About the bear...

So, I'm just assuming we've all seen the discussions about the bear.
Personally I feel that this is an opportunity for everyone to stop and think a little about it.
The knee-jerk reaction from many men seems to be something along the lines of "You would choose a dangerous animal over me? That makes me feel bad about myself." which results in endless comments of the "Akchully... according to Bayes theorem you are much more likely to..." kind.
It should be clear by now that it doesn't lead to good places.
Maybe, and I'm open to being wrong, but maybe the real message is women saying: "We are scared of unknown men."
Then, if that is the message intended, what do we do next? Maybe the best thing is just to listen. To ask questions. What have you experienced to make you feel that way?
I firmly believe that the empathy we give lays a foundation for other people being willing to have empathy for the things we try to communicate.
It doesn't mean we should feel bad about ourselves, but just to recognize that someone is trying to say something, and it's not a technical discussion about bears.
What do you think?

Simulation6 ,

I don’t understand why this is a problem. I would choose an animal over a human, man or woman.

UnpluggedFridge ,

There is a book I will mention that will get me downvoted to oblivion, but it is very relevant to this discussion. It is called "White Fragility" and it discusses the following phenomenon: When vulnerable groups express criticism of societal problems, individuals will take that criticism personally and redirect the conversation towards their feelings. This has the effect, whether intended or otherwise, of shutting out the voice of the vulnerable group and forestalling any meaningful change. The book identifies this phenomenon in discussions of race, but I hope you can identify the parallels.

HauntedCupcake ,

Does it suggest any solutions? I totally see the parallel

HelixDab2 ,

maybe the real message is women saying: “We are scared of unknown men.”

It's not unknown men, it's alone with men, period. Most sexual assaults are not stranger-rapes; they're sexual assaults being committed by a person that was known to the victim. Often it's an intimate partner, a date, a close friend, or someone that they went to class/church/etc. with. If people you know aren't safe, then how could you trust strangers?

gimpchrist ,
@gimpchrist@lemmy.world avatar

I mean in that case No One Is Safe

HelixDab2 ,

No one alone with no witnesses, at least. And there's the issue, isn't it? It's not, "would you rather be in a crowded bar with a mix of men and women, --or-- would you rather be in a crowded bar full of bears".

mrcleanup ,

Yeah, I think that's the point. If you feel unsafe long enough you become willing to risk the bear. At least it's a different danger.

TubularTittyFrog ,

Strangers are more statistically safe.

Also, most folks are horrible judges of character and intention. Scumbags are usually the most charming, outgoing, and well-liked people, and yet most people think the awkward weirdo in the corner bothering nobody is the 'threat'.

gap_betweenus ,

Made me realize (hyperbole) how literal people are, how ready some are to dig their heels in and not interested in listening at all. If one ever had a conversation with a women (hyperbole), the unsafe feeling is something that comes up pretty often (I guess the women has to feel safe around you - so maybe there is that) and is sadly based on personal negative experiences they had.

pmk OP ,

I agree, This polarization is something I wish we had a strategy against. Or, at least, the knowledge to identify something as likely to result in heel-digging. The reason I believe we should discuss this meme here is not to figure out the statistics of wildlife, but to gain insights about how certain things affect us, and what type of response is desired and helpful.

gap_betweenus ,

At least for me the question is how to talk to people who don't want to listen. And the easiest answer is obviously not to, but that does not work in long term since it just enforces the existing echo chambers.

Notyou ,
@Notyou@sopuli.xyz avatar

I read somewhere and like to mention it to other guys when it comes up in conversation about the difference between a man's and woman's greatest fear on a date.

The man is usually scared of being laughed at or rejected. The woman is usually scared of being killed.

It kinda puts things into perspective for me.

quindraco ,

Then, if that is the message intended, what do we do next?

Fuck off.

When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time. - Maya Angelou

If a woman tells you you threaten her more than a wild bear does, fucking listen, then fuck off. She is actively telling you you frighten her more than a fucking polar or grizzly. Why would you stick around? Do you enjoy terrifying people? Show some fucking respect and leave her alone forever, like she literally just asked you to. As a free bonus, you'll never have to hear her say it to you again.

otp ,

Maybe it depends on the type of bear.

If it's brown, lay down. If it's black, fight back. If it's white, say good night (RIP).

On the other side of things, there's probably the context. Some women would never go into the woods at all, so if they're there with a strange man, things are probably going to get bad.

But if there's a bear, they're probably alone, and just need to leave the area. The bear lives in the woods (unless it's a polar bear), and it's probably minding its own business.

quindraco ,

Maybe what depends on the type of bear? Because the context is what a man should do when a woman tells him she'd rather be near a bear than him.

exocrinous ,

I'd love to hang out with a sun bear.

Sun bears are shy and reclusive animals, and usually do not attack humans unless provoked to do so, or if they are injured or with their cubs; their timid nature led these bears to be often tamed and kept as pets in the past

Definitely would rather be in the woods with a strange sun bear than a strange man. What if he tries to get me into Magic The Gathering?

SapientLasagna ,

But she's not telling me, is she? She's telling every man everywhere, forever. I can't do anything with that information, except wonder if she's calling for all men and women to be strictly segregated for women's safety. At which point you've gone so far into nth-wave feminism that you've arrived at Saudi society as as model.

quindraco ,

It's woman specific, because she can't speak for any woman but her, and her rights matter no more than yours do, if you're concerned about situations where you both want or need to be in the same space.

TubularTittyFrog ,

IME the women who do this are the one who are the predators.

so yeah, if a unhinged lady goes off on me how i'm a huge threat to her, i do fuck off, because she's probably a psycho. normal, well adjusting folks don't go off on random strangers minding their own business.

I hike all the time. Nobody says more than a polite hi, or a wave or nod. men and women, solo, or in groups.

fracture ,

i had to google this because i am not a tiktok-er, and apparently women (? sample size?) are commonly stating that they would rather encounter a bear than a man if they were alone in the woods

interesting point that men often also chose the bear for the question of if they would rather have their wife / daughter stuck in the woods with a bear or a man, so that says a lot about men, as well, i think

we can derive some other mildly interesting points from this, like viewing sexual violence as potentially worse than non-sexual but fatal violence. or like, that one might have to live with societal judgement of having been sexually assaulted because there's still a lot of assumptions that you initiated it somehow (rape culture) vs people universally having sympathy for the victim of an animal attack

overall, the unfortunate reality is that women generally view men or people who look like men as dangerous. i'm a transgender man and i've observed this phenomenon in a very real way as women have gone from generally friendly or neutral to detached. it sucks, but it's not personal

however, if this really bothers you, there are actually some things you can do to help women feel more comfortable around you. this is not like... a guarantee. at the end of the day, you're gonna have to live with jumpscaring some women if you round a corner too quick at them. that's how life is. but, if you want to give them some signs you are not a violent person, not as a way to trick them into trusting you, but as a genuine attempt to help them feel safe:

if you change your style to be more feminine, even in subtle ways, like wearing a pink shirt or pink shoes. if you have a man purse. you don't really need to go full femme but if you express yourself in a way that makes you look like someone secure in your masculinity (actual), it will help women understand you're not really a threat

which i think, generally, reflects that women understand that patriarchy isn't about men as a whole, but rather that most men haven't confronted the ideas they were raised with in order to "be a man", and those are the dangerous ideas they need to avoid to be safe

i think there is also an idea that expressing yourself as a softer or more feminine man will make it harder for you to get laid, and i think this may be true. however, i would suggest that women who only wanna fuck you because you're traditionally masculine are not really the women you wanna be fucking, because they're (probably) going to bring their own ideas of toxic masculinity to enforce on you. those are the women who are more concerned with whether or not e.g. you can change the oil on their car, that you are a "real man", and hopefully it goes without saying that those are the ideas you want to avoid reinforcing / internalizing, even if that means turning down a sexual partner

baggins ,

You also have a much better chance of scaring off a pursuing bear than a pursuing man.

solarvector ,

That's an interesting assumption.

If your first assumption is wrong then this is just a weird and rambling post. That is somehow about bears.

Feathercrown ,

Just look it up

better_world ,

In corporate contexts, black women feel about white men the way that women felt about bears in the first question... and this prompted a similarly negative reaction from white women.

TexMexBazooka ,

What the duck is going on?

refalo ,

https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/news/2024/04/30/man-bear-tiktok-debate-explainer/73519921007/

Shalakushka ,
@Shalakushka@kbin.social avatar

My grandparents would say something similar to this TikToker about certain "kinds" of people, and I rightfully consider them fucking abhorrent for it. I consider someone who would unironically say this kind of shit to be the same kind of abhorrent.

exocrinous ,

Okay so what you're getting at is that this kind of speech is violent. It acknowledges a conflict and seeks to further a particular side through the adoption of defensive behaviours and attitudes. And you're taking a position that all violence is bad. But you're wrong. Violence, as you and I are defining it here, is a necessary part of self defence. Violence in self defence can put a stop to violence in aggression. A pacifist who is concerned with all violence, rather than just their own, has a moral obligation to defend the weak, using violence if necessary.

Your racist grandparents were members of the oppressor class, seeking to do violence against the oppressed, and were therefore contributing to the cycle of violence. But the woman who wrote this article, is trying to stop the cycle of violence by engaging in a defensive form of violence against an oppressor class in response to violence by that class. That's not the same thing.

Soup ,

It’s not a maybe, that’s literally the entire point of the message. Unknown men are all too often kinda shitty because we have zero systems in place to teach men how to be good people and many systemic ways in which we’re told that we’re automatically better. We’re generally physically bigger, generally stronger, and, for the most part, taught to be entitled to a woman we happen to fancy.

But yes, you’ve read it correctly and we shouldn’t be getting upset but instead working on making ourselves more trustworthy. And it won’t happen in our lifetimes but it’ll be progress.

Aussiemandeus ,
@Aussiemandeus@aussie.zone avatar

Who teaches you that you're entitled to a woman you fancy?

PoliticalAgitator ,

Andrew Tate

flicker ,

Traditional Western media. The hero always gets the girl?

exocrinous ,

Le Roman de la Rose, a mediaeval French poem that informed the tropes of western heterosexual media for the last thousand years.

Default_Defect ,
@Default_Defect@midwest.social avatar

My take is that the people that would benefit the most from the introspection this hypothetical is meant to illicit are the furthest from being able to take it to heart. It works better as a way to make the worst people around you out themselves, so now you know to avoid them.

ryathal ,

For those that haven't seen it, the bear meme is an article some lady wrote. A majority of women would rather be alone in the woods with a random bear, than a random man. Then she posted about getting hate mail for that.

Aussiemandeus ,
@Aussiemandeus@aussie.zone avatar

Oh I read it as beer and was confused for a while

flicker ,

I would love to be in the woods with beer.

The "random" part does really take the fun out of it though.

ryathal ,

Free beer is my favorite brand.

Dasus ,

I have no idea what you're talking about.

DerisionConsulting ,

There was a thing where a woman said that she would feel more safe in a forest with a random bear than with a random man. Then the people who would comment on this type of thing commented, then the kinds of people who comment on the comments did their thing.

Dasus ,

Ah.

Thanks.

It might feel something is "known by everyone" when one sees a thing frequently, but usually, it isn't..

DerisionConsulting ,

The internet is large and there is no way that everyone sees all of the same things as each other, especially when most of the "conversation" about the topic happens on a different platform.

Dasus ,

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/d66e1dd0-9e3a-4ad0-aed7-f26745090b1e.gif

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