Depends what you mean by stoicism, but i think worrying about the things you can control and letting go of the things you can’t (and being able to tell the difference) is important in anyones life, not exclusively masculinity
I want to respond to this but I’m on mobile. I’ll say this here to remind me at home when I have my full keyboard
kk. Home!
What drew me to Stoicism was it’s emphasis on emotional self-reliance. I’m just gonna say straight up: I think this was bad.
We’re more connected in the modern day in every way except emotionally. Stoicism was attractive to me because it allowed my anti-social teenage/twenty-year old self to be aloof, to feel like not engaging in society was the cultivation and practice of virtue.
To the extent that Stoicism is used that way today, then I don’t think it should have any role in modern masculinity.
Instead, I believe men need to be much, much more emotionally available. And to the extent that Stoicism helps men cope with our fear of failure in socializing, helps cope with the stress of socialization, I think that’s where it has the best role.
Because I’m still aloof, but that’s because I’m scared of being rejected. And, in my personal anthology, I have the ever-useful quote:
Men are disturbed not by things, but by the views which they take of things.
And it helps when I’m like, “Fuck it…let’s go see what happens” and I go talk with people, usually at work where I have to talk to people anyway. And I connect with people and it’s rejuvenating in a sense.
So, I think Stoicism’s role is in helping the modern man being a more emotionally connected man and helping us navigate the difficulty of that endeavor.
I’ve never fully embraced stoicism because of all the toxicity which comes with it, but I don’t think there’s nothing intrinsically bad into just wanting to be emotionally self reliant. Being stoic SHOULDN’T mean suppressing your feelings, but being enough emotionally mature to not succumb
At least in Germany, especially here in the eastern part where right-wing radicalisation is very prevalent, the lack of adequate street-work (in this sense) and youth centres offers is discussed as a contributing factor. More generally/systemically, I’ve seen arguments that the sudden and wholesale disappearance of previous social structures that engaged youth[1] left the space open for neo-Nazi groups to basically be “the people who are there, who give us something to do and a reason to do it”.
As to what that kind of street-work looks like, even if not offered at nearly enough capacity, here’s an example. It ranges from organising leisure activities to helping kids who have trouble with the law - so that neo-nazis aren’t the ones who are the first to offer their help and win their trust.
[1]: Such as the Protestant Church and the state-controlled youth organisation of the GDR - reminder: what was previously keeping kids engaged doesn’t have to necessarily be good. Something bad can be replaced by something also bad. The point is to replace it by something good.
Pretty much this. I would like to avoid a bunch of posts with little engagement if possible.
I understand that that’s hard with smaller spaces but a bunch of posts with 0 comments is usually a turnoff when I look at a community. Kind of raises the sketchy incel/alt-right feeder community vibe in my mind.
I like the idea of this community I never really saw one on reddit nore did I really seek one out. Honestly current events even with trolls would be fine if it could be kept respectful. They usually just make a fool of themselves or ratioed.
The biggest factor here is that I am currently still the only poster and am trying to get a vibe for what kind of content is appropriate here. The firehose of content will have to die down eventually because I will run out of content from my current sources.
I think it is getting better. I have a "Boys Get Sad Too" hoodie (recommend them wholeheartedly) and so far I have gotten only positive comments, even from people where you might not have expected it.
As a trans woman who grew up being taught boys don’t cry, it’s taken me the better part of 6 years to learn how to connect with my emotions healthily. I’m so sorry that society treats y’all like this. 💜
I basically had suppressed my emotions my whole life. Since puberty I could count on one hand with fingers to spare the number of times I legit cried before transition and it was usually something like death of a pet or family member.
Some of thst was from running on the wrong hormones, but plenty of cis men are able feel emotional on T. A lot was being scared of showing I had emotion.
I've faired better as I'm not 2 years into transition and already feel like a different person.
The fact that being stoic, emotionless or even cold is seen as a trait of masculinity is incredibly frustrating. I feel men should be encouraged to be passionate and expressive with their emotions. Anger shouldn't be the only one we encourage as a society. Have you ever seen a man glow up about his lego collection, or cry at a beautiful scene in a movie they love? More of that please.
Also, men are just as deserving of support networks as anyone else. Though we all experience life differently, we are all human in the end.
The fact that people took Stoicism, a philosophy that’s basically cognitive behavioral therapy for emotional awareness, and twisted it to mean “stiff upper lip” or “repress everything lest you seem weak” is depressing as hell.
It’s one of the reasons I’ve taken a liking to Diogenes’ Cynicism, seeing past the “social norms” and dumb social organization ideas humans come up with.
This is so true. I think for a lot of us this advice (or often command) was most frequently heard in these exact words during adolescence. That said this sentiment can at times feel very present.
In my experience it’s gotten better amongst men. Men telling each other to “man up” has largely died, and they are much better at supporting each other. A lot have gotten much better at recognizing when to ask for help too.
However, I think there are a lot of men in relationships under pressure to always be the rock, the protector and provider. They’re not allowed to have a problem or a weakness. I mean it’s a great way to flush out awful candidate partners. Show a little vulnerability and see how disinterested they get, but it gets tiresome.
This is great context. Particularly as it highlights the differences in gendered experiences. For women it’s in some ways a demand for attractiveness while for men it’s more of a literal command that is more likely to be used in self policing (that is men policing masculine expectations of other men). Also notable that both sentiments seem to be more likely to come from men.
As someone who presents masculine, I have gotten the "be a man" treatment from women several times. Ultimately it does come from a patriarchal standard of society, but its something that is perpetuated by everyone, consciously or otherwise. Not discounting what you are saying, but I think it's important to highlight that toxic masculinity can come from anywhere.
When I see a gay men acting up like the stereotypical gay, I feel like they are acting it up in the same way when I see a very macho hetero man, or a very stereotypical feminine women. I don’t feel like they are genuine, it almost feel scripted to me. Could it be that it feels more genuine to them ? I’m projecting my bias here obviously.
I’m not sure how common my own experience is, but I’ve lost most of my friends from group toxicity. Not to have a messiah complex, but the whole reason my “friends” hung out for years was because of me and my parties. I stopped having parties and we were still just as close. As soon as I settled down with someone out side of the group, a few of them started causing problems to the point that I disassociated from the group.
Last year my wife and I went to a BBQ (that I had to be persuaded to go to by my wife, who took the brunt of the bullying) where they apologized for how they treated us. We thought everything was good. It came to light that we were not invited to their big get together this year. Then it was clear they were purposely excluding us from a ton of things. No one wished me a happy birthday, though they knew when it was, and my “best” friend regularly travels a hundred miles to another friend’s house that is 10 miles away, but I haven’t seen him since his birthday, which I traveled a hundred miles away for.
It’s sad feeling the bridges are burned, but I would much rather spend time with my family than the friends that justify hurting my family.
True male friendship is paradoxical, in that it is intimate without intimacy. Men neither touch each other physically nor discuss anything directly – what is said out loud is trivial and everything important is unspoken. If a subtext is identified, it’s quickly ignored before moving on, since no man wants to turn a subtext into an actual text over a few beers.
Is that true male friendship, though? Taking that flaky relationship and labeling it true friendship might be a contributing factor to see them not surviving the many ebbs and flows of life. My best friendships, the ones that are alive and well, are exactly NOT like that.
If you no longer need an audience, then why hang out with them?
Oof, I hope you don’t really believe that. Aside from “attention” that you get with friends, you should also get compassion, empathy, and love. And sometimes it’s just nice to have companionship.
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