Men are also different from women. Not just physically but mentally. Part of the problem the writer had was not understanding how male friendships work and expecting a mirror of female friendships. Certainly it can be lonelier as a man but in some ways it’s just the way we are.
I’m just saying that men in general have a much easier time being alone. I don’t think we should always be alone, but more men than women have the ability to be solitary and happy at the same time.
I think the important thing here is that there’s absolutely no reason it HAS to be this way. These aren’t intrinsic properties of male and female friendships. They are driven primarily by cultural factors and have changed significantly even over recent history.
I’m just saying the cultures arise from the people. There’s a reason things are the way they are and it’s not some evil corporation or government trying to oppress us. At least in the west. Can’t quite say that about China or other Communist regimes.
Things are the way they are because people are forced into the culture they were born into and are pressured at every angle to stay that way or face social backlash.
I got called gay cause I got too excited while talking to one of my friends. Because it’s a common culture trait in America that any overly positive emotion towards another guy means your a sissy boy
They called you gay not because they thought you were homosexual but as an offhanded insult. The two definitions have been disconnected for quite a while.
Trust me it wasn’t just an insult where I grew up it had a seriously negative impact on my ability to socialize or form any kind of romantic relationship
You're right to a point, it's just coming off as dismissive.
Yes, men and women are built differently through biology. Yes, hormones give an innate edge for certain factors. One of them may very well be the ability to last without a social structure for longer than women. We've slowly built up our society with smoky mirrors of those facts around us.
What they're saying is that nature vs nurture isn't 100% one way or the other which I think you'd agree with. It's more you're both pressing pedantic points lol.
It does when it comes to closeness and intimacy with friends. Look at a lot of European cultures where kissing your friends is extremely common and closeness is normalized.
It’s all the anti gay shit that gets spread in America that makes men uncomfortable to be close and open with their friends
I really appreciate you taking the time to say that.
A side note to the above; men struggle to keep friends, especially as the years go on, but our group keeps growing (all initiated to the power of hugs and love).
I think it’s the openness that’s made it so much easier to stick together rather than fade away. I hope more men can open up and deeply bond beyond surface interests and common spaces.
Of course! Changing the world starts with changing the world immediately around you. You're truly doing good, even more so by opening your group to newcomers!
Ignoring the biological effects of testosterone on the male body is dangerous. This makes males aggressive, violent, and hierarchical. These are intrinsic and not driven by cultural factors. Sports exist for a healthier outlet for this aggressive and biological need for competition.
Lol nice. Well I’m sorry, if you lived in the US in a state that we frequent, I would get you a few hugs. Maybe you should just make a sign that says free hugs and stand in the middle of a public area. I’ll bet you would get some real good ones…
Easily possible. Grow up somewhere with a lot of macho man mentality with a toxic masculine father figure that wants nothing more than for you to grow up to be their clone that only like MAN stuff. Took me over 30 years to be hugged the way I didn’t know i needed to be hugged because I fell into a friendship with a woman that knew a few broken men.
The problem is not about you. It’s about your ability to accept another man who wants a “female” friendship. And apparently you don’t want any of that, which makes you part of the problem.
I’m talking about a woman who wanted to physically be a man but is still mentally programmed as a woman could not understand male friendships. It’s not that men don’t have friends or deep friendships. It’s just that they’re usually different from the opposite gender.
I’m going to go ahead and pin this for a couple days. This is by far the most well thought out piece of OC we’ve had here and I want to showcase it a little.
Instead, it explores new expectations for boys and men, such as emotional availability and vulnerability, traits which traditionally belonged to women. Traditional masculinity finds adaptation of those expectations challenging and difficult.
What is unfortunate is that many women still have traditional views of masculinity. Including traits such as emotional availability and vulnerability. These traits clash with their (subconscious?) views of gender roles. It can and does lead to rejection of the male for doing what he thinks he “should” do as a modern man.
Thank you for taking the time to write and share this. I’ll read more and comment when I have more time.
I’m very lucky to have a healthy relationship with my partner where we can both be vulnerable and we support each other.
That said, to get there I also had to integrate the fact that I could be vulnerable whilst also being confident and assert my beliefs, views and opinions (in a healthy way).
This will be a controversial recommendation but “Models” by Mark Manson was instrumental for me in finding this new road to being masculine but in a way that was healthy and respectful. The chapters on aggressive/assertive vulnerability and living your truth especially.
I feel that men today need to learn to live their truth, be proud of that truth and not hide it under traditional gender normes (aka agressivité and blatent sexism) or make it subservant to attone for some original sin linked to their sex.
All humans deserve respect and all humans deserve to be able to speak their inner truth and be vulnerable and accepted, no matter their sex or gender.
So conservatives don’t want anything to change and are doubling down on the Old Ways.
The crisis is then that conservatives don’t want anyone to try any alternatives. They blame the alternatives for economic and social realities. They blame problems on people who think in different ways than they do.
I think the crises are authoritarian conservatism and the failures of capitalism. It’s magical thinking to believe that if you vote republican and laugh at lesbians that men will have more sex than they do now.
The crisis is then that conservatives don’t want anyone to try any alternatives. They blame the alternatives for economic and social realities. They blame problems on people who think in different ways than they do.
Uhh, well conservatives fundamentally believe that the Old Ways have stood the test of time. Deviating from it is dangerous and can lead to unforeseen consequences. (Conservative rhetoric characterizes all deviations as either a slippery slope into debauchery, a threat to society, or subtly perverse).
This was a sort of personal research project sparked by reading this forum. I got quite a bit out of it. When I started I honestly thought the two conceptions could be reconciled. It’s something I’ve believed since I learned of the two different conceptions of masculinity. Now, I’m not so sure…probably not.
Anyway, this is my contribution to the lemmy version of his contribution.
I read it, but it’s difficult for me to understand what point you are trying to make, besides observations on traditional and “alternative” masculinity.
For those of us that won’t ever have kids, pets can allow us to exercise and nurture our instincts to take care of a dependent, living creature. I feel like that’s pretty psychically and emotionally important, especially in a new world where more people are choosing not to raise children.
My job had been very cruel to me and it put me in a steep depression. My partner, and I love her so much for this, was cool with me taking some time off to get my head straight. A few months in and I’m sort of drifting and lost. So she buys me a Morkie dog, so now I have something to FORCE a routine onto me and it was great. That was about 6 years ago and little Doug is about 10 years old now and while he’s a total assbutt, he is irreplaceable.
Yeah we have a crisis of masculinity because the patriarchy has decided that manhood is important, but then also anyone with any logical ability notices that gender is a social construct. So men who feel like they benefit from patriarchy and want it to continue must wage a war. Against women and feminists. Against anyone queer. Against any man who doesn’t tow the line that a penis and a sports pendant on the wall of the man cave are like the most important things to ever happen.
I don’t know how to be anything else but myself and I’m not even really good at that. But to be fair, my gender never meant much to me, so the question why be a man, never crossed my mind.
They identify as a man because gender is defined externally to the individual. They were born, the doctor saw a penis, said, "it's a boy" and those around them reinforced male norms onto them: parents tend to cuddle boys less than girls; enforce stoic principles (men don't cry); encourage rougher, more violent play; and encourage more independence. There's plenty of references for these points so I didn't feel the need to provide any.
Most people don't challenge their identity if they don't need to and changing parts of your identity can be traumatic (ask queer person what coming out was like for them). The crisis of masculinity, as with any cultural crisis, is just a conservative, reaction to something that challenges them.
Gender is cultural and temporal so changes all the time; high heeled shoes used to be worn by rich Persian men, pink was the color that boys wore because pink was thought to be a watered down red, the color of the British army that they would, of course, eventually join. The Male Breadwinner model is an interesting way to frame the idea that the man is provider for the family. Prior to the Industrial Revolution the whole family provided.
I’m not really a member of this community, hopefully that’s fine, I am a man.
I don’t think most people are going to know what you want when you ask why they’re a man, they just are men, like a tree is a tree or water is wet. That doesn’t have to discount trans people, because theyre just trans and that’s that.
When you ask what the purpose of being a man is I don’t know what you’re asking. It’s a bit like asking the meaning of life, it’s unanswerable. There are certainly male archetypes, historically the provider, the hunter, the builder, and those are still around but they’re not my goals. I do feel a pressure to make sure my family is provided for and fill that role. I also feel pressure to look good which means exercising and looking traditionally male.
I don’t aspire to be some stereotypical 1800’s moustached bare-knuckle brawler character of masculinity for masculinity’s sake, but when I look at history there are men I aspire to be like (for their achievements and attributes).
Aspiring to be some vague archetypal construct of what a man is seems silly to me. I think people should aspire to have certain values and scruples. Most valuable men I’ve met were defined by their behavior and actions, rather than image and projection.
See, this is what I thought initially: “I’m a man” is an indirect expression of values. And in more thoughtful men, traditional or otherwise, they may be able to articulate their values. So, I think this is probably the best answer.
But then there’s the obvious question of why those values embody being a man only. Why can’t women value the same thing and have the same type of expression? This part of the traditional manliness-as-values makes absolutely no sense to me. It seems unnecessarily restrictive.
Traditional gender roles are useful until they’re no longer useful, as a society changes. I think western culture is going through a number of identity crises as a result of changes to various status quo, and the idea of “manliness” has become confusing for many. And unfortunately, the western world isn’t great at suggesting or encouraging healthy alternatives or the means to individually arrive at them.
This is all clearly just my opinion from my armchair, and I respect and welcome contrasting points of view.
I love Townsends. I love the channel even more after seeing this video. Pioneer times are synonymous with the “rugged individual”, but here is someone who studies the time period and even simulates it who says it’s more about the strength of human bonds we make with our community rather than any individual effort Then he brings it back to modern times and reminds us that it’s the same strength of human bonds that will get us through the difficult environments we face today. That’s an important lesson!
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