What happens if you don't have sex for over a year? (We need better solutions) ( kbin.social )

hotpotato138 , 11 months ago

I agree that involuntary celibacy can cause mental issues. Sometimes involuntary celibacy is caused by mental issues.

Drusas , 11 months ago

Your title has so little to do with your diatribe. You're not asking what happens; you're blaming society for getting sex being difficult. These are different things.

The way you use quotation marks around things like "safety"--which is a very legitimate concern for women--suggests that you are in fact part of that problem demographic who does not respect that dating is more dangerous for women than it is for men, unfortunate though that fact may be. It's attitudes like these that you are expressing which make women feel uncomfortable and endangered because they see that their very real concerns are being dismissed out of hand.

Let's not turn this into another red pill type of place.

Mshuser OP , 11 months ago

The title is not me asking anything, it's a title of the video I linked to. Caitlyn V is the one who came up with it, not me.

Of course safety is a very legitimate concern, but it's been something that's been used to justify very distant behaviour and misandric treatment of men, especially when you look at statistics where it's only a very few men (who are repeat offenders btw) that are out there committing them (both reported and unreported incidents), yet people use these statistics to act as if a large majority of men are out there committing crimes which isn't true. There are situations where safety does apply, but when it's used to act as if every man is a potential offender in every normal interaction, that's when it becomes a problem.

For example, if a man were to come up to you and say hi, express interest or compliment you (in any context that isn't an isolated alleyway mind you), and your first instinct is to be distant from him, treat him as if all he wants is sex, or might murder or rape you in an initial meet, then that is overboard. Crime stats from nisvs and bjs shows they happen roughly 10% of the time in most incidents. The high likelihood of sex crimes happening is with someone they are familiar with. Still not large enough to treat as if every friend or romantic interest out there is gonna do it when you factor in the general male population.

Also, men make up majority of homicide victims even at the hands of other men, but even when we're talking about gendered violence in intimate settings, the rates of gender violence from female to male isn't that far apart from male to female yet that never gets talked about at all. Then there's also false allegations which are common enough yet it's still not legally recognized as a crime. Not enough men come out to share their stories due to public ridicule and even being seen as the bad guy, nor are men's issues being taken seriously by academia to be given a deeper look apart from government stats. Safety goes both ways my guy. But even with stats like this, you have to be careful not to apply this to all men and women (when you actually factor in the total male & female population, you find the number of offenders out there in a general context is less than 1% for both genders). Just because most crime offenders are men doesn't mean most men are out here committing crimes. I will link this post for you to see.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CrQRpqUtbDz/

If you're talking about just talking to her, expressing interest, flirting, getting her contact information etc especially in public social environments, you're less likely to get assaulted in there. I'd go as far as to say that women have met men when they cold approach them when it was still a thing years ago and their relationships are just fine. What safety measures can you take here? Well if you're talking to a man at a bar, don't let him buy you a drink to avoid having it drugged, which doesn't mean you're not interested as you're still there talking to him. Likewise, if you meet a man on a street, keep your interactions in public and never engage him if there's a considerable distance between you and the public so your cries for help will be heard in case he tries something (tho meeting someone on the street is not something I would advice as safety concerns are pretty high here). Or if you fear he won't take rejection well, just give him a number even a fake one and gtfo of there. Or you just don't wanna talk to him or deal with another guy. You don't have to engage him at all if all you want to do is cut it short and leave, completely understandable. In all these interactions, make sure you have an open exit if you want out.

Going on a date with him? Inform your friends and keep your dates in the eye of public and exert your boundaries in case he wants to take you private. Afriad he might rape you when you guys get intimate? Set a recorder to record the interaction, let your friends know. In both cases where things get bad, pepper spray or attacking him in the genital area. Of course all of these are suggestion and the women themselves know these situations well enough to prepare for them. My point is you can engage openly with men while at the same time keeping your safety in mind.

Point is you can factor what could happen in these situations where you could be harmed in anyway, then come up with solutions to help counter them, but at the same time not need to fear of every man and live in perpetual fear of them constantly.

Adlantor , 11 months ago

“Sure safety is important, but what about my feelings?” “Make sure to give your friends your murderers description” “A man, who can be the same size and mass as you, but will statistically will be stronger than you, tries to take you somewhere private? Simply tell them no” “Worried you’ll be raped? Simply record it.” I acknowledge these are not literally the words that you said, but I want you to know, as a fellow man, reading what you said gave me this impression. You’re coming at this issue way too combatively. I get that we’re all horny and that sex is good and fun and we like to have it, and you’re not gonna calm down when I tell you to calm down but you need to chill about it a little bit. Or don’t you’re a person who can make your own decisions.
Added after: Also stalking exists and police usually don’t do anything until it’s too late

Mshuser OP , 11 months ago

What would be your suggestion for being less combative? I have a tendency to over-explain my position so the context doesn't get misconstrued but perhaps there's a better way of having a discussion.

It's not just about the sex though, it's about being treated as less than human due to an over-heightened fear of men. I referenced her video to mostly address the last point and how what I've said would lead to this. I don't care if a woman is not down to have sex with me that's her choice.

Stalking does exist. I didn't include as it's not part of the normal social context I was painting earlier. Stalking happens when someone who you don't know or have little familiarity with is following you, so there's no way to include it nor excuse it. And then there's stalking from someone who you've known before but now is a stranger to you which is a much more difficult situation to deal with.

I specified those situations because A) these are the types of situations where potential predators are likely to take advantage and B) I've also acknowledge many of these are just suggestions from me as a man. These are also suggestions mentioned by women I have spoken with. Are they perfect? No. Do we need better solutions? Absolutely, we do. I also understand that these are very difficult situations to deal with, which is why even the suggestions I'm giving aren't always bullet-proof when they do happen (and same goes for men who experience false allegations or abuse as well, you can record it and back it up, doesn't mean it's not a difficult situation to be in), but it doesn't justify the fear of almost every guy out there which I have seen time and time again. I could've done a better job of not making dealing with those situations sound easy peasy while making my point.

Adlantor , 11 months ago

So I went back and reread all the stuff that you wrote, and I guess maybe combative isn’t the right word, maybe a little callous? It just feels like you’re being very dismissive of very real potential trauma. I’ve seen how it just kind of destroys any hope for any normal future relationship in a person. So I personally don’t think it’s wild for women to want to protect themselves even if that means it is harder to date.
I don’t know if this whole situation is something someone can individually solve, more of a societal push for things like reducing rape kit backlogs, improving statistics for women killed by an intimate partners and pregnant women killed by partners, and as you say the smaller percentage of rapists and murderers, serial or otherwise. I think if we could take a lot of the fear out of the interactions things would go better, but there’s not a lot of trust that if something goes bad, police will help in really any way, you’re kind of on your own you know? So it’s safer to be cautious, especially on the first meet.
I think a lot of your original post has some decent dating advice, if a little patronizing, I would point a teenager at it as decent advice, and would definitely emphasize shared hobbies. Hobbies are great for meeting new friends.
It occurs to me that a lot of my argument is America centric. And assuming you are also America centric and that might not be the case so I think it’s fair to call his whole thing a side discussion.
As to the your original question, I have zero problem with sex work even though it’s not currently legal where I am. I believe it is better to legalize and regulate sex work. And I don’t think it’s wrong for people to employ some sexual services, even regularly. There are people who can’t or won’t date or marry and they should still have the opportunity to have sex. I’m pretty sure it’s in Denmark they actually give handicap people a stipend for it because just because you’re in a wheelchair doesn’t mean you don’t want to have sex.

Mshuser OP , 11 months ago

It does feel like it sometimes. But that too is also something that men deal with as well, especially when feminist have dismissed our fears of false allegations using the 2% conviction, even though that too causes very serious trauma. I've even seen counter articles saying they got nothing to worry about, but 2% only represent cases that have been resolved, not the reported yet unresolved cases nor does is count the unreported incidents. By this logic, should men start treating women the way women have been treating men? Should men start viewing every woman as a potential liar who's out to accuse him of rape and SA? There's a reason men are going mgtow and avoiding interaction with women altogether. This is also something I don't agree with as it's just going to heighten the fear of a demographic.

Having statistics of victims killed in IPV would certainly be very valuable information (tho I think that would be classified under severe abuse, maybe that category needs to be broken down).

A societal push we need to establish is to actively send a message to society not to conform men to the male gender role. We've done a lot for women not to be confined in their own gender role, but then we just think "well if women aren't confined to their gender role then obviously men aren't as well" but there's a larger focus on the former than the latter, causing male stereotype to be strong even in the modern age. This is very important as because men trying to fulfill their gender role are likely the ones to go out approaching women on the street and trying their luck. I remember watching a street harassment video where a man explains why he does it, which was along the lines of showing her he's the man, that you gotta show her persistence, etc. This kind of thinking is not inate to any man. They're being taught by PUA/TRP that they need to do these things to reach the pinaccle of masculinity. But keep in mind PUA/TRP is rising cuz we as a society have never actively fought for men to step away from their gender roles, we just left them on their own to "they should figure out that also applies to them". This premise doesn't cover the more serious crimes such as murder, rape or SA I think in those cases serious mental issues are involved. But if we're talking about a woman's day to day experience with dealing with men coming up to her, then this is caused by society still telling men they gotta fulfill their gender role, thus creating a self-fulfilling prophecy.

And a note about police. I think everyone has to remember is that police are a 3rd party. They need to collect all information first before they could do anything. Unfortunately, we humans have a natural tendency to get spooked during very stressful events that we can forget to document it and ensure the perpetrator gets bought to the police. Add in the fact that criminals are smart enough to cover their tracks to not get caught, and you can see why bringing perps to the police is hard. A lack of concrete information usually makes their job harder. Sure we can go to the police and report the incident, but for them to actually pursue the case further, you'd have to be able to capture not only the perpetrator appearance and information, but also where they escaped to and if they dropped a trail.

What about my advice bit is patronizing?

Adlantor , 11 months ago

I don’t mean it’s morally correct, but practically, I don’t think it’s bad advice to tell people to be worried about false accusations, and that they should probably only sleep with people that they trust. I am a big “only date friends” person, but I acknowledge that that’s a minority view, and that strangers date all the time and it works out.
I’m saying those statistics already exist and they’re pretty grim. At least in the US those statistics are put out by the DOJ, I just wasn’t able to find one recently enough that I’d want to cite it(I don’t think it doesn’t exist, I think it’s user error lol)
I agree with everything you said about not conforming to gender roles. I think we really should start approaching interactions, thinking “this is a human, this is a person” and moving away from the binaries. Ya know, egalitarianism.
As for the police (at least in America I honestly think that if we fired all police unions and completely rehired new people, it would help a lot of things but that’s probably a different discussion), they probably need to employ more psychologist and specialists, because police already don’t do a great job with existing sexual assault cases so having someone who is able to suss out whether someone’s lying, without being an insensitive jerk to a victim would be good. The way I see it there is a bit of a cycle where police do a bad job or worse, are dismissive. Therefore, the perpetrator isn’t caught and punished. Therefore, there are more bad apples out there, repeat offenders, etc., and statistics go up and trust goes down.
So I as for my charge of mild condescension; the impression I got was “you need advice, so here’s advice” and not “do you need advice? If so, here’s advice”. You acknowledge later in the OP that not everyone reading it will need the advice, and I just think with some changes you wouldn’t’ve had to make that clarification, and it would’ve come off less strong. Maybe if the advice stuff was its own thread instead of mixed in here, I would feel different I think? Also, putting feminism in scare quotes isn’t great because the people who usually do that are the people who are mostly in it for hating women so people sort of will just lump you together with them because the human brain is lazy and it likes simple categories so it doesn’t have to think hard.
Overall, you seem like a solid dude who genuinely wants to have a discussion on this. I think I’m used to much more toxic spaces on this and so I probably pushed back too hard, so you shouldn’t let me get you down

Mshuser OP , 11 months ago

The DOJ also puts out BJS when it comes to crime statistics. I did find a 2022 study that's female victim specific showing they were more likely to be killed by an intimate partner in 2021, but the incidents are very small when you compare the number of female victims reported on an ncvs study of that same year. The number of female victims in NCVS is approx 4 mil, intimate partner violence incidents were 400k (this number includes both male and female victims), but the female specific study had 4k female victims of ipv related homicide. So they exist.

I think using a psychologist and specialist would be a great idea in this case. Though how credible do you think it is? Cuz we're mostly going based off of a psychologist and specialist evaluation rather than concrete evidence. Or maybe psychology has an evaluation process of its own for it to be as credible as concrete evidence idk much about that bit honestly. But it is a good idea considering most SA incidents are usually done by someone known to the victim.

Can you point out where I put scare quotes on feminism? There's a lot of conflation with criticizing feminism with criticizing women which isn't the case. Feminism is an ideology which you can criticize, doesn't conflate with criticizing women. People already lump anyone who criticizes feminism as misogynist cus they buy into the idea that feminism is about equality, but it also promotes female empowerment which touches on the female identity, of course most people especially women are gonna identify with it (the same way men identify with the redpill movement as it promotes male empowerment). Redpill is already being criticized as a misogynistic hate group as it should be, but nobody questions the feminist ideology cuz most of them will push back hard against anyone who questions it, which is why this sub exists. The OG feminists came up with the patriarchy theory, modified the definition of toxic masculinty to make it correlate with general male behaviour. When you put those together, questioning that is almost always gonna make people think you're a misogynist. Once I actually questioned the patriarchy theory and did my own research, I found out it largely never even existed yet people believe we live in it. Same thing with the feminist ideology. The feminist ideology when it started wasn't egalitarian at all, it was actually very misandrist in the way it talked about men.

RandoCalrandian , 11 months ago

Your argument would make more sense if men weren’t dealing with all that defensive bullshit and being shit on for being single and not in some way giving their resources to a woman

Oh and if it wasn’t illegal for them to pay for sex

Oh and if they didn’t hear “where are all the good men” on every dating site

Oh and if men weren’t statistically provably in more danger at all times women complain to be (you didn’t provide sources either, when you gave them a pass for treating all men like shit out of their own delusional fears)

So, if it weren’t for a little thing called reality, you’d have an excellent point!

dil , 11 months ago

First of all, I really appreciate the discussion here - I'm a recent reddit transplant and "what would be your suggestion for being less combative?" was such a breath of fresh air.

Frankly, women are right to be afraid of us, and if you understand and accept why then women will like you more.

EVERY woman has had MANY bad experiences with men, because some guys are shitty. Most things don't rise to the level of being a crime:

• guy gets mad at your for rejecting him
• another follows you around in a store staring
• someone grabs your butt at a concert and laughs at you if you say something

On and on, since before girls hit puberty. Being a woman requires picking your battles. If you reject the wrong guy they might go apeshit, so you say "I have a boyfriend." Don't compliment a guy, because some asshole yelled at you for "leading him on." I appreciate that you've talked to women about this - ask them about times guys have been creepy.

Now, it obviously feels bad to be treated as a threat, even though it's not personal. Don't fall into the trap of blaming women - they don't want to be afraid of men, they were taught to be. Shitty men taught them, and they're to blame.

As men, we need to hold each other to higher standards. We also need to empathize with women - be mad WITH them, not AT them.

Mshuser OP , 11 months ago

I heard their experiences before and I don't think it's unreasonable for them to act this way. I do think there's a vicious cycle at play that's making it happen. We've done a lot to free women from their traditional role, but we didn't do the same for men. Instead, we just said "oh since we freed women from their oppressive role, then it should obviously apply to men as well" not realizing that they had strong advocacy for the former but not the latter, which lead to society still having men conform to their expected gender role in the modern times.

We tell guys to be sensible and not bother them randomly, yet we also tell them that if they like a girl, they need to tell her. They're taught that if they don't do something, another guy will and he'd lost out on his chance. We set up dynamics where guys are told (either by society's words or actions) that if he doesn't take action and make the approach, then he won't get a date, laid, or a relationship. So they feel the pressure to take action. Because they feel this pressure, and mainstream society has just given them passive advice, they turn to alternative communities which will give them the practicality. That being the PUA/TRP. So they get practible dating tips, but also getting a lot of toxic ideology about women as well. It also doesn't help that there are some women out there referring to other guys saying "They're good with women" (I hate this phrase a lot actually) so hearing those words only reaffirms his perceived failures as a mate.

Because of what they're taught by PUA/TRP, they react poorly to simple rejections from women due to society telling them that their value is tied to how successful they are sexually. "She rejected you because she saw you as low value" "She likes a confident masculine man, not a weak feminine beta" "You're a nice guy, any woman would be lucky enough to have you" "She rejected you, you need rizz bro" "You're too nice and she didn't feel that confidence from you, you need to be more aggressive". It also doesn't help when these messages get reinforced when they see other guys who are genuinely confident and masculine at their core with a woman who enthusiastically enjoys his company. They are gonna associated this experience with the ideology they've been taught.

Guy gets mad a you for rejecting him? He interprets this as her saying he's not alpha or valuable enough for her (Thanks Redpill). Following her to a store is very reprehensible, but I'd also say it links back to the expectations as well. Someone grabs your butt at a concert? Maybe that guy thinks that's how you be an alpha and show her you're a 'sexual being' so she doesn't see you as a platonic friend. This doesn't excuse the guys behaviour, many of them are very reprehensible.

This isn't new. PUA/TRP likely doesn't exist in third-world countries, but gender roles are very much active there, and I do hear stories of guys attacking women over rejecting them.

Nobody is blaming women for the expectations, they weren't the ones who set it up. Maybe some women helped set it up, just like men did. But I think as long as we as a society don't actively fight to free men from the role of the pursuer, they're gonna feel the pressure to take action, and it'll result in more women being uncomfortable with guys approaching them, not being able to take rejection well.

Now you are right that most of the things you've listed don't rise to crimes. But there are a lot of women who have said they're afriad of men due to not wanting to be raped and murdered, which while that fear is very valid, it isn't statistically common as I mentioned in the previous replies, which never meant you can't exercise caution. However, with the situations you've laid out, they're very common for women to experience them and it doesn't need to rise to a level of a crime, which doesn't make it any less uncomfortable for them anyways.

This explanation isn't me trying to excuse these guys behaviour. Because they've learned it, they need to unlearn these behaviours to ensure we make women feel safe, I am all for that. But we also have to remember guys were put in a position where they feel they have to learn and do this stuff, so to ensure we don't have a large number of guys going up to make women feel uncomfortable (which still happens), we need to start telling society not to conform men to these roles and not make them feel pressured to be the pursuer all the time, tying his success to that, and finding self-worth through other means. And after we've reached a place where women and men are free from their gender role, come up with rules for a more safer courtship, allowing men and women to take initiative with the people they're interested in.

P.S I had a much more thought out reply before the redirection delete my entire message, so if this one comes off differently here, I do apologize. I was trying to remember things I've written out that time before it got deleted.

Mshuser OP , 11 months ago

As for the guy thinking woman is 'leading him on'. Guys don't get compliments since they're expected to go up to her than the other way around. So when they do get a compliment from women, those emotions can be intense. So when he finds out she never meant anything more than that, it flips his world. Though in this case he could learn to manage his emotions so he can receive compliments well.

dil , 11 months ago

I almost lost my message too haha. Thanks for typing it out again! I agree that guys aren't usually doing these things with the goal of making girls uncomfortable, and also agree that their intentions don't excuse the behavior.

I had the misfortune of needing to learn about abusive relationships (my friend was in one), and the book "Why Does He Do That?" was very eye opening for me. It breaks down the mentality of abusive men, with the main punchline being that abusive men have a worldview where they place impossible expectations on their partner. They're told "you'll get a beautiful wife who will take care of your every need" and build an imaginary picture of what their wife will do, then when they date an actual human that obviously doesn't match their imagined ideal, they get mad at her.

I'm not abusive, but after reading the book I was much more focused of why I was feeling upset, and often it was some version of an impossible expectations that I had put on her, e.g. she should have known that I needed a hug right then (even though I didn't tell her).

I bring that up because I have a pet theory on why so many men feel lost and turn to PUA/TRP, and it's that they're operating under an out of date worldview that creates unrealistic expectations. Ultimately, it comes down to what you said: society has not told us how to be good men.

Here's my practical advice:

1. Learn about women. Learn what women think is the problem with men and with society. Listen to female comedians. Learn about feminism. Talk to your female friends. Watch this playlist: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJA_jUddXvY7EjlefWLnxCzLbBHU4Dz6R
2. Get a hobby that doesn't involve a screen. Woodworking. Gardening. Get an aquarium. Go backpacking. Learn to ride a unicycle. Try a few out. Do NOT pick something that you think women will think is cool, they are attracted to YOU thinking it's cool.
3. Go to therapy. You will develop self awareness and become a better partner.
4. Don't watch porn. It fucks up your brain.
5. Set a time period of at least two months where you will not date and will not think about dating. Dedicate the time to improving yourself.

Mshuser OP , 11 months ago

"They're operating under a worldview that's outdated an unrealistic" buddy is this really the takeaway?? It's not outdated if that expectation is still there. Also you brought up abusive men. Men don't need to go out approaching women and then become abusive from that. It's about gaining and maintaining control, which wasn't what I was talking about. I'm sorry to hear what happened to your friend tho.

"Society has not told us how to be good men" are u fking kidding me?? Society been telling us how to be "good men" and men are still going to PUA/TRP. This isn't about society encouraging bad behaviour in men, theyre not out here doing that. it's about putting gendered expectations on them in modern times and leaving them in the dust to figure shit out on their own. I'm saying we need to be teaching Society not to do that so men dont feel the pressure and have their self worth tied to sexual success like society makes it out to be. How in the world did you get my words mixed up?

As for the general tips you've laid out I got no problem with them except "learn about feminism" I did and I find out it wasn't about equality between men and women, but female superiority under the disguise of equality. No way in hell I'm supporting that misandrist ideology.

dil , 11 months ago

Yes, I think that is the takeaway, but I don't think I was clear about which parts were outdated. I agree that there's an expectation that guys make the first move. This isn't inherently problematic, until (like you said) getting rejected is taken as a commentary on your value as an individual.

we need to start telling society not to conform men to these roles and not make them feel pressured to be the pursuer all the time, tying his success to that, and finding self-worth through other means.

The main problem is the last two - that your value isn't defined by your success with women. THAT'S the worldview that needs to change, though I make no claim as to what society's telling men in this regard. Obviously a PUA is going to tell you the opposite, since they're selling you something. It's the same thing as a makeup company telling women they're ugly - it's good for business.

Re: society teaching us to be good men, I think we're actually saying the same thing. Society absolutely tells us something, but I argue that the image of a "good man" in movies/culture is NOT actually a good man. The Hallmark stereotype of the guy continuing to pursue a woman after she's rejected him (and then eventually getting her) is NOT a good man. Being aggressive is NOT being a good man.

Being a good man is being yourself, even if there is pressure to not be. Being a good man is looking out for others. Being a good man is working to make yourself better. Being a good man is knowing that you have value because YOU think so.

Being a good man is hard. It's letting go of all the rules that you've learned. It's accepting that you have flaws, and working on them. It's having empathy for those around you, men and women.

A good man walks up to the bar and orders a cosmo, cause he likes it. A good man approaches a woman and is ok with either answer because his self worth isn't on the line.

PUA/TRP are an easy answer because they are working within society's toxic worldview that we want to change. "Be more confident/aggressive if you want to get women" isn't addressing the core belief: you need to have success with women to have value. That is a lie. If you believe that, you will not have success with women, because YOU believe you need them to have value.

Mshuser OP , 11 months ago

The main problem is the last two - that your value isn't defined by your success with women. THAT'S the worldview that needs to change, though I make no claim as to what society's telling men in this regard. Obviously a PUA is going to tell you the opposite, since they're selling you something. It's the same thing as a makeup company telling women they're ugly - it's good for business.

Hold up. Why don't you see the first one as one of the problems?

The Hallmark stereotype of the guy continuing to pursue a woman after she's rejected him (and then eventually getting her) is NOT a good man. Being aggressive is NOT being a good man.

We're not talking about media tho. The examples you're talking about have largely been in the 80s media. Today's media is nothing like this as it mostly portrays starting out as friends and hoping for something more to just happen between the characters. This is a very passive approach and not at all productive.

Many of your elaborations on what a "good man" is are just tips on how to live life authentically. What we consider "good" is heavily subjective. What you consider is good, someone else might consider standards apart from yours to be good. So just call these tips for what it really is, living authentically.

PUA/TRP are an easy answer because they are working within society's toxic worldview that we want to change.

I gotta break this down. Society as it stands doesn't share the viewpoint that men have to be aggressive, macho, at least not on the surface. Only PUA/TRP are teaching them that. Mainstream society tells them to just have confidence, to not bother them and leave them alone, just be friends with them, but they also expect men to be the initiators in talking to women at the same time. They assume them to just know how to deal with women which is a very unrealistic expectation to have of men and boys. PUA/TRP doesn't work because it works with society's 'toxic worldview' (as mainstream society views dating and relationships as something that just happens by luck), it works because it offers practicality that the mainstream failed to provide. Tips that they can use now and see results early on. That is the appeal and why it's rising.

Society says that "you don't need to conform yourself to gender roles" and by actions they show women don't need to, but by those same actions, they show men need to. And how do they do this? There's an over-emphasis on telling men to leave them alone and never bother them or they risk being a creep or making her feel uncomfortable. Society also says that "women can also make the first move" but let's be real here. Over 90% of women don't make the first move, and even when they do, their first move is sending out subtle signals which are hard to pick up, and then some of them wonder why those guys they tried 'hitting on' don't like them. They'd have to go up to a guy and say "Hey, I like you and wanna go out with you" just for them to get the message.

dil , 11 months ago

Expecting men to initiate isn't ideal, but it's not the primary expectation that's hurting men. Men are hurt when their perceived value and self worth are tied to their success with women.

I'd compare men's expectation to initiate to women being expected to wear bikinis - it can make them uncomfortable to be on display, and ideally there wouldn't be pressure for them to do that, but it's really not the main problem that they face.

We're not talking about media tho

I don't think a discussion of what "society" expects can happen without discussing media - it shapes our culture.

Many of your elaborations on what a "good man" is are just tips on how to live life authentically

Do you think good men shouldn't live authentically? I'd assume most people would think good men live life authentically.

Mainstream society tells them to just have confidence, to not bother them and leave them alone, just be friends with them, but they also expect men to be the initiators in talking to women at the same time.

I think when either of us use broad terms like "mainstream society", "PUA/TRP", "feminism", etc, we're talking about different things - not because either of us is wrong, just because they have fuzzy borders. I think we can agree on the different things men are "sold" and how many of them feel contradictory:

• Don't bother women vs if you're interested you need to initiate
• "Men are the problem" vs "he's good with women"
• Women can make the first move vs they often don't (or it's too subtle)

Like you said, these are usually pieces of practical advice, and different things try to "pitch" you on different views - ultimately it's up to us to decide what we believe.

For me, the way that makes most sense to do that is to keep asking why.

Why shouldn't you bother women? Because it makes them uncomfortable.
Why does it make them uncomfortable? Because they've had bad experiences in the past.
Why have they had bad experiences? Because some men act like assholes when they get rejected.
Why do some men act like assholes? Because getting rejects feels like being told they're a failure.
Why is that? Because they believe their success is tied to their success with women.\

Why should you make the first move? Because for better or worse, that's the social contract right now.
Why is that the social contract? Men have been cast as pursuers and women pursued.
Why? Answers vary, but it ultimately doesn't matter since you're not gonna be able to change it by yourself.

So, with that in mind, how can you deal with the reality that you'll often need to initiate if you're interested?

You can't change the fact that she's had bad experiences in the past, so your primary goal in your approach is to make her comfortable. She's worried you're one of the guys who gets mad if they get rejected, how can you show that you aren't? Know your shit. "Hey, have you gotten yelled at for turning down a guy yet tonight? I can try to muster something up for you if you want." If they're not interested - that's OK. Be nice, accept a no, and move on.

Mshuser OP , 11 months ago (edited 11 months ago)

Expecting men to initiate isn't ideal, but it's not the primary expectation that's hurting men.

I'd say it is. I'd say it's the main reason a lot of women put up with men approaching & making them uncomfortable. If 90% of women aren't gonna make the first move on you (cuz they themselves expect men to make the first move including feminists), then to have consistent success, you need to ramp up your efforts a lot higher or nothing will happen. You're downplaying the scale & importance this factor has on men.

I don't think a discussion of what "society" expects can happen without discussing media - it shapes our culture.

I agree with this statement, but it still doesn't change my explanation of why it doesn't match up to today's reality. Today's media is not like how you described it to be because the culture we live today isn't teaching men to pursue a woman after she's rejected him hoping she'll change her mind. That trope was played out in 80s media, not today's media.

Like you said, these are usually pieces of practical advice, and different things try to "pitch" you on different views - ultimately it's up to us to decide what we believe.

These issues are being touted by a large part of society (I'd say even society as a whole) and you wanna just shoehorn that to just "decide what you believe"?? How about we tell society to be consistent with that they preach (& I understand that takes years but we can't just leave it in the air like that.)

Why should you make the first move? Because for better or worse, that's the social contract right now.
Why is that the social contract? Men have been cast as pursuers and women pursued.

I don't think you're being sincere here. The answer to your first question is society conforming men to their gender role and you wanna minimize that to "that's the social contract right now". And your answer to that second question ignores the fact that women have already been freed from their role, they're just choosing not to approach as it's more convenient for them that way.

Approaching someone you're interested in is nerve-wracking, of course they don't wanna put themselves through that. Many anti-feminists claimed, "feminists want the benefits of being equal to men but don't want the responsibilities that come with it." This is how you're coming across rn with your replies.

so your primary goal in your approach is to make her comfortable.

I agree with this sentiment, but it still won't make them feel less comfortable when we do approach. We can be as polite and respectful as possible, but many women assume men just want sex from them or assume they might do something worse. And this isn't a few women, this is a lot of them. They already have a fear of every strange man she comes across like you've said, so it's not just our efforts, it's by sheer numbers of finding someone who'd at least give us a shot. A lot of single men are checking out of dating for this reason and are hoping luck will bring them a gf. The guys who won't check out of dating are the assholes who couldn't care less about women's safety.

"Hey, have you gotten yelled at for turning down a guy yet tonight? I can try to muster something up for you if you want."

I can tell you from experience that line you just came up here will make her even more uncomfortable guaranteed. When approaching a woman, your primary goal is to make her feel as relaxed when she's around you so she can engage comfortably. Your example statement brings back horrible memories of yelling, and women often do base their decisions on how they feel in the moment when interacting with a guy. She'll wanna get away from you faster when you frame it like that.

All in all, this feels like we're going in circles with this. I'm now at a point of stopping this discussion with you weather you reply or not.

vlakas , 11 months ago

That I think takes the cake for the most hilariously bad pickup line I've ever heard 🤣. I guarantee that would make a girl uncomfortable.

I agree with your comments u/Mshuser, it seems like your interlocutor can't understand that society's expectations are the problem, not men's sense of self worth. Again, unsurprisingly, they conclude that men are uniquely the problem and that this is an individual problem they must solve themselves with no help from anyone else.

In regard to the issue of women not making the first move, most men know that they will likely remain alone if they don't initiate. Women by and large don't initiate (there are exceptions, but that's the rule), which I get. It's nerve-wracking like you said and extremely uncomfortable sticking yourself out there just to more than likely be rejected. But then again, women are far more likely to get a yes than men are.

Ultimately, only women have the power to change this societal expectation. If you see someone you're interested in, strike up a conversation with him or ask him out, depending on the situation, instead of hoping that he'll telepathically know you're into him.

dil , 11 months ago

Fair enough, thanks for the discussion.

it's the main reason a lot of women put up with men approaching & making them uncomfortable

Yes! This is a large part of why I don't think that needing to approach women is the problem - women generally want to be approached.

You're downplaying the scale & importance this factor has on men

Are you saying that men needing to always be on the lookout for women to approach is the problem?
The only other thing I could think would be the impact of being rejected, but that's what I was saying too.

These issues are being touted by a large part of society (I'd say even society as a whole) and you wanna just shoehorn that to just "decide what you believe"?? How about we tell society to be consistent with that they preach (& I understand that takes years but we can't just leave it in the air like that.)

Oh for sure we should change society. Hell, that's the reason I'm on here - I think that having these conversations helps shift society's expectations.

I don't think you're being sincere here. The answer to your first question is society conforming men to their gender role and you wanna minimize that to "that's the social contract right now". And your answer to that second question ignores the fact that women have already been freed from their role, they're just choosing not to approach as it's more convenient for them that way.

I was being sincere, apologies for not coming off that way. I was trying to focus on what one guy can do, and there's nothing a guy can do about the expectation that they approach women - either they conform to their role or they miss their shot. It sucks, and it's nerve-wracking, but it's the only practical way that you're going to talk to her. Though I'm curious about your thoughts on dating apps.

RandoCalrandian , 11 months ago

It’s funny that no matter what happens, the answer ends up that the man is in the wrong and the one who needs to change or do something.

What happens when the men changing their individual or collective behavior does fuck all to address the problem, or even that they all wake up and realize the system was designed this way with women never being held responsible for changing so that men can continue to be controlled at will?

hotpotato138 , 11 months ago

Because of what they're taught by PUA/TRP, they react poorly to simple rejections from women due to society telling them that their value is tied to how successful they are sexually.

I don't think TRP is responsible for guys getting mad at women for rejecting them. The guys who get mad are already crazy prior to learning anything from any of the pills.

dil , 11 months ago

Yeah it is basic social skills haha. I do understand it though (but do not excuse it), especially with what @Mshuser has been saying.

Rejection sucks for everyone, but if your self worth is tied up in how successful you are when approaching women, rejection becomes a judgement of your value. Instead of hearing "no" (which could be for a million different reasons) they hear "you are not enough" (which would be a mean thing to say), and they react to the latter.

RandoCalrandian , 11 months ago

Well maybe if men weren’t almost entirely responsible for dealing with rejection, and women dealt with some of it, then it wouldn’t be an issue?

Seriously tho, it’s hilarious to watch a woman complain about how badly men take rejection.

I’d bring up some stories of how women handle it, but you can Google the damage they cause on your own. And that’s with them dealing with <1% of what men are expected to deal with

In case you were wondering why all your advice sounded outrageously sexist when you read it back to yourself 😁

hotpotato138 , 11 months ago

Instead of hearing "no" (which could be for a million different reasons) they hear "you are not enough" (which would be a mean thing to say), and they react to the latter.

Those are the guys who feel entitled to sex. Most men feel disappointed when they get rejected. The guys who feel entitled are "black pilled", not "red pilled." I don't identify with any of the pills.

RandoCalrandian , 11 months ago

This conversation conveniently ignores how many women frequently reflect men by outright saying “you are not enough”

In fact, if they have an audience, they’ll often do even more: “and how dare you think you were good enough to even talk to me, you creepy pervert go die”

But to many people, even that one is the man’s fault, because as some commenters have clearly shown: everything is

Mshuser OP , 11 months ago

The guys who feel entitled are "black pilled", not "red pilled." I don't identify with any of the pills.

Both pills can feel entitled to sex. Hell you can be no pill and feel entitled to sex. Entitlement comes when you feel like women or men should give you sex for multiple reasons. For the redpiller, it means being the alpha. For the black piller, that means being chad. For the average joe, that means being a 'nice guy'. But all examples of guys with different background who'd feel entitled to sex.

hotpotato138 , 11 months ago (edited 11 months ago)

EVERY woman has had MANY bad experiences with men, because some guys are shitty.

Feminist propaganda also demonizes all men. It might be annoying for women to be approached by 90% of guys they don't find attractive.

dil , 11 months ago

No reasonable person thinks all men are bad.

The belief that women in general should be wary of men in general is NOT feminism, it has been taught for a loooonnnnggg time.

Feminism actually says "it's fucked up that we're taught to be afraid of men" and aims to make a society where that isn't the case. Both men and women want this, as we've talked about in this thread.

Step one of that is acknowledging why we're in the current situation. It's understanding that women being afraid of men isn't women's fault, it's society's. It's the fact that too many men have been raised in a way that they make women feel unsafe.

Step two is examining what society is doing to make things this way. It points out problematic undercurrents in what we teach society, and how those teachings result in people who behave poorly. This isn't demonizing all men, it's demonizing behavior and beliefs that SOME (I'd even say many) men have.

Step three is replacing those problematic views with better ones. It's changing social pressure on women AND men. It's letting women not feel obligated to be pretty all the time. It's valuing men who don't conform to the 6'5" macho man stereotype. It's dropping toxic definitions of success and how men and women behave. It's expecting everyone to be kind and value each other's emotions.

Also, agree that it'd be annoying to be approached by mostly unattractive guys, but the main problem isn't getting approached, it's the mental load of needing suddenly manage another person's emotions. If every unattractive guy came up, took a "no" in stride, and moved on, women would be way, WAY more open to men approaching them.

Mshuser OP , 11 months ago

Feminism (I'm talking about ideology) hasn't said it's fucked up we're taught to be afraid of men. If anything, they contributed more to that with their campaigns. Yes, women have been wary of men for a long time, it didn't mean feminist (esp OG feminists) didn't play a part in making that worse.

It's the fact that too many men have been raised in a way that they make women feel unsafe.

Men weren't raised this way by general society. It actually raises men to not bother women and leave them alone (mostly a good thing until said guy expresses romantic interest in getting to know a woman, in which society says "if you like her, go up to her and let her know how you feel" how is he supposed to do that while following the above?) Guys make women feel unsafe due to their own mental issues, being raised by misogynists or traditionalists, etc. But in cases outside of it, guys are generally respectful of women and don't bother them. Once they resort to PUA/TRP, this is where they're likely to start learning this stuff and eventually make women feel unsafe following a misguided path to romantic success. This is where even good guys start making them feel uncomfortable. Tying in with step 2, our solution would be to figure out why exactly the guys are going to PUA/TRP, and what other alternative can we offer them that A) helps them take control of their dating lives and B) not make women feel uncomfortable. This would include asking questions like should we encourage approaching, expressing interest, anytime anywhere or not? And if we do, how do we do it to make sure all parties are satisfied?

As for your step 3, I generally agree with you. It's not just replacing problematic beliefs with new ones. There also needs to be practicality for a man or a woman to shoot their shot clearly yet ethically. We should encourage them that it's okay to make the first move, that it's okay to ask someone you find attractive out, it's okay to go after what you want, even if it means just casual sex, and develop guidelines to help get those while keeping everyone safe.

hotpotato138 , 11 months ago

The belief that women in general should be wary of men in general is NOT feminism, it has been taught for a loooonnnnggg time.
Feminism actually says "it's fucked up that we're taught to be afraid of men" and aims to make a society where that isn't the case. Both men and women want this, as we've talked about in this thread.

I believe women should be cautious around strangers. I'm cautious too. There are some feminists who do demonize men's sexuality. Some of them thought all men are rapists. Every feminist has different beliefs about it.

It's the fact that too many men have been raised in a way that they make women feel unsafe.

Yes, I think men should be taught to respect women and vice versa. There's always gonna be a few creepy men. We can't totally prevent creepy men from interacting with women. The creepy men should be punished.

Some women pretend to be victims, even when they're not. There are videos about women at the gym and they label a guy creepy. The guys are usually minding their own business. Some of those women probably identify as feminists.

a-man-from-earth , 11 months ago

women are right to be afraid of us

No, they are not. We are individuals. Judging us all based on bad experiences with some men is wrong. It's sexist.

And many men also have bad experiences with women, but we're taught to shrug it off, even if it were recognized as sexual assault or rape with genders reversed.

RandoCalrandian , 11 months ago

Dating is more dangerous for men than for women

It only seems like the reverse due to your Gamma bias