Bernie Sanders urges left to back Biden to stop ‘very dangerous’ Trump ( www.theguardian.com )

Leftwing senator advises ‘unification of progressive people in general’ because threat from Republican ex-president is too great

Progressive US voters must unite behind Joe Biden rather than consider any of his Democratic primary challengers because the threat of another Donald Trump presidency is too great, Bernie Sanders has said.

“We’re taking on the … former president, who, in fact, does not believe in democracy – he is an authoritarian, and a very, very dangerous person,” the senator and Vermont independent, who caucuses with Democrats, said on NBC’s Meet the Press. “I think at this moment there has to be unification of progressive people in general in all of this country.”

Sanders’ remarks came as Trump continued grappling with more than 90 criminal charges across four separate indictments filed against him for his efforts to forcibly nullify his defeat to Biden in the 2020 presidential race, his illicit retention of classified documents, and hush-money payments to porn actor Stormy Daniels.

Despite the unprecedented legal peril confronting him, Trump enjoys a commanding lead over his competitors in the Republican presidential primary, polls show.

And though polling for now shows Biden generally is ahead of Trump, that has not stopped Robert F Kennedy Jr and Marianne Williamson from mounting long-shot Democratic primary challenges – or third-party progressive candidate Cornel West from running.

Sanders himself was the runner-up for the Democratic nomination in the 2016 White House race won by Trump and in 2020, with West among his supporters. But Sanders this time quickly endorsed Biden’s re-election campaign, a decision which prompted West to accuse him of only backing Biden because he is “fearful of the neo-fascism of Trump”.

The senator responded to that criticism on Sunday on CNN’s State of the Union, saying, “Where I disagree with my good friend Cornel West is – I think, in these really very difficult times, there is a real question whether democracy is going to remain in the United States of America.

“You know, Donald Trump is not somebody who believes in democracy, whether women are going to be able to continue to control their own bodies, whether we have social justice in America, [whether] we end bigotry.”

Sanders didn’t elaborate, but his remarks seemed to be an allusion to the Trump White House’s creation of the US supreme court supermajority, which last year struck down the federal abortion rights that the Roe v Wade decision had established decades earlier.

That court also struck down race-conscious admissions in higher education as well as a Colorado law that required entities to afford same-sex couples equal treatment, among other decisions lamented by progressives.

“Around that, I think we have got to bring the entire progressive community to defeat Trump – or whoever the Republican nominee will be – [and] support Biden,” Sanders added on State of the Union.

Sanders nonetheless said he planned to push Biden to tackle “corporate greed and the massive levels of income and wealth inequality” across the US. On Meet the Press, he suggested he would urge Biden to “take on the billionaire class”.

Those comments came about four months after Sanders called on the US government to confiscate 100% of any money that Americans make above $999m, saying people with that much wealth “can survive just fine” without becoming billionaires.

SpaceCowboy ,
@SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

A lot of people have been taught to have an idealized concept about Democracy.

The reality is democracy is the worst system… except for all the others.

In an ideal world you’d be able to vote for a candidate that is a perfect match for your political positions. But we’re pretty fucking far from an ideal world.

The reality of democracy is that isn’t about getting exactly what you want. It really only gives you a way to remove terrible people from power. And keep terrible people from gaining power.

Yeah that sucks, but it’s better than living in an authoritarian system where you have to use violence to remove terrible people from power. And likely fail and die while attempting to do so.

If Trump wins, that’s what it’ll be, an authoritarian system where you can’t remove the terrible person from power by voting.

If Biden wins, it’ll be more bullshit, but you’ll be able to vote again in the next election after that.

Gargantu8 ,

Do you really think you can reduce democracy down to being able to remove the worst people? I don’t necessarily disagree just find that interesting. What about if we also had ranked choice?

PersnickityPenguin ,

There best form of government is an enlightened despot, it so I’ve read. However if the wind of the king are law, then when things go bad, they really go bad. And the transition of power gets ugly.

SkyeStarfall ,

This is a bit of an odd take considering other countries already have better versions of democratic systems. Just take a page out of their books.

Comment105 ,

The problem with democracy is that humans are actually stupid fucking apes and they fear math, so they simplify the math to the point of undermining the whole system.

This problem also shows up in some welfare systems with a simple rather than gradual cutoff if you start working more. Stay below 60% employment or lose all help immediately.

MoonRaven ,
@MoonRaven@feddit.nl avatar

This is why the 2 party system is fucking bad. In the Netherlands we have a wide range of parties we can vote for, no need for strategic votes like this.

ezterry ,

It’s a symptom of the winner takes all election system… Its most stable with one or two major parties. The hope for more parties is one reason some of us push for instant runoff elections, but it “confuses” people so its not had the traction I’d like.

Tak ,
@Tak@lemmy.ml avatar

The US can’t support more than two parties with how the elections are run. Instead the primaries have to filter down the varied candidates into compromises

Pipoca ,

Britain uses the same system and has some successful third parties like the Scottish National Party.

Regional third parties tend to dramatically outperform national ones. Because FPTP does best with 2 candidate elections, but those 2 candidates don’t have to be in the same party across every district.

For presidential elections - yeah. You run a third party candidate like Nader, you get Bush. You run Perot, you get Clinton.

Tak ,
@Tak@lemmy.ml avatar

How is it the same system?

Sean ,
@Sean@liberal.city avatar

@Tak @Pipoca both the US and the UK have fptp single member districts for national legislature, so the expectation would be that in the UK parliament they'd only have Labour and Tories, no 3rd parties representing regional issues, just wings of the duopoply serving that purpose. But the difference isn't derived in that both have FPTP, but that the US has a media environment that propagates binary choices, BBC still strives for viewership but not the extent that US MSM does via oversimplification

Tak ,
@Tak@lemmy.ml avatar

Doesn’t that not include basically anything else but that factor and then labeled as the same thing for the sake of argument? How does that relate to funding, regulation, power structures, and much more nuanced factors?

The US has always been a two party system from the start back before there was a BBC. Are we going to say Fox news created the original contention of federalists and antifederalists?

SkyeStarfall ,

It seriously gives some really bad incentives.

Yes, voting for Biden is better… But it also very much allows the Democrats to abuse the situation and put whoever they want on there. Because the alternative will always be worse. And so you’re destined to always having an acceptable president, but never a great one that people really want.

We have a parliament here and, yeah, it’s so much better in basically every way. I can actually vote for what I want and not have to worry that it’s not strategic. Because I’m the end it will just empower the party and thus give them more negotiating power.

fushuan ,

We also have more than 2 parties in Spain, however the way votes are counted it’s better to vote for the big parties than the local ones. Literally, voting your local party and them supporting the big “left” party will amount less seats than just voting the big party. Usually people vote locally but since we have the looming danger of the extreme right party, people have been focusing on the big left, just to ensure that we don’t get Vox.

Still having more than 2 parties promotes discussion and makes it really difficult for a party to go rogue.

Aceticon , (edited )

The Netherlands has proportional vote, that’s why.

With electoral circles instead of PV, mathematically the two largest parties get way more representatives than the percentage of the public votes they get, and the bigger the electoral circles and fewer the representatives the worse it gets.

(Further, voters own behaviour changes to one of “useful vote” rather than “choosing those who better represents them”, plus tribalism becomes way more extreme when there is only a black & white choice - so lots of votes are driven by team loyalty - all of which makes it even worse)

(Also smaller parties dissapear, both because they can’t secure funding and because their members lose hope of ever making a difference. The closest you get to “small parties” in the US are independents, running for a very specific electoral circle only and whose voice is a drop in the ocean in a place like the US Congress)

The US has single representative very large electoral circles for Congress and double representative State-sized electoral circles for the Senate, so their system is rigged to pretty much the max it can and the result is a power duopoly.

I lived in The Netherlands and now I live in a country where the system is somewhat less so (smaller electoral circles, multiple representatives per circle) and even here you see the two largest parties getting and extra 10-20% each representatives in parliament compared to the popular vote (the governing party has 56% of parliamentary seats on 42% of votes cast) whilst the smaller parties have half as many representatives as their popular vote (in other words, every vote for a smaller party counts less than half as much as a vote for a large party, which is hardly democratic).

Most so-called “democratic” nations have this kind of rigged system, but places like the US and Britain take it to the extreme, so it’s unsurprising that when the economic supercycle is at the point where the many start hurting, in the absence of true choice you get instead the internal takeover of the rightmost of the party dupoly by the Trumps and Boris Johnsons of this world offering an ultra-nationalist far-right populist mix of othering, scapegoating and simple “solutions”.

(Funilly enough if you compare The Netherlands with Britain, whilst even now the far-right is stuck at maybe 20% in the former, in the latter it took over the Tory Party from the inside - which is far easier than convince half the population to vote for them - and hence has been in power for almost a decade with an absolute majority).

Lols ,

in theory, in practice strategic votes still matter for the actual government because parties can just decide not to work with someone and the biggest party gets first picks for the coalition

meaning that in practice, having the biggest party still matters massively, and in a mostly right wing country, the right gets to vote for who best represents them, while the left still has to vote strategically if they want to take actual administrative positions

tryptaminev ,
@tryptaminev@feddit.de avatar

I’d like to disagree. strategic voting means you shift your vote to what you suppose to be more majority carrying, which usually tends to go for centrists with quite some neoliberal positions. And they usually manage to put through the same shit as the right on economic issues, or implementing authoritarian attacks on civil rights, like mass surveilance.

It is the same thing in the US. There is the far right extremist republicans and the right wing democrats (by european standards) because they try to cover the supposed center, and everyone left of that still votes for them. So in the end they still get no health care, no social security, lots of warmongering, bad schools and institutionalized racism…

In Germany we get the same bs with people voting social democrats “strategically”, that end up pushing for neoliberal economic policies and authoritarian social policies.

Lols ,

im not sure what youre disagreeing with

giantofthenorth ,

Damn. Maybe he should run again so we can at least get a good old man in office

IDontHavePantsOn ,

The DNC would never allow it. They have actively worked against him twice and at least once they took bribes. Ahem. Sorry. Contingency based donations.

Him telling anyone to back Biden shows they have a political gun to his back, but God do we need him in office. Too bad the rich are for some reason opposed to taxing the the rich 🤷

Grant_M ,
@Grant_M@lemmy.ca avatar

Bernie is telling everyone Joe Biden is a good guy and his friend.

DragonTypeWyvern ,

Bernie should tell his good friend to conditionally veto KOSA because he got played like some kind of sucker that doesn’t read the bills he supports.

cabron_offsets ,

Fuck no. And that’s coming from a guy who voted for Bernie in the 2016 primary. We can’t risk such dumbfuckery.

Dubious_Fart ,

I’m really sick of thhe fact that avoiding Americas descent into full blown 4th Reich fascism is dependent on idiots in the voting booth.

Grant_M ,
@Grant_M@lemmy.ca avatar

Bernie has it right again.

clutchmatic ,

I like Bernie but he should retire and coach the next generation of Dem leaders

dQw4w9WgXcQ ,

Both Bernie and Biden seem like great people, but I’d much rather see them consulting a younger generation than having either of them at the top.

Omniraptor ,

Being called a “great person” imo should take a history of fighting for equality and dignity for everyone, and for most of his long career Biden has been doing the opposite of that.

davi ,

Both Bernie and Biden seem like great people

a 30 second google search and the plentiful articles and videos it’ll show you of biden being racist, homophobic and classicist during his entire career and defending those racist, homophobic and classicist decisions during his campaign in 2020 proves that you’re either patsy or a shill.

dQw4w9WgXcQ ,

Sure, I haven’t done my research, and the politics of the last few years is basically all I’ve got to go by. And that’s mainly through Norwegian media, which maybe doesn’t dive too deep into the history of the people.

With that said… Chill dude.

meyotch ,

He has been mentoring for years. He is a better mentor while still in office where he can work side by side with freshpersons.

Grant_M ,
@Grant_M@lemmy.ca avatar

He’s coaching now.

iByteABit ,

It’s sad for Bernie and other leftist parties that they can mathematically never get into power, but this is the smartest thing he can do given the system. Use his publicity to promote the closest party to his own so that the fascists don’t get into power.

Dagwood222 ,

This is what the extreme Right did. The Moral Majority would show up at every local GOP meeting. If the local club usually had twenty people at the meeting, the MMs would show up with fifty. Picking the candidate for dog catcher or justice of the peace? The MM were there and they made sure they got their candidate in.

Nixon did something similar. After he failed to win the Senate seat he hit the road and campaigned hard for every GOP he could find. By 1968 he had dozens of delegates to the national convention in his pocket.

iByteABit ,

A faulty system is bound to be worked around and taken advantage of by everyone that is able to. The US is very far from a democracy because of it, and it won’t change because the most powerful people will do anything to keep it in place.

Blackmist ,

If your whole selling point is “Yeah, things are still gonna be shit for you, but at least we’re not Nazis!” then at some point you’re going to lose again.

Yeah, life is going to be no better under the Republicans either, but some people’s lives will be significantly worse, and for some voters, that’s enough.

“He’s not hurting the people he needs to be hurting.” That’s an actual quote from an actual Trump voter. That’s what you’re dealing with. For some, happiness is a zero sum game. They’ll quite happily suck down a spoonful of warm shit if some other sucker has to suck down two.

cabron_offsets ,

The problem is corollary to your point (which doesn’t diminish your point in the least). Most people are rational actors. They won’t eat shit. That’s why the republican traitor filth will never win the popular vote. The problem is the fucking bullshit electoral college. The shit eaters have an undue advantage. The electoral college is tyranny.

Blackmist ,

That may be so, but isn’t the result always a little bit closer to 50/50 than most of us are comfortable with?

The fate of the most powerful country on Earth hangs on the whims of a tiny percentage of voters in swing states. If you live somewhere like Houston your vote does not matter. That state is going red and always will. It’s batshit insane that a state can be 48/52 and that just counts exactly as if it was 0/100.

sentient_loom ,
@sentient_loom@sh.itjust.works avatar

The real problem is that they’re all traitorous filth. Trump is objectively worse, but he also doesn’t hide it, and that appeals to people.

Sanders was the only legit alternative in literally decades but now he has to be subservient to Biden.

There is no solution on the horizon. I agree that people should vote Biden… but in truth Biden should be replaced with an actual leader. That won’t happen. And while the Democrats remain almost as evil as the Republicans it’s gonna be a hard sell.

Sean ,
@Sean@liberal.city avatar

@sentient_loom @cabron_offsets Sanders has been put into a trance of feeling "heard" by Biden while being neutered in any chance of delivering real material benefit to the people. His career as being a truth-speaker from outside the elite, he's shot his shot to do some real good and will probably retire next year.

killa44 ,

I mean, he is old af too.

davi ,

and still more progressive than democrats have ever been and will ever be.

Noughmad ,

Most people are rational actors

Have you met any people?

Syrc ,

If your whole selling point is “Yeah, things are still gonna be shit for you, but at least we’re not Nazis!” then at some point you’re going to lose again.

Exactly what happened in Italy. Why is the left all over the world unable to present an actually competent and charismatic candidate?

fadingembers ,
@fadingembers@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Because the capitalist class still controls them, curtailing any candidates that would be a threat to their power.

t_jpeg ,

Literally. When the capitalist class are the ones funding the majority if political parties in your country, you are left with either voting for a really right wing candidate or a slightly less right wing candidate.

Blackmist ,

“It comes from a very ancient democracy, you see…"

“You mean, it comes from a world of lizards?”

“No,” said Ford, who by this time was a little more rational and coherent than he had been, having finally had the coffee forced down him, “nothing so simple. Nothing anything like so straightforward. On its world, the people are people. The leaders are lizards. The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people.”

“Odd,” said Arthur, “I thought you said it was a democracy.”

“I did,” said Ford. “It is.”

“So,” said Arthur, hoping he wasn’t sounding ridiculously obtuse, “why don’t people get rid of the lizards?”

“It honestly doesn’t occur to them,” said Ford. “They’ve all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they’ve voted in more or less approximates to the government they want.”

“You mean they actually vote for the lizards?”

“Oh yes,” said Ford with a shrug, “of course.”

“But,” said Arthur, going for the big one again, “why?”

“Because if they didn’t vote for a lizard,” said Ford, “the wrong lizard might get in.”

hangonasecond ,

What’s this from?

wanderingmagus ,

Ultimate Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy, Douglas Adams

gibmiser ,

Sounds like one of Douglas Adams’ Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy books

the_post_of_tom_joad , (edited )

I’m sure you’ve heard this before but it bears repeating that what we call the left is actually the left section of the right wing. There are no left wing parties with a majority anywhere in the world

AngryCommieKender ,

Then run yourself. Be your own Goldie Wilson. I am, though that is because my neighbors keep telling me to run for city council.

TeenieBopper ,

Look. Am I going to vote for whoever the democratic nominee is? Yeah.

Am I going to be saying the democratic party is generally also racist, transobobic, capitalist, and don’t really give a shit about you? Also yes.

The republican party being more racist, transobobic, and capitalist doesn’t mean the democratic party isn’t. And I’m sick of people pretending otherwise.

Aceticon ,

The system is rigged, hence the only choice is between evils.

No wonder american politicians are constantly harping about how the US is such a “Great Democracy” - it’s to compensate just how much the mathematically rigged for political duopoly american system fails to represent the will of the average citizen, unlike an actual Democracy.

JustZ ,
@JustZ@lemmy.world avatar

Nah, we almost had Bernie. We had FDR. We will prevail again.

norbert ,
@norbert@kbin.social avatar

This right here folks, goddamned right. Organize, talk to your friends, and go vote every single election, participate. Get involved, canvas for local people you like, run for something; you'd be surprised how many city council seats or streets commissioner slots are completely vacant. The deck is stacked against us, the Republican party has been cultivating their bigoted base for 70 years and it's moved the entire country significantly right. We need to begin doing the same thing now if we want to win against the strain of Christo-fascism/Corporatocracy growing here in the U.S. There are only three boxes: soap, ballot, and bullet. We obviously all love using our soapbox, I'd recommend trying the ballot as well. The other box likely ends badly for a lot of people and should be avoided while the other two are still options. If we organize and vote we can absolutely drag the country back to left.

Did you guys hear about that black guy that became mayor of the racist little town simply by filling out the paperwork? We need more of that energy.

AngryCommieKender ,

Was there ever a resolution to that? Seriously the FBI should have been arresting the assholes that were preventing the Mayor from doing his job.

traches ,

…. You watch republicans force kids to detransition and say “yeah but the dems are just as bad”?

Like I get that they’re not perfect but holy fuck shit jesus are the republicans a bunch of ghouls. Not a single candidate even acknowledged that climate change is happening at their debate; I got kids who will have to grow up in this world dude.

Both sides my ass, only one is trying to make gilead a reality and just because the other doesn’t pass leftist purity testing doesn’t put them on the same level as actual fascists.

Lols , (edited )

you missed the word ‘more’

its right here in this sentence (ill make it bold for you):

The republican party being more racist, transobobic, and capitalist doesn’t mean the democratic party isn’t.

the word ‘more’ in that sentence means they’re in fact not saying dems are just as bad, or on the same level as actual fascists, theyre explicitly and literally saying democrats are not as bad

easy mistake to make, hope this helps

traches ,

Kinda doing some heavy lifting don’t you think? One side is banning books written by minorities and replacing them with pragerU propaganda, the other is…. not doing that? And you’re painting them with the same brush?

Lols ,

And you’re painting them with the same brush?

you missed the word ‘more’

its right here in this sentence (ill make it bold and italicised for you, and put arrows around it):

The republican party being -> more <- racist, transobobic, and capitalist doesn’t mean the democratic party isn’t.

the word ‘more’ in that sentence means they’re in fact not painting democrats and republicans with the same brush, theyre explicitly, literally and unambiguously saying democrats are not as bad

‘democrats are not as bad as republicans’ is not painting them with the same brush

likewise, ignoring racism and transphobia or demanding others do so because its your team doing it is not protecting minorities, its actually just accepting racism and transphobia as the price of doing business, which is horrible

easy mistake to make, hope this helps

traches ,

We’re staring down the barrel of theocratic fascism and you’re purity testing the only viable alternative.

They’re saying “they’re both sons of bitches but one is more so than the other”, that’s painting them with the same brush.

It’s like saying “someone with a billion dollars is more wealthy than someone with a million” - like yeah it’s semantically true but it completely disregards magnitude. Plenty of people make a million by working hard and paying taxes, but you only make a billion by fucking people over.

Lols ,

ignoring racism and transphobia or demanding others do so because its your team doing it is not protecting minorities, its actually just accepting racism and transphobia as the price of doing business, which is horrible

ignoring or defending exploitation of the poor because its your team doing it is not helping the poor, its actually just further ignoring, defending and normalising their exploitation

It’s like saying “someone with a billion dollars is more wealthy than someone with a million” - like yeah it’s semantically true but it completely disregards magnitude. Plenty of people make a million by working hard and paying taxes, but you only make a billion by fucking people over.

your comparison of ‘democrats actively pushing discriminative and explotative policies’ to ‘poor millionaires who got their millions by just working very hard and who arent hurting no one’ is hilariously tone deaf, thank you

traches ,

During the civil war, the north was still pretty fucking racist. In the 60s, people were routinely fired for being gay and same sex marriage was unthinkable.

Do you know what the Overton window is?

The millionaire thing was an example that apparently you missed the point of. Doctors, pilots, and other people in high-skill, well paying professions routinely clear a million in net worth on W2 income as honestly as you can in this country. The difference between a million dollars and a billion dollars is about a billion dollars. To say that billionaires and millionaires are both wealthy, but billionaires are just more wealthy, is semantically accurate but completely misrepresents the magnitude of difference between the two.

Lols ,

During the civil war, the north was still pretty fucking racist.

careful there, thats basically saying the south and north were just as bad

It’s not the fucking same.

you missed the word ‘more’

its right here in this sentence (ill make it bold and italicised for you, and put arrows around it which i will similarly bolden and italicise):

The republican party being -> more <- racist, transobobic, and capitalist doesn’t mean the democratic party isn’t.

the word ‘more’ in that sentence means they’re in fact not saying democrats and republicans are the same, theyre explicitly, literally and unambiguously saying democrats are not as bad

hope this helps

AngryCommieKender , (edited )

Then run. I am. Not because I wanted to, it wasn’t my idea. My neighbors keep telling me that I should. If I can take the seat away from the fascist that currently holds it, in the 2026 election, I’ll consider that the only real win I need.

Kirb00 ,

The DNC wouldn’t be in this mess if they didn’t play the women card in 2016 while screwing Bernie over. Now we’re stuck with two old men who’s out of touch with the younger generation of Americans.

qwertyWarlord ,

The problem is I don’t want Biden, I don’t like him but I have to vote for him because the alternative is worse

caveman8000 ,

America needs ranked voting so we can get out of this two party loser cycle

floofloof ,

And that’s exactly why the USA will never get ranked choice voting.

ReadFanon ,
@ReadFanon@lemmygrad.ml avatar

Does ranked voting in other countries undermine their two-party system though?

hglman ,

It does not, the only countries with meaningful 3rd parties are those with proportional electorial systems.

davi ,

I don’t like him but I have to vote for him because the alternative is worse

as you will be doing for the rest of your life; never voting for the candidates you like and you’ll never be given the chance because of democrats. meanwhile your political opposites will perpetually be getting the candidates that they do like and a plethora of choices.

agamemnonymous ,
@agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works avatar

How many moderate Republicans begrudgingly voted Trump in 2016?

Viking_Hippie ,

moderate Republicans

There’s no such thing anymore. Moderate conservatives are Democrats like Biden and the GOP is a literal fascist party now.

SlikPikker ,

No-one wants Biden but the electoral math makes it the better choice than Trump or implicit Trump (not voting).

I wouldn’t caucus for him, but if I was a US citizen I’d hold my nose and vote.

Viking_Hippie ,

By far the lesser evil but the lesser evil is still evil. Would be swell if there was a non-evil option just this once!

Toastypickle ,

As south park so eloquently put it, you’re either voting for a giant douche or a turd sandwich.

dangblingus ,

Ehh South Park is aggressively centrist. They “both sides” their arguments constantly and provide zero alternative progressive solutions. It’s become satire for satire’s sake.

AngryCommieKender ,

It was always satire for satire’s sake. South Park never tried to present solutions, they just excell at pointing out the absurdity of current events.

Tronn4 ,

Why or how the F is trump still even a candidate

Snipe_AT ,
@Snipe_AT@lemmy.atay.dev avatar

There’s no way he makes it as the actual candidate.

I’m a republican and I can say that I and plenty of others like me will be voting blue if that absolute disgrace becomes the primary candidate.

prole ,
@prole@sh.itjust.works avatar

Are you a billionaire tycoon? Just curious…

I’m having trouble coming up with any other reason why a person would voluntarily describe themselves as “republican” in 2023.

It’s not just Trump. The Republican party is rotten to the core. Maybe it’s time to reevaluate things.

SamboT ,

What a way to start a conversation. Try imagining the person on the other end of the computer and try again.

prole ,
@prole@sh.itjust.works avatar

I don’t follow…? I was just asking a question. Legitimately curious.

SamboT ,

You are legitimately curious to know if they are a billionaire tycoon?

If you have a question for a self-proclaimed republican then ask it. Don’t pretend to inquire with them for an opportunity to insult them. That’s not respectful.

imPastaSyndrome ,

Try imagining the person on the other end of the computer and try again.

yup

Dashi ,

I say this as a Democrat that used to be a republican. You think our side is all sunshine and rainbows? Neither side is perfect it really is the option of the least bad candidate and that is the issue. The two party system is a failure but it’s what we have.

Yes in my opinion the democrats are better than the Republicans but that doesn’t mean they are without fault. Everyone has an agenda and can make mistakes we are human after all.

prole ,
@prole@sh.itjust.works avatar

I didn’t really say anything about the Democratic party in my comment. Not sure why you brought them up. No whataboutism needed here.

Conservatives are continually voting against their interests when they vote R. Period. End statement.

the_post_of_tom_joad ,

Hmm, i think that the Democrat voters are as well. I knew exactly what i would get with Biden, hated him the most during the primaries, and yet, voted for him knowing he didn’t have my best interests at heart.

And this election i am expected to do that twice? Against that same convict? who tried and will try again to seize power forever?

I’ve held my nose long enough. I can’t breathe.

prole ,
@prole@sh.itjust.works avatar

Yeah, constantly having to fight off fascism is fucking exhausting.

It’s by design. Once the people become apathetic enough, or get “outrage fatigue”, that’s when fascism can slink in and wrap its filthy little tendrils around our political discourse.

It fucking sucks. I’m with you. I’m tired.

Snipe_AT ,
@Snipe_AT@lemmy.atay.dev avatar

I have thought about your comment for a little bit and would like to respond candidly.

I am just a regular person who has a differing belief about what constitutes a well-functioning government. There are possibly more views that we agree upon than disagree.

At this exact moment,(because everyone’s beliefs are constantly changing with new ideas and information), the views I expect we differ on are: capitalism has been more socially beneficial than destructive, we should have a smaller more efficient government, and we should prevent erosion of the constitutional right to bear firearms.

The views I expect that we agree on are: capitalism has not been properly regulated with regards to the environment (global warming was certainly caused by us), the ability to have an abortion should be codified in law, we should prevent the erosion of constitutional rights like free speech, privacy, and the ability to freely travel, while socialized healthcare will be very expensive and increase everyone’s tax burden, it will also be well worth the cost.

I am a republican because I believe that my political viewpoints align with those of republicans. But I am not blind to the charlatans that have disgraced not only the republican party but also the broader American institution. I take comfort in the fact that I did not vote for Trump in either instance, choosing instead to vote for Biden when that time came.

As for why I voluntarily “describe” myself as a republican because I genuinely believe that people discussing opposing views contributes to incrementally uncovering truth (which is often in the middle) and also serves to stave off the seemingly natural pull of humans to develop tribalism described by the phrase ‘us vs them.’

Hadriscus ,

Cut the middleman, just vote CPUSA already

AngryCommieKender ,

While I tend to agree with your sentiment, I would really prefer people followed Washington’s advice. No parties. He believed that partisan politics would be the downfall of the US, and given the last 239 years of evidence, I would have to agree.

Hadriscus ,

I didn’t know that. What would the US political landscape look like without parties ?

AngryCommieKender ,

No freaking clue. We promptly ignored him and became a two party system almost immediately after he left office.

dangblingus ,

Despite the fact that it’s a statistical likelihood that voting R is voting against your class, T is still far and away the most popular pick for R leadership.

the_post_of_tom_joad ,

Sorry Bernie. I love ya but i voted for biden as parting gift when i left the party in 2020. If the dems et al cannot/will not keep him from running themselves then they get no vote from me, since clearly governance is beyond them.

I ain’t telling anyone to do the same, but I’m done playing the Democrats game.

FluffyPotato ,

The US has like the worst election system and it needs to change but that change will not happen if fascists are in power. The only option you guys have is vote for the lesser of two evils and organize and gather support while they are in power. First step would be getting ranked voting passed locally in my opinion. The alternative is just being the ideologically purest in a death camp. And besides voting is pretty easy even in the US from what I heard.

the_post_of_tom_joad ,

I’m (baby steps) trying to organize around a party i believe in. I’m getting more active locally. With the DNC actively promoting the right wing nutjobs they are ostensibly fighting they lost my vote. I’ll vote in the primaries, and in the general, for a candidate that earned it.

StarServal ,
@StarServal@kbin.social avatar

I had this whole long post typed up but decided it all boiled down to this:

Fuck you. Give us better candidates. Populism is winning because you keep giving us disgusting ultimatums. Do better.

Bernie_Sandals ,

You know the Democratic Party isn’t a monolith right? It’s voters decide mostly who is in charge. If people want a candidate other than Biden they can vote for them in the primary.

Since no viable candidates have shown up, Biden is the best option for now

StarServal ,
@StarServal@kbin.social avatar

If they need to threaten voters with ultimatums, then they’re not doing good enough.

agamemnonymous ,
@agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works avatar

Cool, but we have FPTP elections, so the choice will always be the lesser evil of the two front runners. Of course a real alternative would be preferable, but until we have a fundamentally different voting paradigm, ultimatums are a mathematical certainty.

Wogi ,

They know that. They plan for it. They don’t want any actual liberals to run so the game is rigged against them from the start

Fuck them. They have absolutely no incentive to pass meaningful change and so the country will continue to swing further and further to the right, as bit by bit the conservatives sweep more of the government under their control.

The Democrats are contributing to the problem.

buddascrayon ,

It is true that the game is rigged. The DNC has a pretty good grip on its own primary process. That said, Bernie made pretty amazing headway into their ranks despite the rigging largely due to people actually engaging the process instead of sitting on their ass whining about how unfair the process it.

You don’t like how the system is being run, join any one of the many coalitions who’ve formed up to change it. Or start your own. And if you aren’t up do doing that much, then go the fuck to the poles and vote for who they choose because otherwise the GOP wins and takes over the god damned country in the name of racism, religious hegemony, and oligarchy.

Wogi ,

I’m a big fan of a different option

buddascrayon ,

Having a different opinion is fine, sitting there whining about how awful the Democratic party is well bemoaning the horrors that the Republican party is visiting upon our country and people while doing absolutely fucking nothing to help stop any of it is just pathetic.

Wogi ,

Option. Not opinion.

Throw all your weight behind the Democrats if you like, it will only delay an inevitable descent to the fascist religious hegemony the Republicans clearly want. The current state of the DNC is such that no meaningful legislation is possible, no leftward progress will happen.

The game is rigged against you. The ruling class like it that way. As long as you’re in the working class, if you’re playing by the rules they’ve set it for you, you’re playing to lose.

ReadFanon ,
@ReadFanon@lemmygrad.ml avatar

I’m sorry but the math on this doesn’t check out.

You’re saying that we must join coalitions whose intent is to change the system or we must vote for the Democratic nominee, otherwise we are supporting the GOP?

If not voting for the Democratic nominee is support for the GOP then how isn’t joining a coalition to undermine DNC power support for the GOP?

I don’t understand this logic.

AngryCommieKender ,

Oh they want liberals. Remember, liberals are just “moderates”, making them conservative-lite. The don’t want progressives. That’s why they buried Bernie

bonus_crab ,

it is a monolith though. Courts ruled after 2016 that the DNC can’t defraud voters or candidates because they aren’t required to have a fair primary. Their lawyers argued in court that they should be allowed to select a winner undemocratically, and won.

link

Natanael ,

That’s because the party isn’t a government institution, and candidates can run as independent (which does lower their chances, but the law don’t care about that part)

prole , (edited )
@prole@sh.itjust.works avatar

Not sure why this comment is downvoted, you’re not wrong. It might not be ideal, but it’s the truth

bloodfart ,

its because lemmy (and reddit) votes are just a “does this make you feel good” button.

AngryCommieKender ,

Then show up. You’d be better than what we’ve got. Lord knows that since 4 of my neighbors told me independently of each other that I should run for city council, I’m looking into running for city council, and I would be the first to tell you that I am not qualified, which seems to be exactly why they think I am qualified.

Bernie_Sandals ,

Already volunteering in local county politics to push my little slice of the democrats to be more radical, about a third of them already support Bernie in the rural south so I’d like to think it’s going well.

Will most likely run soonish but that’s a tall task down here.

AngryCommieKender ,

Good luck!

MoistMogwai ,

Not to mention, thanks to the electoral college there are only 5 to 8 states that actually get to decide who is President. My current State has voted for a Republican every year since 1964. I would have had to have been born in 1943 to have a fraction of my vote count nationally. I still vote, but I live in a State where I might as well write in someone I believe in for President. If Biden wins, that’s better than Trump, but it’s still so bad. As my body is breaking down at a job that doesn’t pay for a house I can’t afford, asking us to wait 4 years for someone better is insulting.

AngryCommieKender ,

Agreed, but with one caveat. You are the better candidate. Stop waiting for someone else to take the job, they all have imposter syndrome too, so fucking go for it and keep the fascists out at the local levels, not just the federal.

I am putting my money where my mouth is and self funding my campaign for city council in 2026.

StarServal ,
@StarServal@kbin.social avatar

I am absolutely not the better candidate. I’m not leadership material at all, and I’m probably as bad as Trump at receiving criticism. The difference is that I recognize my flaws.

the_post_of_tom_joad ,

You don’t want the job because of the incredible weight of responsibility? You have the ability to recognize your weaknesses? Shit man that’s better than I’ve seen in all my voting years. Im for StarServal in 2024

VolatileExhaustPipe ,

Who is your power base, who is your voting base and who does the organizing and networking for you?

AngryCommieKender ,

In my case it’s my neighbors. They’re the ones that thought I should run in the first place, and I already know more than half the district.

VolatileExhaustPipe ,

Definitely a start, but - depending on how many votes you need - politically a bit blurry. Wish you luck.

Do you know Jineology or Bookchin?

AngryCommieKender ,

Haven’t heard of those, but I’ll take a look.

nte ,

Why don’t you do better, democracy is not “them up there”, it needs everyone. You are as responsible as any one else. You know better, why aren’t you in the ballot?

gowan ,
@gowan@reddthat.com avatar

Populism is winning because we keep ignoring the working class and any state that is not on the coast or is IL.

randon31415 ,

The left people want won’t win the presidency until they at least win a governorship or a senate seat. The last time we had a radical departure from those that came before them in the white house (politically speaking, not skin color) we had a 4 year long Civil War backlash.

AS004 ,

The last time we had a radical departure from those that came before them in the white house (politically speaking, not skin color) we had a 4 year long Civil War backlash.

Are we ignoring the New Deal Dems or what, now? They were a major departure from everybody else before and Roosevelt even threatened to pack the Court when they tried to rule some of his policies unconstitutional.

randon31415 ,

Well, there was a war involved with that as well, but I would argue that the New Deal was a compromise moderate position to the alternative of complete communist revolt, which was starting to sweep the globe at the time.

seiryth ,

Could the democrats put someone under the age of 60 in place?

Trump is fucking awful. Republicans in general are awful and will set back that country another 20 years.

But Jesus, is an 80+ old guy the best the democrats have? He’s qualified, intelligent and experienced. But he’s also in an age bracket that’s easy to hang shit on, which is exactly what the Republicans need.

sentient_loom ,
@sentient_loom@sh.itjust.works avatar

At least under 70

prole ,
@prole@sh.itjust.works avatar

Could the democrats put someone under the age of 60 in place?

Can you wait 4 years while we narrowly avoid literal fascism? Jesus fucking Christ… We have the incumbent advantage, it would be foolish to give that up considering the clear and present danger that the alternative presents.

Biden wins a second term, and the Dems will have 4 years to choose a younger candidate to run next time.That is when we need to fight to make sure we don’t end up with another 80 year old, or with someone like Kamala Harris as our next choice.

SnowBunting ,

Agreed 💯

PixelatedSaturn ,

Yes, but Biden, he is a liability. I don’t believe any of those idiot stories about dementia or anything, but he is old. Campaigns are really demanding even for non geriatrics. If he slips too much and he will slip a lot, because that is what he was known for even in his best years, this could mean Trump. Having Trump again would be a disaster.

prole , (edited )
@prole@sh.itjust.works avatar

And what kind of optics do you think there’d be if the Democratic party pulled their incumbent candidate, and then what? Run Kamala Harris? No, not her?

So they pull both the incumbent candidate, and his (not super old) running mate? And replace them with whom?

You might not personally think that those actions are signs on weakness and/or disunity within the party, but people largely do. People have entire careers surrounding shaping those optics. This is important shit.

Maybe if there was already a young Democrat/progressive that the party and base has been coalescing around to be Biden’s successor. Right now, we have nobody.

PixelatedSaturn ,

The train has passed for that of course. Unless something happens to Biden in which case … they will have to do exactly that: find someone. What are the optics that the whole party has no one else, but a really old man anyway?

Before Biden announced it would be possible to get someone else.

the_post_of_tom_joad ,

8 years of Biden then 8 years of someone like Kamala Harris? This is the future were hoping for? Pardon me but that sounds horrifying.

I mean it is probably the long term plan of the dnc, along with another fascist bugaboo they ratfuck into the general election.

Here’s how i think it will go, based on the last few elections: If Trump is no longer a threat they’ll elevate desantis or someone similar and they’ll again ask us to “fight fascism” and “fight for democracy” by swallowing any desire to vote 3rd party and side with them, the “lesser of 2 evils”, once more.

If they succeed, they sit on their hands and continue their disastrous platform of “standing by the door and aggressively hand wringing” at the fascists while they march through.

This is the only thing they will ever do while they are one of only 2 (fully corrupted) political parties.

To think otherwise is to ignore recent history

rez_doggie ,

Acab yeah that means harris

ZeroEcks ,

Didn’t they just wait 4 years already? How many times do they have to wait 4 years?

prole ,
@prole@sh.itjust.works avatar

Yeah we had 4 years to come up with a better candidate, and we didn’t.

Totuustorvi ,

Can someone put into words why it seems impossible to find/nominate a proper (democrat) candidate out of the whole USA population?

Ever since Obama and maybe even before, it has been so difficult. What stops the good people from advancing.

hydrospanner ,

What stops the good people from advancing.

Democracy is, at its core, a popularity contest.

It’s a lot easier and more effective to be popular with deception and favors than by responsibility and moral fiber.

Therefore the only politicians who are able to succeed to the point that they get to the national level are those who have learned how the game works and play it with a combination of deceit and favors.

I’m not saying democracy is bad…in fact, of the various systems it competes with, it’s one of the best…but that doesn’t mean it’s flawless, and this is one of its many flaws.

VolatileExhaustPipe ,

Why are democratic countries that aren’t the USA manage to generate a wide set of qualified candidates which aren’t close to death (both Trump, Biden, Clinton, Sanders, Reagan, Bush)?

hydrospanner ,

First, my comment made no mention of age, only compromised morals.

To answer your question, though, I feel it’s a combination of population size, demographics, scale of representation, and the nature of the way the respective systems have evolved (both naturally and intentionally)

  • Population: The US has lots and lots of people spread out over a wide area. Lots of people mean that there’s lots of qualified people, and it follows that the older you get, the more time you’ve spent in this arena, therefore the more experience and connections you have.
  • Demographics: Simply put, Baby Boomers. There’s more of them than there are of anyone else, and they tend to elect their own.
  • Scale of Representation: US elected officials at the national level represent a huge number of constituents. This means that getting elected is more about appealing to a broad spectrum of voters, to the point that it’s often more about just being objectionable to the fewest voters. This is Joe Biden’s greatest strength: nobody really really likes the guy, but he’s someone that (among his base) not too many people actually dislike, or at least not enough to withhold their vote. It’s boring but effective within the situation, like trap hockey. Representation of such a wide and diverse group of people means that politicians won’t champion any agenda that might put off voters. A vote is a vote regardless of whether it’s lukewarm or zealous, and a thousand “meh” votes are drastically more valuable than a hundred fanatical votes.
  • The Nature of the Beast: like it or not, America has a two party, first past the post, winner take all system. This means that the game is very closed-ended, full of binary/Boolean strategy: A or B, vote or don’t vote, win the state completely or don’t win it at all. This ties in with the previous point and makes a campaign and election even more about being as inoffensive as possible.

So for a winner take all, nationwide race like president, the way the Xs and Os work out is that your party’s best odds come with someone who’s got lots of connections, is widely recognized, and whom the fewest people in your base will dislike enough to not vote for them. In the vast majority of cases, that means an old candidate who’s had decades of experience and network building, who has no controversial positions, odd personality quirks, etc., and who is just a hair more likeable to moderates than whomever the other party puts out there.

The only time in recent history this hasn’t been the case was 2016, in which Trump pulled more votes out of his base and the far right than anyone gave him credit for…and maybe 2000, although a decent argument could be made there that Clinton’s stigma hobbled Gore’s campaign just enough. With SCOTUS help.

Thus, you get usually old (experienced, well known), usually male, usually white, usually straight, usually at least vaguely religious, usually rather boring candidates.

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