If you were a person you'd be allowed to be upset. But you're a man, men aren't people. They don't have feelings, only women do.

    gap_betweenus ,

    How about being better and validating others persons feelings instead of cheap sarcasm?

    AnotherDirtyAnglo ,

    Dude, get some therapy. The world isn't as harsh and bleak as you imply, and if your life experience hasn't already shown you that, you need to stop throwing yourself a pity party and start working on getting better so you can enjoy your life.

    TubularTittyFrog ,

    My life experience has show me people would rather scream and insult others than recognize and validate experiences and opinions that differ from theirs.

    case in point, your comment.

    AnotherDirtyAnglo ,

    You've got 25 downvotes. Take the hint: Your 'hot take' is crap, and you should work on getting better.

    All men have had shitty things happen to them. All of us have been treated unfairly. How we pick ourselves up and dust ourselves off matters.

    pmk OP ,

    What you write resonates with how I feel too. It's not fair, is it? I think there's a discussion that must happen, in the future. But right now, it's too inflamed, it's not possible. Then the question is, how do we get there? Can we get there without losing ourselves?

    UnpluggedFridge ,

    You hate the "man or bear" conversation. Imagine how much women must hate it, knowing that you and other "good men" will bemoan their feelings as soon as they express them. Think about how chilling that is to their concerns; how they have to walk on eggshells even around "good men" when they want voice legitimate concerns.

    You know who won't get offended? The bear.

    kat_angstrom ,

    [Thread, post or comment was deleted by the author]

    •
    AnotherDirtyAnglo ,

    1. Bears are omnivores and mostly eat plants/seeds/berries.
      https://www.bearsmart.com/about-bears/food-diet/

    2. Few bears hunt mammals (but we've all seen photos of them hunting fish) but when they do, they hunt young deer/elk/moose, and are more likely to scavenge winter kills or fresh kills made by others (wolves/big cats/etc.).

    AnotherDirtyAnglo ,

    The solution to this problem is to be 'better than average' and bring up the average by leading by example.

    kat_angstrom ,

    Hear hear

    Allero ,

    As one commenter stated perfectly well, the problem with "man or bear" posts is that in subtext it introduces the hostility and division towards men.

    It's not just women discussing their fears, it's women signaling "men are more dangerous than bears".

    And this rightfully insults and angers many men, as it is a direct attack based on a wide immutable identity that omits any nuance.

    Such posts do not promote any understanding of the situation, do not explore any root causes, and, from what I've gathered, comment threads are full of people telling men to shut up, either because "it's not about them" or because "women's safety are more important than men's feelings" (as if those posts promote women safety).

    This is not alright.

    JayDee ,

    Seeing all these comments that actually get it gives me hope for us dudes. I interact with so many dudebro types at work, and only have so much energy. And then coming onto Lemmy and seeing the same shit - it gets demoralizing real quick.

    We gotta get dudes out of their own heads somehow - make them actually think about how they're affecting those around them, and get them to expand the number of ways they positively affect their local sphere and minimize the negative ways.

    pmk OP ,

    There is hope, I think. I wanted to have sort of a meta-discussion about the question from a mens lib point of view. Like, this thing is circulating, it seems to be making many people upset, what is a healthy way to interpret or react to it?

    JayDee ,

    I think it's to have the conversation with those close to us
    that felt offended in a measured, methodical fashion. I find that it often seems completely foreign for some of the guys I've talked to put themselves into someone else's shoes.

    It is a slog quite often, and I think that there is some kind of training out there for having these kinds of conversations.

    As always, it's about talking to these people without getting them offended. I agree with other leftists that it's absolutely exhausting - it honestly feels like some of these dudes want nothing but to feel like the victim of the situation sometimes. I still try and talk them through it when I can.

    pmk OP ,

    it honestly feels like some of these dudes want nothing but to feel like the victim of the situation sometimes.

    A part of this could be to recognize that they too might be trying to communicate something, wanting people to listen. The stalemate of mutual lack of listening. It's really a tricky, circular thing, and probably it's hard to just say "shut up and listen" to either side, when a precondition for listening is having trust that the other one will listen too.
    I'm interested in increasing this trust between people. I also recognize that there is a level of feeling dismissed within me that makes me care less about others, and I assume that others could have that too.
    If we could figure out a way to be at least a net positive in building trust and listening, then, well, step by small step, reinforcing the mutual feeling of trust, that would be good.
    But sometimes it just feels impossible.

    Adramis ,

    How is the appropriate answer not to just kill yourself because no matter what you do, you're going to be scaring someone just for existing?

    I feel like a product of a bygone era that should just...not exist anymore. Existing as a 'good man' doesn't do any good.

    pmk OP ,

    That can never be the appropriate answer. I'm sorry if you sometimes feel like that. It can really feel like a situation with no way to win. Perhaps it's not about winning. In this case, something is being communicated. I bet that there are different things being communicated by different people, but using the same words. Someone might be trying to say "things in my past has made it difficult for me to trust men." Someone else might want to be edgy because they enjoy "kicking upward". We don't know. On the internet, the loud edgy people rule. In real life, most women I've actually talked to are much more understanding and willing to see the nuances and how complicated things can be. If the internet people are getting to you, a good exercise can be to talk to real people more. They don't want you dead. They probably want good interactions. Maybe every good interaction makes their fear diminish just a little.

    CautiousCharacter ,

    Please don't do that. All humans are products of a bygone area. We have imperfect minds and bodies that evolved to solve problems that aren't really relevant anymore. But hopefully you can find some kind of peace inside that existence. You don't have to be defined by other people's prejudice toward you.

    Have you tried therapy? I had to try multiple therapists before finding someone that worked for me, but I'm so happy I went through the process.

    JayDee ,

    It doesn't really matter if you scare someone you don't know. They don't know you either. Ultimately it's reasonable to be uncomfortable around strangers.

    If you still scare people even after interacting with them, don't take it personally. Lots of people have biases and past traumatic experiences that might paint you any which way.

    Just focus on being kind and liked by the communities you're in, and don't take a defeatist mentality over someone being scared of you at first.

    NigelFrobisher ,

    If men were a minority group, this would lead to calls for the male community to police itself and report suspicious behaviour to the authorities.

    TubularTittyFrog ,

    women aren't a minority.

    jjjalljs ,

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority_group

    In terms of sociology, economics, and politics, a demographic that takes up the smallest fraction of the population is not necessarily labelled the "minority" if it wields dominant power. In the academic context, the terms "minority" and "majority" are used in terms of hierarchical power structures.

    thatsTheCatch ,

    This is why I like the term "marginalised group." But maybe it has its own definition that I'm not using correctly or something

    JayDee ,

    I don't quite know if I understand your comment.

    By 'this' do you mean the meme, the response to the meme, or do you mean the number of SA cases done by men?

    Are you drawing parallels to cities calling upon minority communities to police themselves and report suspicious behavior to try and 'solve gang violence'?

    p5yk0t1km1r4ge , (edited )
    @p5yk0t1km1r4ge@lemmy.world avatar

    As someone who has suffered heavy physical and verbal abuse [including threats of false rape and even an instance where she said she'd hurt herself and tell everyone including the police I was the one who did it to her] from a female for 3 years and has since developed severe mental and trauma issues from it, if I said:

    "If I was given a choice to be stranded in the woods with either a bear or a woman, I would choose the bear, because the bear wouldn't accuse me of raping it if I ignored it."

    How would you feel? See, I've said this before, and I just got downvoted to oblivion because guys can't be abused! It's discrimination against women! It's sexist. How dare you not support women! It invalidates their feelings and experience with abuse! Statistically, its more likely to happen to females, so we're more understanding with their situations! HOWEVER, these same people are 100% all in on dogpiling any male with the audacity to say, "This is offensive. Not all men are like that!", and they're all too happy and eager to invalidate male experiences simply because it's "Not as common."

    Which makes it pretty obvious at this point, to me at least, that comments like this stupid "bear" comment serve only one purpose: to shit on men, simply to shit in them. It's MISANDRY but nobody wants to talk about it, because fuck men, we don't deserve support, we don't deserve validation and we don't deserve any rights. As men, we are BIG and STRONG and TOUGH and SCARY. How DARE we want to be met equally when it comes to being abused. Just shake it off!

    And there they are. The downvotes. Thanks for literally proving my point, folks.

    gap_betweenus ,

    “If I was given a choice to be stranded in the woods with either a bear or a woman, I would choose the bear, because the bear wouldn’t accuse me of raping it if I ignored it.”

    Seem like you are actually in a place to understand from your own experience what women are trying to communicate with that whole bear thing. Next step would be to try to have an empathic connection instead of a defensive one. The anger and frustration are not directed at you as an individual but are an expression of experiences, those nuances are often lost in online, non personal communication. What helps is to have more personal communication, better in an offline environment.

    Akisamb , (edited )

    I also have a similar experience, I was mugged at knife point and spit on by two adolescents. After that I was jumpy around groups of teens.

    That said , I do not think my fear of teens was rational, neither was it healthy. Only a small minority of teens will mug people. Fearing a whole group for the actions of the few is in human nature, but it is something we must fight against.

    I mean what is the end goal if women are in fear of men ? You can probably reduce violent crime even more, but it remains a rare event. Only 31 out of 1000 people were victims of a violent crime in the UK in 2010. If that doesn't work, what remains? Sex segregation ?

    gap_betweenus ,

    So you think it will help to just tell folks to not be afraid? How did you overcame your fear? What if similar experiences happened to your and your friends more than once?

    On personal level, in my experience it's best to validate someones emotions and then help them work through them if they wish so and are ready. On societal level it's another question on how to teach people more empathy and to respect for others - and at least in my opinion we already came quite a way.

    Vivendi ,
    @Vivendi@lemmy.zip avatar

    Preach brother, preach

    p5yk0t1km1r4ge ,
    @p5yk0t1km1r4ge@lemmy.world avatar

    It's a hill I will fucking die on.

    AnotherDirtyAnglo ,

    I know more than one of these men that women would rather not take a chance with... The JR/AT/JP/TradWife/dudebro types. When I asked my girlfriend about the choices, she chose 'bear' immediately, and specifically called out someone we knew, saying, "Would YOU want me to encounter <dudebro> in the forest if I didn't know him?" And she was right -- I'd prefer she choose the bear...

    And that's tragically fucking sad that someone I know is so far down the 'dudebro' rabbit hole that I wouldn't leave my GF alone with him in a compromised position.

    Corkyskog ,

    Locker rooms have taught me a sizeable percent of men are literal monsters. Like maybe 1 in 10, if even a fraction of the shit I over hear is true.

    kent_eh ,

    What do I think?

    It's fiction.

    Don't read too much into it.

    darkphotonstudio ,

    I'm a cis het man, and I'd rather be stuck in a forest with a bear than a strange man.

    thesporkeffect ,

    If you took it personally, you might be part of the problem

    Reddfugee42 ,

    Yeah, it seems the guys that heard this and just said "yeah, that tracks" have already done the thought process/critical analysis that this movement is trying to evoke

    kat_angstrom ,

    [Thread, post or comment was deleted by the author]

    •
    jjjalljs ,

    I take it personally because I hate that this is the world we’re living in

    Literally not personal. It's not about you, specifically.

    kat_angstrom ,

    [Thread, post or comment was deleted by the author]

    •
    TimewornTraveler ,

    no, it's just not personal. unless the Q was "would you rather be with kat_angstrom or bear"

    jjjalljs ,

    You can feel sad. I'm also unhappy about how I'm often viewed as a threat.

    But it's not personal. They're not looking at me, jjj, and saying I specifically scare them.

    Maybe you meant something else by "take it personally"?

    Like there's a difference between not being allowed into the bar because it's full and because you got drunk and smashed a chair last time. The second is personal.

    funkless_eck ,

    depends - as a related question - do you feel sad about locking your door because thieves exist and people didn't lock their doors until about 80-90 years ago?

    would you and do you leave your door unlocked as a sign of solidarity with the victims of theft?

    like with the original question I'm not literally asking you - I'm saying there are accepted norms in society that change.

    I dont think this question really explores a lot of global or historical context either. Do women in the 1890s in Africa feel safe alone with men? What about women in 1620s France? 1200 Roman empire? 200 BC Jordan?

    ModsAreCopsACAB , (edited )
    @ModsAreCopsACAB@lemm.ee avatar

    Or just gay? You're being an ass.

    Downvoted for being gay. So now you're a misandrist and a homophobe. Are you collecting them?

    blazeknave ,

    If you've spent any time alone in the woods, any gender would fear running into a sketchy person. I've had bear encounters. Only humans have made me wish I had a firearm to protect myself alone in the woods. I'm a man that can handle himself, and I still treat strange men as a threat.

    MystikIncarnate ,

    Bluntly, I wouldn't want to have some lady I've never met, trapped in the forest with me either. Not because I'm a bad person, far from it.

    I feel like I'd be rather handy if I was lost in a forest, but she wouldn't know that.

    Fact is, any lady weighing in on the discussion doesn't have any reasonable guarantee or even a reasonable probability of getting someone half as helpful as me, and a nontrivial chance of getting a date rapist, so I get it. The worst that a bear would do is kill and eat them, and if they're lucky, it'll happen in that order. There are fates worse than death.

    I don't take any offense at someone answering "bear". At all. It's an age old question, of the devil that you know, versus the devil that you don't. Sure, there's a non-zero chance you'll end up in the woods with bear grylls (or someone with a similar skillset), or Mr. Rogers (or similarly kind person), but the far more likely scenario is not that.

    It's not a statement against me personally as a male, it's a statement about the average man. If that offends you, there's a good chance that you're part of the problem.

    I'm not here to judge. So I'll let you decide for yourself.

    The fact is, unknown men is basically a gamble most aren't willing to make. What can we do about it? Probably somewhere between Jack and squat. Unless we can "fix" the socially inept and creepy men, as well as the rapists, would-be (opportunistic) rapists, date rapists, and just all around shitty men, pretty much all at once, this stereotype isn't going anywhere. Just be the change you want to see in the world, and try to encourage your brothers to be better.

    Lettuceeatlettuce ,
    @Lettuceeatlettuce@lemmy.ml avatar

    This whole scenario makes total sense to me. Try to put yourself in the role of the woman:

    Man vs bear, random encounter alone in the woods. Both can easily overpower and harm you.

    With the bear, you know it's one or the other, it either is going to be scared off by you yelling at it, or it's not and it will very quickly kill you.

    The man, if he intends no harm, cool. But if he does intend harm, it can be impossible to tell. He can lie to you, appear friendly and helpful, all the while plotting to harm you horrifically. The bear can have no such malice.

    The bear will not target you because of your race, sex, political views, gender identity, sexuality, or nationality.

    The bear won't pretend to be your friend to lure you into a sense of false security. The bear won't become enraged at something you say and all of a sudden turn on you.

    The bear has no fragile sense of ego that it will attempt to assert if it feels you "wounded" it in some trivial way.

    A bear cannot be brainwashed by toxic propaganda or cultural norms about gender roles. A bear will never have any sense of sexual entitlement.

    A bear won't drug you and assault you, a bear won't call its friends to join in when you are vulnerable. A bear won't hold blackmail against you after getting you drunk and manipulating you.

    If all women had to do 99.99% of the time to scare away dangerous men was stand up tall, puff our their chests, and yell loudly, I doubt we would be having this conversation.

    MareOfNights ,

    It would probably be pretty effective on men too, tho XD

    Classy ,

    If all women had to do 99.99% of the time to scare away dangerous men was stand up tall, puff our their chests, and yell loudly, I doubt we would be having this conversation.

    Not a joke, actually. By and large, predatory men prey upon weak women. Women who are afraid of conflict, afraid of drawing attention to themselves. Gavin DeBecker, author of The Gift of Fear, wrote that one of the greatest things you can do in the case of being attacked is to very loudly and boldly reject their advances. "I TOLD YOU NO, LEAVE ME ALONE." The vast majority will run away because they can't be stealthy.

    gimpchrist ,
    @gimpchrist@lemmy.world avatar

    Yeah I absolutely still don't understand what this supposed Bear meme thing is.. like I guess some girl chose to be in a room with a bear instead of in a room with a man? Was it just a meme? I have no idea what is going on or why everyone is so upset about it it seems like something to just divert attention away from something else

    Soup ,

    A bear is a known a danger and really doesn’t care about you unless you piss it off. In fact, loud noises might just scare it away even if a brown bear.

    While most men are probably safe enough to have around, enough are unsafe or just generally give off that vibe that women don’t want to be alone with them and a loud noise won’t scare them away. You might “know” you’re safe but they have zero reason to trust you.

    Sure she might get someone who wants to work together to be mutually safe and will make efforts to leave her be otherwise, but she might also get someone who stands just a bit too close, who starts trying to “help” just a bit physically, or even who starts to get frustrated when they don’t get some kind of reward for just being some minimum level of decent. And if they’re really unlucky they get someone who just sees the isolation of the situation as an opportunity.

    The bear is a known quantity. The man could be anything and there are far too many examples of every part of the spectrum. At least the bear won’t sexually assault her even at the worst.

    gimpchrist ,
    @gimpchrist@lemmy.world avatar

    Well that's just ridiculous.. a bear is a wild animal who will fucking maul you to death and eat you and doesn't care about you at all ... a man is a human being, and human beings can be reasoned with.. I don't knoooooowwwwww........ this whole thing just, again, sounds like a way to get the masses riled up about something that really doesn't matter and doesn't really even make any kind of logical sense really in the grand scheme of things... it just seems like something to argue about for argument's sake.. it's a good debate topic but that's about it.. be it resolved that men are worse than bears?? LOL I don't know whole thing is kind of silly to me.. but thank you so much for your explanation of it

    wagesj45 ,
    @wagesj45@kbin.run avatar

    It's rage bait. It just a polarizing content meant to rile up the masses and make us argue and bicker. It takes some societal grievances and amplifies them needlessly.

    gimpchrist ,
    @gimpchrist@lemmy.world avatar

    Well it sure worked haha even on Lemmy good old social conditioning

    pmk OP ,

    There's plenty of polarizing content, especially online. I think it's a good idea to talk about how we react to it. There are reactions which amplify the polarization, but perhaps also reactions that bring people together in understanding each other? At least I hope so. I just don't know what is best, to ignore suspected bait, to argue a point, to listen, to call out bad faith actors. I don't know.

    AsherahTheEnd ,

    I like how they took the time to explain it extremely well as to why us women feel this way, and your response was simply "lol nah that's bullshit".

    I'd much rather run into a bear in the woods than run into a man like you in the woods.

    gimpchrist ,
    @gimpchrist@lemmy.world avatar

    Wildly enough.... get ready for this one.. I'm a chick.
    I took the time to say thank you so much for explaining it.
    But you can't honestly genuinely tell me that you would rather be faced with a literal wild bear from actual nature, than another human being..... that's something for a therapist and not for the internet.... and if you're one of those chicks who genuinely feels that terrified of men, you need to speak to somebody because it's not natural.
    And if you're one of those chicks that gets wildly crazily madly offended to the point where they think they'd rather be trapped in a room with a wild animal with teeth and Claws that see you as food then be around another human being with an opinion, you also need a therapist, because it's the internet. It's not life or death.. which it absolutely would be with a whole actual bear in the room.

    AsherahTheEnd , (edited )

    A bear wouldn't possibly beat or torture me or rape me. A bear wouldn't try to kidnap me and lock me in its basement as its personal sex slave. A man might. A bear would simply try to eat me or run away, it's predictable. But go off about how it's totally safe to run into a strange man in the woods as a woman. 🙄

    gimpchrist ,
    @gimpchrist@lemmy.world avatar

    .....yikes.
    Have fun living in your world.
    So glad I don't live there.

    SapientLasagna ,

    As a guy, I don't know shit about women, but bears are absolutely famous for being unpredictable. That's why they're considered dangerous. Not like moose, which are dangerous for being gigantic and incredibly dumb.

    otp ,

    Bears also love in the woods, so it's pretty normal for bears to be there. There's a decent chance it's just minding its business. I wouldn't want to be around a bear, but I also wouldn't want to be around a man with bad intentions.

    Humans are also absolutely famous for being unpredictable, fwiw

    gimpchrist ,
    @gimpchrist@lemmy.world avatar

    Like just rearrange your sentence... men also live on planet Earth so it's pretty normal for men to be there there's a decent chance it's just minding it's business I wouldn't want to be around a man but I also wouldn't want to be around a man with bad intentions do you see how shitty that sounds when you say you don't want to be around all men? Because of men with bad intentions? All bears will eat you not all men will rape you

    otp ,

    men also live on planet Earth

    This means nothing. We're talking about wild animals in their natural habitat. Most animals in their natural habitat want to be left alone. Humans are not natural prey or threats to bears, so they generally wouldn't want to fight or hunt a human.

    don't want to be around all men? Because of men with bad intentions?

    I think that's something that needs to be taken up with men (because it's impossible to pick out just the ones with bad intentions).

    That's part of the problem.

    The other part of the problem is the fact that being alone in the woods and spotting a bear minding its business sounds like a normal event. Being alone in the woods and spotting a strange man sounds like an abnormal event.

    Bears don't really hunt humans. Some men do hunt women. And there's enough of them (and it could be any man) that a lot of women are afraid of strange men.

    Take it up with the men.

    gimpchrist ,
    @gimpchrist@lemmy.world avatar

    Another part of the problem is seeing a man in the woods and Assuming he's a murderer instead of thinking oh maybe he's geocaching or maybe he's hunting or maybe he's collecting mushrooms or maybe he's a photographer or maybe he just likes being in the woods or maybe he's going fishing or maybe he has a family that he's providing for or maybe he's an artist like there are so many other things to think of a man in the woods then oh my God this man is going to rape murder and stalk me to death I'm going to die. The 'othering' of men is an actual danger to society.

    Men aren't raised by bears.. maybe we should take it up with the women who are raising the men.

    otp ,

    maybe we should take it up with the women who are raising the men.

    Lmao, so you're just sexist, huh?

    gimpchrist ,
    @gimpchrist@lemmy.world avatar

    Sounds like everyone on this threat is.. men aren't inherently fucking dangerous just because you are scared of them

    otp ,

    I think you need to work on your perspective-taking skills.

    It seems like what's happening is that women on social media are sharing that they feel inherently unsafe around strange men in remote and unexpected places, and your reaction is "That hurts my feelings as a man, and those women are wrong!"...

    If you're not dangerous, that's great. Your feelings for assuming you're being generalized are valid.

    If a woman reacts to you, unprompted, with fear, I think it's important to understand the reasons why she might react that way, rather than be angry about her fear. Frankly, getting angry at someone's fear would most likely reinforce that fear. And I think understanding would help reduce the anger you feel.

    gimpchrist ,
    @gimpchrist@lemmy.world avatar

    It's very interesting to me that everybody thinks I'm a man.

    otp ,

    You're right, my apologies for assuming.

    Eranziel ,

    I see you're one of the 2/3 of women who haven't been sexually assaulted by a man. That's good, I'm glad for you. But, as a man and in view of those statistics, I have to say it's entirely justified for most women to prefer the bear.

    gimpchrist ,
    @gimpchrist@lemmy.world avatar

    That there is not true as well... I've been assaulted more than most.
    I've been a sex worker.
    But I've also been in the woods and seen what an actual bear looks like and did not fucking stick around. It's a bear.. I don't know what everybody doesn't get about that it's a bear.

    exocrinous ,

    Alright, so I'm on team "alone in the woods with a bear", but since you want to talk statistics, let's talk statistics and the heteronormativity embedded in your statistics.

    The figure I'm familiar with is that 1/4 of women have been sexually assaulted. Maybe you have a figure that says 1/3, that's fine. But crucially, these figures do not say who did it. What you've made is an assumption that women only get sexually assaulted by men. Personally, I think that the vast, vast majority of sexual assaults on women are done by men. But not all. I don't believe you can transfer those two statistics - women sexually assaulted and women sexually assaulted by a man - 1:1.

    Let me explain where I'm coming from. Half of transgender and nonbinary people have been sexually assaulted. That's double the number of women! This factor, double, is consistent across sources I've seen that investigate both figures with the same methodology. You might have a source that says 1/3 of women are sexually assaulted, that's fine, but the ones that investigate rates for both women and trans people say it's twice as many trans people.

    I could go ahead and assume, if I wanted, that half of all trans people have been sexually assaulted by a cis person. That's the same assumption you made that 1/3 or 1/4 of women have been sexually assaulted by a man. But it's a bad assumption. I know lots of trans people who've been sexually assaulted, and most of the time it was by a fellow trans person. You see, trans people have our own community that's isolated from the cisgender dating scene as a matter of safety, and that means isolated, lonely people let their guard down around fellow transes and the victims can't get away from their abusers, nor are trans friends of trans abusers willing to give up a social network in which the abuser is embedded. It's messy and disgusting and it wouldn't be a problem if cis people just accepted us, but it's where we are. I would be wrong to assume all rapists of trans people are cis people.

    And I read way too deep into your comment and got a vibe that you were making the assumption that all sexual abusers of women are men. You probably don't actually think that and didn't mean to make any kind of implication along those lines. So I'm just leaving this comment as a general reminder not to use heteronormativity to inform our statistical analyses.

    TubularTittyFrog ,

    and it's entirely justified for a devout religious person to avoid sin.

    and i will think they are an asshole if they go around telling me how sinful and awful i am for not believing what they believe.

    gap_betweenus ,

    It's just a way to illustrate how a lot of women feel around men. No one is actually going into the woods to meet a bear.

  • All
  • Subscribed
  • Moderated
  • Favorites
  • •
  • random
  • [email protected]
  • All magazines
    •