I would like to make a few counterpoints to yours from the opposite perspective.
To your first point: Nearly everyone here came from Reddit's API fiasco. We all already left the place that housed the vast majority of the content and went somewhere much slower and quieter. If Threads were to abandon ActivityPub in the future, we would still have the same users who are here now, and if returning the fediverse to it's current level of activity is to be considered a death sentence for it, wouldn't that mean we're already doomed? Things are stable right now though and we have enough activity to sustain a social network as is, so the loss of Threads content wouldn't be our downfall unless a majority of our current users decide its too quiet without them. However, I wouldn't expect the group who left all of Reddit's content behind to be the type who would also abandon their accounts here just because the Threads users aren't here again.
As for the second and third points, the beauty of ActivityPub is that it allows users to choose the services they want to use in order to access the same content across the fediverse, and it wouldn't be right for us to try to dictate how others choose to access an open protocol. If someone who is interested in joining the network decides to do so through Threads, that should be their choice to make, even though I personally think its the wrong one. In all likelihood though, someone making an account on Threads wouldn't have consciously joined the wider fediverse of their own volition anyway. Once they're on though and have a chance to maybe learn a little about these "third party services" they see, they'll make their way to these places instead. Exposure to the fediverse is the best way to understand it from my experience. There have also been a whole host of people who already signed up for Mastodon accounts without understanding a thing about what a federated network entails, they just wanted out of Twitter.
I don't think its right to view ActivityPub as competition to mainstream social media networks, it's a tool meant to help build a better unified social media network. If we limit who can use the tool, we'll only be hindering the growth of the fediverse.
Thanks for the alternate perspective! However, it doesn't really alleviate my concerns much:
Firstly, the claim "Nearly everyone here came from Reddit's API fiasco." isn't necessarily true, as the fediverse consists of more than Lemmy and the threads section on Kbin. Threads primarily concerns microblogging, which includes platforms like Mastodon, Misskey, Firefish, Friendica, and Kbin. Even so, you could say that all of these people came from similar situations — they all could've chose Twitter or what have you and instead chose the smaller platforms on the fediverse. But does that really mean that they'll stay here? This whole situation is showing that people are desperate for activity, even if that activity means relying on a corporation with interests that go against ours. People have already left following drops in activity — during Ernest's hiatus, the number of active Kbin users plummeted (yes, it was always going to down after the initial rise from the Reddit migration, but Kbin went down a lot, especially compared to Lemmy) and hasn't recovered. Those people, who have tried it and said, "Yeah, this isn't really working," are really hard to get back.
Now, imagine if everyone here got used to the large amount of microblog content provided by Threads, interacted with it a bunch, followed a bunch of Threads accounts, etc. like people are expressing plans to do. If Threads quits federating, thereby making all of that content and connection inaccessible to the rest of the fediverse, do you think people will stick around after that much of an activity drop? No, tons of people are going to follow the 99% of activity and flock to Threads, leaving the open fediverse in a position worse than right now. If you want to give Meta the chance to kill the fediverse's chance of growing to become a legitimate competitor, this is how you do it.
What you say about people having choice is true. If people want to access the fediverse through Threads, that is absolutely their choice. However, another beauty of ActivityPub is that we have the choice over whether we accept interaction with Threads or not. We don't have to become dependent on Meta to carry the fediverse — we can shut them out immediately and grow slowly but surely. If someone wants to join Threads, we aren't under any obligation to show them our content. Instead, saying, "Hey, if you want interaction with us, head over to something that cares about an open fediverse like a Mastodon or Kbin instance," is going to be much better for us long-term.
I don't think its right to view ActivityPub as competition to mainstream social media networks,
No matter how we view it, Meta views ActivityPub as competition to Threads and rightfully so. The values we currently hold on the fediverse — transparency from moderators & developers, no one instance having control, people having lots of choice, etc. — are values that directly go against Meta's profit whether they join ActivityPub or not. It is in Meta's best interest to pull as many users from here as possible and to nip the fediverse in the bud before it grows. Zuckerberg is not here to play nice, and I can't fathom how anyone would believe so. He does not care about a decentralized, open fediverse. He wants to get as many people on his platform as possible and to make potential competitors less viable, and this is how he can do it.
Big takeaways, emphasis preserved from the original:
Threads is entering a space in the fediverse which is dominated by Mastodon, so it's Mastodon and other fediverse microblogging services (including, to some extent, /kbin) which will most heavily feel the impact of Threads.
Defederating another server means your instance will stop requesting content from that server. ... Defederation is about what data comes in, not what goes out. ... Defederation doesn't make you invisible, it doesn't block anybody else from seeing you, it doesn't protect your content, it only means you never have to see their content.
Firstly, the fediverse is a drop in the ocean compared to Threads (104 million registered users). Obviously, Meta wants everybody, but their specific goals in terms of user-poaching are far more likely to center around the ~350 million active Twitter users than the ~12 million fediverse users (~3.5 million active). The threadiverse [Lemmy, Kbin, et al] is smaller again, at something like 100,000 active users.
"Threads will overwhelm the fediverse with their inferior content and culture." Like the EEE fears, this one is legitimate but once again something that will primarily be felt by microblogging providers (/kbin included). Toxic users, advertisers, etc. can push garbage into feeds all day, but they will largely not be targeting the threadiverse because there's some 100 million sets of eyes to put that crap in front of on the microblogging side and it will be difficult-to-impossible for them to push that content into Lemmy/kbin threads from their interface that was never made to interact with the threadiverse.
Is there any chance Meta has good intentions?No. But it might have intentions that are both self-serving and fediverse-neutral. The absolute best intention I can possibly ascribe to Meta is that joining the fediverse is a CYA (cover your ass) mechanism to head off regulations, especially in the EU, [e.g.] the newly-applicable Digital Markets Act ...
Defederation is about what an instance allows in, not what an instance allows out. Defederation stops you seeing the defederated instance's content, but it does not stop them seeing your instance's content.
Threads poses some danger to the fediverse, in particular the portion of it centered around microblogging (mostly Mastodon, but also Pleroma, parts of /kbin, etc.), but very little risk to the threadiverse.
The worst thing about the fediverse is all the fondue, but you don't have to eat it.
Emphasis from the original post.
This is a detailed summary, thank you for linking.
I have also read some other POVs here; my fears are not totally allayed and I still think Meta is only engaing with Activity Pub to prevent new, potential competitors arising from it.
I hope the OP is right about it being very little risk to the Threadiverse. The good news is that Threads is focused enitrely on microblogging and not the Threadiverse. Perhaps that means Kbin and Lemmy users will be able to sit on the sidelines and see how it plays out for a bit, idk. Mastodon users will be seeing the most change.
The issue is that this does affect Kbin because Kbin is a microblogging platform. It's also a thread aggregator, but it has microblog functionality that some people do actually use. Should we not defederate, stuff from Threads will flood the microblogs of Kbin. If your home page is set to use the All Content feed (like mine is), you'll see microblogs from Threads there. This doesn't have as much of an effect as it does on a purely microblogging-focused platform like Mastodon, but it does still affect a big way that Kbin is used.
Right, and that’s part of why I remain a skeptic. Kbin’s microblog being overtaken by Thread’s content could very well limit kbin’s growth and viability as a microblogging platform - especially if Meta pulls the plug later.
But, I have also seen the opinion that not having Threads content could make kbin unappealing as a microblogging platform. (I’m not sure if I agree with this, but I have seen it mentioned.)
I guess the questions are, Can Kbin grow with Threads content? And, Will the lack of Threads content make it unappealing to new users?
Also, another problem I think is that kbin might not have the userbase and content yet to be self-sustaining when faced with a goliath company like Meta; if we produced as much content as Threads will (or enough to the point that defederating kbin would hurt Threads) then there wouldn’t be much of a concern.
Idk, Threads is ultimately the one forcing the situation (probably intentionally) where federating with them is risky but also refusing to do so could be self-isolating. I still maintain that they’re doing it now while the fediverse is still young for a reason, and that is so they can grab so much of the “fondue” that everyone comes to them anyway.
I would like to see kbin succeed, and I don’t trust Meta. Whatever kbin decides to do I will be here for it, but I’m definitely a Meta skeptic.
To put my own skin in the game, I quite like the microblogging side of kbin. I like that I can swap between the thread and blog sides, I like that I can combine them into one view if I choose, and I like that I don't need a separate account to use either service. Using kbin's microblog was the first time I ever blogged, period. I'd hate to see that stream be overwhelmed by Threads users.
Exactly one of the reasons why I remain a skeptic.
I don’t want sound too much like I’m complaining about “Eternal September” but I quite like how kbin’s microblog is right now. Having millions of threads users suddenly flood it with random… crap… would change it forever.
I haven’t used instagram in more than half a decade. When I hopped on to see what it was like recently, I hardly recognized it and all the content was completely irrelevant. I would hate to see that happen to the microblog.
Threads presents a serious danger to the long-term viability of the fediverse if we become dependent on it for content, and our best bet at avoiding that is defederation.
If Threads federates... it's part of the fediverse.
Even if you don't accept that tautology, sure, maybe the fediverse (not including Threads, which is also fediverse at that point, but ok whatever) doesn't do great, but kbin will definitely suffer if it defederates from Threads, once Threads becomes part of the fediverse federates does whatever you think it'll be doing that's not exactly the same thing as joining the fediverse and therefore becoming part of the thing that you think will become non-viable after the most viable piece of it joins. Kbin will become an also-ran within the fediverse, because most users will want to use tools that allow them to interact with the most people.
I guess what I'm saying is you can't in one breath say that "Threads will join the fediverse" and then in the next breath say "the fediverse will become non-viable" as if Threads isn't part of the fediverse in the second breath. Let's not do "separate but equal" with social media, please. It's silly.
If Kbin defederates from Threads, it'll be Kbin that suffers.
This may be an issue of poor wording on my part. The idea I'm trying to get across is that if Kbin, Mastodon, & other microblog platforms that are currently on the fediverse don't defederate from Threads, the users on those platforms will become dependent on Meta for activity. If Meta then leaves the fediverse, activity will drop down to what we have now, only with people used to the activity brought by Threads and having all of the connections they made with Threads accounts. This will pull tons of people from Kbin, Mastodon, etc. and essentially kill the open fediverse with very little hope of it growing again.
And to be clear, Meta has tons of incentive to do this. Meta is a profit-driven company. They want as many people as possible on their platforms, not on Mastodon or on Kbin or on Firefish or on Misskey. The open, widely distributed fediverse that we strive for goes against Meta's motives. Just as they'd have everyone on the Metaverse if he could, Zuckerberg will absolutely pull people from Kbin onto Threads if he gets the chance, and he will get that chance if we decide to put the content pool in the hands of Meta for the sake of trying to get activity as quickly as possible.
Kbin will become an also-ran within the fediverse, because most users will want to use tools that allow them to interact with the most people.
I'm not sure this holds. Surely if it was the primary factor in deciding which social media everyone chose, Kbin would already be dead at the hands of Twitter? Federation doesn't really change that argument if it's only about interacting with the most people.
That said I do agree that we need enough instances to defederate from Threads for this to work. If Threads overwhelms every other instance with volume and kills them, Kbin is alone and not really better off for having defederated. But as a pretty big instance, Kbin doing this is a major part of ensuring that the fediverse does not just become a collection of quirky alternative interfaces for Threads.
as if Threads isn't part of the fediverse in the second breath.
If Threads puts out so much more content as to effectively make other federated entities irrelevant, the character of the Fediverse changes such that it is no longer what it is today. Federation is meaningless if 99.9% of content comes from one place. Kbin would wind up as effectively just a weird third party interface for threads in that situation.
Let's not do "separate but equal" with social media, please. It's silly.
Is it meaningfully different to any other instance of defederation? Many of which I would say are generally beneficial to Kbin.
If Threads puts out so much more content as to effectively make other federated entities irrelevant, the character of the Fediverse changes such that it is no longer what it is today.
I see what you’re saying, but I really don’t see what Meta stands to gain in the long run from an open fediverse. It just doesn’t seem compatible with their business model to allow users who aren’t on their platform to interact with content created on their platform. They need data so they can sell it to advertisers, and I don’t see how that works when your users can just jump to another instance with no advertisments and access all the same content.
What do you think Meta stands to gain from Activity Pub, and why wouldn’t they just make their own closed protocol? (I am asking in good faith, because I do not really know.)
As I understand it, they’re joining precisely because they’d gain little. By flooding it with their content, any new user would think Fediverse=Threads.
I’ve seen the acronym EEE (Embrace, Expand, Extinguish) thrown a lot in these discussions because it’s a 3-word summary of their presumed strategy.
My question is, what has Threads done to influence Mastodon development so far in a bad way.
lets Say threads is just the mainstream platform of the fediverse. The protocol is all open source, and every one is in control of their servers. If it is federated whats the worse that could happen?
Plus you can always switch to lemmy, firefish, and etc. to try to avoid threads platform wide.
I wouldn't say kbin would be harmed necessarily even if maybe just a tiny bit. A good amount of the users on Lemmy (can't say much about kbin hadn't tried it yet) hate threads. So as an alternative to Mastodon, that would actually more likely score them points not detract from a user perspective.
Most likely, for a user to be on kbin or Lemmy you either come from Reddit, or you come from Mastodon so the users would had likely made up their mind on separating themselfs from major platforms, that likely includes threads.
Counterpoint, what has Meta done to gain even the tiniest bit of the semblance of the doubt. If someone's punched you in the face every time you've knocked on their door, are you really going to knock on it a 15th time? You'd be a fool to expect that time to be any different.
Just like you'd be a fool to expect the overall impact of Meta having their fingers in the Fediverse to be anything other than harmful.
I feel the post doesn't really address my concerns.
Really? You think Threads will take over and rule Mastodon? Threads is its own platform, users on the fediverse can still join Mastodon #servers of their choice and leave. I expect we'l see plenty of anti #threads Mastodon servers pop up. If Threads were to somehow get an influence in Mastodon, just switch to #lemmy switch to #pixelfed switch to #firefish So many choices.
This seems to not really understand the risk Threads poses. Threads is its own platform, yes, but it will dominate the visible content of any instance that federates with it. It's very dangerous to depend on a massive, profit-driven corporation for activity on the fediverse, as the things we value on the fediverse (decentralization, transparency, even distribution of content between instances, etc.) go against the corporation's motives. Meta does not stand to benefit from any of the things we value, and most of the Threads userbase (i.e. casual Instagram users) probably won't notice or care about federation. Meta does benefit if everyone depends on them for content, as then they can pull people to Threads just by defederating. People will choose to go to Threads where the amount of activity is what they're used to over staying on their Mastodon instance after activity has plummeted and they can't see most of the people they follow.
This is a big one. Meta might capture the mainstrean fediverse. Lets just be real the average regular internet user wasn't going to join Mastodon in the first place. Not that they wouldn't want to it just isn't on their list next to #facebook#instagram#tiktok#youtube#discord or even #twitter . Actually I take what Meta is doing as a compliment to the fediverse. Remember Twitter at one time under #elon#elonmusk banned the talk of Mastodon or something like that. Threads might not have our interests at heart but they are already mainstream so why should they not allow their users be federated with us?
Yes, there are definitely a lot of people that the fediverse is just never going to appeal to. But of those who are interested in the fediverse, more will be inclined to join Threads due to it having most of the content & just requiring an Instagram login. There is a pool of people out there who will try out the fediverse if they're introduced to it — that's how we all got here — and if people can interact with the big Mastodon, Kbin, etc. instances from Threads, many will choose to do that when they wouldn't have otherwise.
@ThatOneKirbyMain2568@rob299 Yes. But also Meta's screwed-up moderation systems will be brought to bear against fedi instances. The latter will essentially have to endure a shitty AI-generated smear campaign.
@FinchHaven@ThatOneKirbyMain2568 what I meant by that section you quoted from the post was, if Meta were to influence the development of Mastodon. If you switch to Firefish or others mentioned, you would probably have a more preferred dev team then what could happen to Mastodon with Meta.
I don't think "the development" is what is claimed to be at stake here.
OP is not talking about the software, they're talking about the content. And the content model from Mastodon is not interchangeable with the one from Lemmy, Pixelfed, etc. they serve different purposes and have different models.
It's like saying that if most people use gmail for email you will switch from email to phone calls to avoid communicating with google's service. As if real time audio were the same thing as sending a message.
One thing you could argue is, instead of switching services, switching to an instance that does defederate if you dont want threads content. But that same argument can be said as well towards those wanting threads federation...
But dont think the point is what does the individual want (if that were the case, just use the option to block threads content for your user, without defederating), the point is what's best for the fediverse. I think people are afraid that something similar to what happened with "google talk" and their embrace of xmpp will repeat.
Personally, I think there's no reason to jump the gun this early... all of this post is based on a lot of weak assumptions. I dont believe that threads content would overwhelm the feeds, and if that were to happen then the software could be tweaked to prevent it.
This looks rather like a discovery issue and is quite common with newly created instances on the Fediverse. You have to search for everything you want for a couple of times before you make your instance aware of the content or other instances aware of yours.
You can more easily overcome this by connecting your instance to an ActivityPub Relay, but I don't know how this is done on a Kbin instance.
The transient nature of this sort of image is one aspect that I really appreciate. Someone on foot, in a car, on a bike will run over it. Or the Sun will come to melt it. Regardless it will only be there for a short time. Ephemeral beauty has an urgency and immediacy to it.
Update: m/LinuxHardware is now listed on r/LinuxHardware's sidebar as the alternative fediverse destination, we will continue to work closely to strenghten this new partnership.
I doubt you’re going to get many responses here that aren’t basically ” you don’t need Windows at all, proton is magic that will solve all of your problems"
I’m going to give the opposite advice. I can tell you from experience, if you dual boot Windows and Linux, you’re going to find that over time, while in Windows to use the stuff that only works there, you’ll ask yourself “do I really need to shut down Windows and boot into Linux just for that one thing I need to use real quick?”, and you’ll just do it in Windows. You’ll do that more and more, until you realize you have that Linux install sitting on your drive for no reason, because you don’t use it.
My advice is to either test out a gaming-centric Linux distro, and see if EVERYTHING you want to use works fully(and I do mean try it for yourself, doubt just assume it works because other people say it does, Google a setup guide for the thing you want, and actually try it), or if you have anything you want to use that MUST run on Windows, just stick to Windows for the time being. You can always keep an eye on the status of the thing you want to run, and when it works properly on Linux, have another look at switching fully.
One exception would be if you really only spend a very small amount of time gaming, and so would only need to be in Windows occasionally. If you really will spend the vast majority of your time in Linux, then it makes sense to dual boot. But if you plan to spend any real amount of time doing stuff in Windows, you’re going to find it really obnoxious to have to go back and forth.
I appreciate this input, thank you. You make a valid point. I don't game much, so there wouldn't be too much back and forth. This is also just about learning what it's like to use Linux. I have a backup apple device, which is the OS I'm used to, and it would remain my daily driver for all essential tasks. For now, at least. So I have the luxury of trying stuff out on the pc laptop but not being bound by it.
That's what I've gathered: to go with Mint. I saw somewhere that I might, however, need to get something tweaked to the gpu card that I have? For reference, I just bought a Lenovo Legion Slim 5 (Ryzen 7 7840HS; NVIDIA RTX 4060). Apparently Linux struggles with NVIDIA cards?
I've also heard of Proton. Do games take a performance hit played through that? I just figured I'd boot Windows for games, to remove a challenge from this transition. But if it's not much of a challenge, and performance doesn't take a hit, I'm certainly willing to give it a shot.
The NVIDIA thing has been answered elsewhere in the thread, so I'll answer the other one: ... It depends, but usually there's a minor performance hit. Other times it works just as well, and there are some edge cases where it actually works better.
There's also the issue of compatibility: in general, if anti-cheat software is involved, expect to have problems. This website is a database for Steam games with reports from users about what works, what doesn't work, and what can be done to fix or at least mitigate what doesn't work. You can sync your Steam library to it to see how well the games you have are supported at a glance.
NVIDIA works fine for regular use (including gaming and training ML).
Mint makes changing to the propriety drivers easy, as you just search for and open the drivers screen, and then select the latest propriety driver. Mint will take care of the rest.
Now, I haven’t used AMD in a long time, so I’m not sure what it has that NVIDIA doesn’t since I haven’t experienced any NVIDIA problems, other than open source drivers.
I was going to default to Mint, just because it's the one I've most encountered being referenced, especially for beginners. I'll do some searching on Pop_Os vs Mint. Thank you!
Yes, initially thoughts on a distro. As well as addressing a concern I encountered about additional steps that are perhaps necessary with an NVIDIA card (that it doesn't mix as easily with Linux, I think). And, of course, whatever else I should know straight out the gate — although I assume a lot would be covered in the process of installing a distro.
I've definitely noted the development of gaming with Linux. Dual boot was just to have one less element in the mix, as I adjust to Linux (I've MacOs for a while now). TBH, there's a bit of an irrational element, too: I got a PC so I can play a bunch of games that aren't on Macs. So if I'm going to find a workaround in Linux, well, why didn't/don't I do that with a Mac, instead?
You'll just need to check how to install the proprietary NVIDIA drivers on your distro. For most that won't be a problem. Just a quick google search, haven't tried this myself: https://itsfoss.com/nvidia-linux-mint/
I’m friends with a furry artist and he wouldn’t join fedi mainly due to fears from fediblocking, unhelped by how fandom drama gets in general, not just in the furry sphere, and major drama with mastodon.art using some grifter’s block list which blocks like over 50% of the fediverse.
From what I’ve learned, being friends with him and other artists (and following ones I’m interested in), a lot of creators want a ready-made audience to advertise their artwork to, which was where Twitter came into play and why a lot of them are going for Bluesky instead since it’s recreated that experience for them. It gets hairier when it comes to NSFW content, too, since some places on the fediverse are absolutely fine with it on their timeline, and some places are definitely not. Though Bluesky has popularised CWs for adult content in that sphere, some instances don’t like users posting NSFW and will request it be unlisted if it’s allowed at all.
If the creator is SFW only, they’ll have a lot of good luck using a general purpose Mastodon instance, unless they find a community that suits them better. Joinmastodon.org has a good list, and a lot of them don’t have that networking issue except with very fringe instances.
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