I feel like external pressure is only half the problem. It is important but IMO the role model is also a problem. Non toxic masculinity is often describe in the negative of the toxic masculinity : you're good when you are not toxic, not when you are something positive.
In some way it is less restrictive, but in other way it is missing the model.
The other side of this coin is the corruption of the ideal that lead to nihilism. Toxic masculinity corrupts ideals. Violence is strength. Protecting is necessarily the destruction of the threat. Independence is power. Smart is manipulation and deception. Everything is to be seen through a lens of domination and power. And that is the core of the problem.
Instead, a model is to be seen with any quality, but through another lens. Strength can help the weak. Smart can disarm an explosive situation. Power is to be shared and used wisely. Basically, a model opposite to the toxic masculinity can be many things with all the qualities of the virility, but the difference is that they will be used and targeted differently. And for many people, it is to be learnt through a model.
This is a core problem because for many people, if you tell them to drop the toxic behaviour, there will be nothing left to aim for, nothing for them to transform into.
And this goes back to the social validation you're talking about. Going from toxic to positive requires a transformation so that the qualities someone has can be positive instead of negative, but as qualities they can still be praised and admired.
In case you don't know, they explicitly use the term socialist to describe the Federation economy in SNW. I was wondering if ppl liked or hated it? I like it personally since it's not a dodge like "new world economy"
You're all true until allocating scarce resources. These days economy is how to make scarce something that isn't in order to profit from it. See copyrights and patents. In our society a replicator would be the property of a company and you would need to pay it to be allowed to use it.
I am the same. At this point I hardly believe it’s a mishap. IMO the fascists are manipulating the algorithms, or they pay to promote them, or the platform favors them.
I can see a propaganda structure working to manipulate the algorithm or pay to get them better ranked. But I can also see the platforms, Facebook, Google, etc, to favor them intently.
I’d argue that a lot of content on YouTube is much more interesting and clic worthy that the mysoginistic crap they force feed us with.
I agree with you. But I have another blame to this: the far right is the only political side that works on young men, especially on the romantic side of things.
Feminist is the other group that talks about sexuality and men/women relationships. Their fight is the good one, but they vomited men when it comes to #metoo and the consequences, and sometimes men were even excluded.
The outcome is that when you’re a men struggling with women, and this is especially a problem with gamers, long time single men, and young men discovering everything about this kind of things, when you’re struggling, feminism is basically abandoning you and sometimes even blaming you.
The only solution you can find about this is from far right with the most toxic and conservative philosophy there is. But it is the only one you can find, as a man, to try to get better about this. Or at least it was.
Those men were politicaly abandoned. And even here on lemmy you can easily read about people arguing that if a man can’t find a woman, it’s because he is a shitty person and not respectful of women.
So indeed on the one hand the far right led a political fight for this result. But on the other hand no one else was fighting on this ground. The left need to stand up and fight this fight too, rather than to send people seeking help to the far right.
You see, that’s exactly the kind of discourse that leave a highway for fascist to convert those people. Your wrote all this text to basically say fuck you to these men, I won’t help you, help yourself.
Now the far right does tell these men what to do, unlike the left. Obviously they will go with them, because that’s the only support they get.
Feminist movement will not succeed if it doesn’t incorporate men. And women need to be involved in creating a model for men. Otherwise men will simply fall back on the conservative misogyny like they’re doing, and this model do have something for women. Feminist won’t like it though.
I don’t like it either. I like the feminist model. But there’s absolutely nothing for men within it. And this is causing the backlash we can see today.
BTW individual responsibility is the liberal philosophy. Phylosophy that is perfectly fine with fascism if it must come to it. Fascists understand it perfectly, and their misogynistic philosophy is full of individualism. Feminism will not win if it embrace individualism.
Hey, just look at the article. Those men are looking for help, and they are finding it. It’s just the far right that gives it. And here people are blinding themselves and pretending there is nothing more to do about it.
This place is a great start. It is what is needed. It’s late to the party, but better late than never.
I don’t know where you live to have such a narrow definition of it. And it certainly is true for some feminist groups. But feminism is a diverse movement. And some of them are definitely not open to men.
When you can read that the heterosexual couple must end because it’s based on domination and it enforces patriarchy, at best it’s a poor choice of words.
I don’t know the sociology of the people who consider themselves feminists. I read and talk quite some with people, women in fact, who are activists. A published article that defend or promote feminist is activist by definition.
I’ve never seen a moderate feminist article. Would you have one that I can read?
Notice that I didn’t say every feminist was extremist. Some are obviously more moderate than others. But by its nature, feminism is radical. The problem is that men are generally considered allies at best. They’re not included. They’re often excluded.
If some feminists include men, I’ll very gladly learn about them, because I’ve never have before. And I consider myself informed.
These are the wrong questions. The question is how do men and women love each other after metoo? That is the question Andrew tate and the fascists are answering, in a reactionary way.
And Barby (the movie) is a good example of the feminist stance on this: feminists are basically saying “I don’t want to be your doll, fuck off, dont try to love me”. And while the first part is perfectly reasonable and sound, the second part is missing the point. And I realise here that it’s not just me that are abandoned but also women here.
The feminist stance is understandable I guess: they don’t want men to tell them what to be, so they won’t tell men what to be either. But that’s missing the point, the question that’s being asked: how do men and women love eachother after metoo?
People want models, both to understand what to aim for, and to have something to dream about. There are strong women models now all over movies and games. But men are still the old one, and there’s nothing but the old philosophy to answer the question of how do men and women love eachother after metoo. Because feminists abandoned this question.
And it cannot be either men or women to answer it. It must be discussed and agreed. Because women must like what men will be, and men must accept what women want. There is as much work to do on women than there is on men.
Final point: the answer cannot be a negative one. It cannot be “don’t be a dick”. Because after metoo most reasonable men understand that. The question is, if we’re not to be dicks, what will we be? And I’m talking about seduction and romantic relationships here. The question the far right is answering. The question that matter when it comes to men and women relationships. Because no one cares if you want to be an astronaut or a fireman.
You only answered one sentence in my whole comment and ignored the meaning of everything else. That’s what I mean. You even started with saying that I was sidetracking the conversation when I was actually refocusing it.
If you want to make this an actual discussion, write your point instead of making it a quote ping pong.
Populism works since Caesar, and there wasn’t Internet back then… Napoléon? Hitler and Mussolini? Do you know how it went in antic democratic Athen? Populism goes with democracy. Internet has nothing to do with it.
The society is more complex than ever? I read it at least twice: in a XVth century book, and in an antiquity one.
But this is beside the subject. You’ve said nothing here to explain why the reactionaries (the alt right, the far right, populism) are benefiting from this more than the left. Are you saying that the left can’t win? Are you saying that we should shut down Internet?
You need to go farther in your analysis. There always were political forces opposing each other. The progressists were wining for women until recently. Why is it changing when young are so much more informed and educated than people were 50 years ago?
What is this argument? I’m trying to understand. Here you’re not giving an argument though, merely an analysis. You don’t say anything about what’s possible about the problem. Except maybe explaining more and better then?
Men have nothing to win out of the Conservative ideology btw. It’s very harmful to them. Both physically and psychologically. But people don’t choose an ideology after a cost/benefit analysis anyway.
I understand this very well, but that’s not my question. This is in fact irrelevant to the subject here. I’m not asking you about the rights minorities should get. I’m asking you about the cis-heterosexual men and women.
I’m not asking about theoretical or abstract things. I’m asking a simple question.
If your answer is that it is too complex, then you now know what the problem is. And that’s exactly the problem I’m referring to.
If you can’t understand that, then the problem doesn’t come from the people who don’t understand your complex theories.
Thank you for proving my point: I ask a simple question, and you hide behind arrogance and disdain, abandoning me with no answer. This is precisely what I was saying.
You are twisting my words. I understand what you’re saying. But you refuse to understand what I am saying. Just because I don’t say “yes you are right and I am wrong” doesn’t mean I don’t understand you. You’re repeating yourself since the beginning.
But the best: you repeat ad nauseam how the solutions exist but are complex, yet you refuse to even try to give the beginning of one to the question I ask. With all the messages spent repeating how complex it is, you could at least have the beginning of something tangible.
To their credit, population growth was unimaginable before it happened. A novel of aasimov from the 60s mention a future earth overpopulated with magacities of 20 million people and earth population of 2 billion.
Medicine and agriculture progresses were tremendous.
Loneliness seems more connected to late stage capitalism to me. Individualism has been pushed too far. The quest for a glorified independancy and the monetizatization of everything is destroying social links. There are many other things that capitalist culture favor, and they’re all as damaging to socialisation and society.
That’s irrelevant to the question here. Here the question is how would people live their lives depending on the variation of the UBI. They still pay taxes. It’s no different than government money.
The question you are asking is where the money will come from. Or how will the government finance this. It’s not a difficult question to solve, except for liberals who hate taxes more than anything else on earth.
That’s not what rigged means. And either you didn’t understand the selection process or you don’t want to understand it because you are against the idea of the UBI
Your analysis is rigged just as much. It was not a rigged study, it was asking a specific question, because that’s how research work.
Would you prefer it if they specifically selected drug addict and long term unemployed people? But what would that experiment show? Absolutely nothing, unless you happen to not know yet what drugg addiction or depression do to people.
When you say it was rigged, you demonstrate that you don’t understand the question that was tested in the experiment.
So, I learned in physics class at school in the UK that the value of acceleration due to gravity is a constant called g and that it was 9.81m/s^2. I knew that this value is not a true constant as it is affected by terrain and location. However I didn’t know that it can be so significantly different as to be 9.776 m/s^2 in...
Well, g is not a real constant, it depends mostly on altitude. The true constant is G. g=9.8 is usually more than enough for your calculations, to the point we often round it to 10 for simplicity, or you remove it completely is the mass is too low. But actual numbers is only the very last step usually. The calculations will be made with letters. The value you use at the end for g depends on the precision you need, so it depends on the precision of the other parameters.
No one cares about retail office market. A market bubble crashing is merely an opportunity to earn money for the others. Capitalism doesn’t care about losers.
Oh the invaluable people do get fired. The problem is that the company never replace them, because they can’t be replaced.
Their value is not in how smart or skilled they are but in how much they know of their work in the company. Most of this work is not documented and it can take a decade to build this knowledge.
These people are key elements of the functioning of the company. You lose months of productivity each year simply because they’re not there, and you might even lose years of work that’s now unmaintainable.
I don’t know, if companies are too arrogant to see that or if they’d rather have people who obey than a working company. I bet on the second though.
That’s a conspiracy theory. Most companies have no interest in keeping high housing market prices, because it increases the wages they pay to their workers and it increases the lease for their offices.
I have not seen any evidence of a ceo needing the office market to stay high. Some companies renting those building? Sure! But most ceo don’t care about those.
Managers though can’t adapt to remote working teams, and they must justify their use to the company. A ceo will also be very easy to convince that people won’t work if they’re left alone at home, eventhough all studies prove the opposite. There is a toxic culture within the management and directors that workers won’t work if they aren’t under a leash.
I’m skeptical a company would take that. They want to be able to shut down contracts with employee on a whim but somehow they would engage for a 20 years in a building? If it’s not a big industry I severely doubt it, and those are rarely I city centers for obvious reasons.
The conclusion sums it up very well: men are out of the old men box, but there’s no model for them for the men of the new world, which leave them helpless yet more conscious than ever about their body and the questions of masculinity.
That’s the difference between you and a company. You need a building to live. A company needs its employee to work in order to live.
The building is an expense that was budgeted. When it’s bought or leased, it’s paid. The money is already lost. What’s left is the money you win. If the employee are already there, you still earn the money.
What the company doesn’t pay is the energy, food, cleaning etc. Actually it’s now the employee who are paying that.
For a company, the building is more comparable to a printer for you. Once you bought the printer, the money is lost. If you stop using it, you don’t lose more money.
A family is not a company. Nor is a government by the way. These comparison are wrong but also usually dangerous, because they hint at extremely bad interpretations and decisions.
I don’t buy this narrative. While it may very well be true that real estate is going down and ruining some companies and people, which makes me very happy, I doubt this is the reason why companies are pushing people to office.
IMO they’re simply dumb controle freaks. When people are at the office, they can push their propaganda of corporate culture in the hope that some workers will buy it a become some kind of ambassador for their twisted model.
There probably is also the same stupid generalisation that made open space a generality: some idiot with way too much power prefered to work this way, and thus he assumed everyone would. It was turned into company policy, and because this company earned some money this year it turned into a fashion for all companies.
Friends and family are the best, or at least the first therapist you should see. An actual therapist is required when the other two failed. That’s how a sane family or group of friends should work at least.
The problem is not about you. It’s about your ability to accept another man who wants a “female” friendship. And apparently you don’t want any of that, which makes you part of the problem.
Why men feel like they can't abandon Masculinity
This discussion was inspired by discussion on this post....
Was it a good thing that SNW explicitly said the Federation is socialist?
In case you don't know, they explicitly use the term socialist to describe the Federation economy in SNW. I was wondering if ppl liked or hated it? I like it personally since it's not a dodge like "new world economy"
AI ‘Aggro-rithms’ target boys with harmful content within 60s ( www.vodafone.co.uk )
Andrew Tate is a symptom, not the problem’: why young men are turning against feminism ( www.theguardian.com )
Despite the triggering headline, this is a pretty good article that talks about how younger men are falling for this horseshit
xkcd #2889: Greenhouse Effect ( imgs.xkcd.com )
xkcd.com/2889/...
Men are turning to OnlyFans for emotional connection — and experts are split over its impact on loneliness ( www.businessinsider.com )
Paywall Removed
Young voters explain why they’re bailing on Biden, and whether they’d come back ( www.nbcnews.com )
The first results from the world’s biggest basic income experiment in Kenya are in - Vox ( www.vox.com )
Does everyone learn the same gravity in school or is it different everywhere?
So, I learned in physics class at school in the UK that the value of acceleration due to gravity is a constant called g and that it was 9.81m/s^2. I knew that this value is not a true constant as it is affected by terrain and location. However I didn’t know that it can be so significantly different as to be 9.776 m/s^2 in...
Companies lower salaries in job postings as pay transparency laws take effect ( www.cnbc.com )
The reason CEOs want workers to Return To Office is because they want you to quit ( www.fastcompany.com )
Wear pink but don’t cry - "Men under 25 are less likely than their elders to feel comfortable hugging another man or weeping in front of them. What happened?" ( www.thetimes.co.uk )
Paywall Removed
Return-to-office orders look like a way for elite, work-obsessed CEOs to grab power back from employees ( www.businessinsider.com )
White-collar workers temporarily enjoyed unprecedented power during the pandemic to decide where and how they worked.
Landlords should have to pay income tax on their rental properties regardless of whether they're rented out or not. ( gothamist.com )
cross-posted from: lemmy.crimedad.work/post/12162...
The Elite's War on Remote Work Has Nothing to Do with Productivity ( www.okdoomer.io )
I'm a trans man. I didn't realize how broken men are ( newsweek.com )