Discussion about „the Left has failed men“ ( youtu.be )

I watched a video today talking about common talking points concerning how „the left has failed men“

I would argue F.D argues that while this is often cited as a critique on how „the Left“ is losing young men to right grifters like Tate, Peterson, etc.

He eventually argues that these misogynistic forces are not new and have only been thriving because of economic problems (capitalism yaaay) faced in the present.

As I really like this community I thought I give it a shot to post something. If I should try to give a broader summary of the video please feel free to tell me.

Thanks for reading :)

peanutbutterjams ,

The Left has failed in men insofar as it sanctions (and even encourages) hate towards men.

Boys grow up seeing acceptable misandry every day on their social media. They’re implicitly taught to think less of themselves simply for being male on their feeds - and that’s on top of the age-old societal message that men are disposable, their pain is ignorable, and that they are always replaceable.

So it’s not just the Left, no, but the wing that is supposed to challenge the status quo, that is supposed to represent progress and justice, shouldn’t be the wing that’s preaches it’s okay to hate men, to be contemptuous of men, or to demonize men.

gapbetweenus ,

The left has failed conservative men who search for simple answers and like clear rules and hierarchies. But I’m not sure what left can offer them in the first place.

Hacksaw ,

No, the right is pulling boys and young men because they’re the only ones that acknowledge that these boys are not thriving in modern society. The left still generally still thinks that young middle class and working class boys and men are prospering from the patriarchy and late stage capitalism. This hasn’t been true for at least a few decades now.

Ironically patriarchy and right wing libertarianism is to blame for most of the problems of these young men so all we need to do is acknowledge their suffering and point them to the obvious socialist and left wing solutions to their problems.

gapbetweenus ,

There are enough solutions from the left, you say it yourself. People who don’t see them - don’t want to see them.

Hacksaw , (edited )

These are mostly kids. Almost all are younger than 25, their brains are not fine developing. They just know they feel bad and they look to the simplest most enticing, path of least resistance to feel good.

Leftist ideology is complex and nuanced, but contains REAL solutions. Right wing rhetoric is simple but for most people it’s all empty promises and grifts. We do a great job creating accessible rhetoric for women, minorities, and LGBT+ persons and because of this these groups join in droves and obtain real improvement in their lives. We don’t do a great job of tailoring rhetoric to address the moden problems of young boys that the patriarchy creates.

That’s pretty much all I’m saying. I have a hard time understanding what there is to disagree with. I think you should look inside and think about what I said that you don’t like and why. Maybe you have something to learn or work through.

gapbetweenus ,

That’s pretty much all I’m saying. I have a hard time understanding what there is to disagree with. I think you should look inside and think about what I said that you don’t like and why. Maybe you have something to learn or work through.

Projecting much?

But I entertain your thought - what problems are boys facing that is not addressed by modern leftist ideology? And if you need it dumbed down and entertaining - there will be a youtube video about it.

But like you said yourself, if you are looking for “simplest most enticing, path of least resistance to feel good” - than obviously you will land with populist and snake oil sellers.

Hacksaw , (edited )

If you’re going do entertain my thought I’ll do yours!

I have one question from your assessment.

I feel like everyone wants the path of least resistance to feel good, and doesn’t look too hard unless they make politics and ideology an important part of their lives. I also think the right is trying to capture all demographics with snake oil populism. Why are they winning with young boys and not with young women, lesbians and gays (I almost added the BT+ but trying to wipe them out of existence slows recruitment drives I think), or minorities. I think it’s easy to say because they hate women and minorities but a lot of older women and minorities are strong right wingers. Are young boys are particularly wired to want snake oil compared to everyone else?

gapbetweenus , (edited )

I think conservatives openly hating on women, LGBT+ and minorities might be indeed a reason why they are not as popular as with majority male young population. Not sure why you dismiss that argument. Young man, rich folks and just conservatives are the target demographic. But for a rebellious young teen boy (from my experience) it’s toss up if he wants to be edgy as left or as right. Maybe right has a slight edge right now since mainstream media became extremely fake left leaning - so maybe if I was a teen right now, I myself would lean more to the right.

So your turn: what problems are boys facing that are not addressed somewhere in the left sphere?

Hacksaw ,

In another comment in this thread I list some of the specific problems of boys and young men with good leftist solutions.

Sure young men join the left. I wouldn’t dismiss this as “edgyness” as I said their brains aren’t fully developed and that’s just how they express themselves at that stage of development. But then they’re generally recruited as “allies” rather than as champions of their own leftist causes.

We definitely haven’t captured enough leftist men and pointed them to fight their own fights. That’s the whole concept of the left. Everyone fights the patriarchy in the ways they need, and we help eachother’s causes as allies. Only in all of our efforts combined do we destroy the structures that harm us all. What keeps a demographic here imo is having their own fights to fight. I think that’s what’s not addressed, the pipeline to channel curious dejected young boys and point them to their own leftist struggles while learning about the struggles of others isn’t as well developed as other pipelines. I think this is because it’s only in the last few decades that the left has had more to offer than the right for this demographic. To me that’s a call to work on the pipeline not to shrug and dismiss the situation.

Also I think you dismiss too quickly what the right has to offer women and minorities. Yes they openly hate them, but they offer them their own hierarchies under which to hate and control others. That’s why the right is so attractive to minorities such as immigrants who are used to thriving in the privileges offered to them in these structures. That’s why it’s so attractive to many older women who want power in local community social and political spheres. Although this is how their participation looks like in these structures, they usually see it as “improving societal norms” and “preventing moral decay and corruption of the youth”. This is important because people need to feel like the good guys. I’m not saying these people are better off under the right. I think EVERYONE is better off with the left. But there is a lack of understanding of what the right has to offer and why it’s attractive to people. It’s easier to tailor our message when we empathize with people and cater the message based on that.

Edit: I would also add being good allies to young men and boys fighting the leftist fight. Sometimes we tend to fear that helping them means somehow there will be less for everyone else, but it’s not a zero sum game. We destroy the patriarchy by dismantling it where it hurts us and by being a good ally to all of those who seek to dismantle it where it hurts them.

gapbetweenus ,

In another comment in this thread I list some of the specific problems of boys and young men with good leftist solutions.

If you don’t engage with what I write, than there is little point in this conversation for me.

That’s the whole concept of the left. Everyone fights the patriarchy in the ways they need,

Just want to point out, you confuse leftism and feminism and you spend to much time debatelording online, afk most people just want to live their life and not fight the system.

Hacksaw ,

My comment was too long as is. There are like 20 comments in this thread I didn’t think I was asking for a lot to point you to a list.

I got to “the patriarchy” through leftism not feminism. When I say patriarchy I mean hierarchal structures of oppression. I spent a long time working against hierarchal structures and thinking before I realized that when feminists say “the patriarchy” they refer specifically to the primary hierarchal structure of oppression that has been operating for the last few centuries in the western world and in other parts. Since it’s more specific and precise than “the primary hierarchal structure of oppression that has been operating for the last few centuries in the western world and in other parts” I use it. It also helps me understand and connect to feminism better. I find as a man, it’s easy to feel alienated with certain rhetoric lately so this helps counter that.

I feel like I responded directly to your question though:

  • We don’t have a good pipeline for young men to get from curious to fighting for their rights through leftism
  • We’re not good allies to young men who fight for leftist ideology.

You’re right in your final point, most people just want to live their lives. When we show them the things that help them are on the left they’ll vote left. The ones who want to fight will be the ones fighting.

gapbetweenus ,

No you still didn’t answer what aspects for young men, the left does not cover?

Also do you have any real life experience with leftist spaces? I happen to work with visuals and so I’m involved in with the alternative scene quite a bit. Never been alienated as a dude or see other guys being alienated for being a man. There is also no shortage of guys there.

Hacksaw ,

Kudos to you for contributing! No, I’ve never felt out of place in leftist spaces, but I know many young men are alienated by what they see of “loud” leftist ideology, lack of support online etc…

As for “aspects” I believe ideologically the left has the best answers for men. I think it’s more the logistical aspects I described in previous posts we don’t cover well/enough.

gapbetweenus ,

the right is pulling boys and young men because they’re the only ones that acknowledge that these boys are not thriving in modern society.

So how does the left has the answers for men despite not even asking the questions?

but I know many young men are alienated by what they see of “loud” leftist ideology, lack of support online etc…

Or maybe of what they see, by how right wing is portraying the leftist ideology? Lack of support online, what do you even mean?

spaduf Mod ,
@spaduf@slrpnk.net avatar

I would caution folks against commenting before watching the video. It is vital to the health of the community to make sure that we are building on the work posted and not uncritically rehashing the same reactionary ideas endlessly.

Tired8281 ,

I’m never going to watch the video. It’s not a good time right now, and I don’t think there will be a better time where I will be interested, because I disagree with the little information I have about it. A better description would help.

valentinesmith OP ,

But maybe it’s also kind of my fault for not giving a better overview but I think I have learnt something for the next post.

Thank you for mentioning it :)

cybermass ,

It also doesn’t help that there’s a portion of feminists who are super extreme and basically just use feminism as a cover for man hating, which tends to push away young boys from real feminism.

I think there are a lot of layers to it tbh, the right promises young boys all of these things (that are bullshit) and tells them they are #1 and they matter most while in general left people tend to say that men (even moreso cis white men) are the problem, which tends to alienate those people.

As a very left leaning cis white male it does feel extremely lonely, I am very depressed and never feel like my feelings are valid. I can’t point to a boogeyman and say “that’s the reason my life sucks” cause I’m the boogeyman and the only reason my life sucks is because I suck.

It’s right wing option is just earlier mentally for boys to handle.

cmbabul ,

The upper classes are the boogeyman that made everyones life suck to varying degrees using the made up subdivisions they’ve designed to keep themselves in control. Blame those at the very top of the hierarchy, you may be higher up on it than others in more marginalized groups but unless you’re worth billions you still aint close to the top

Akasazh ,
@Akasazh@feddit.nl avatar

I am very depressed and never feel like my feelings are valid. I can’t point to a boogeyman and say “that’s the reason my life sucks” cause I’m the boogeyman and the only reason my life sucks is because I suck.

At least that’s the better attitude. If you are depressed and you cope by hating on whatever minority you get told to hate, it won’t really cure your depression.

The only thing that helps is learning to love yourself and doing things, however small, to love yourself a bit more. It’s very hard to do, and it wont reward you as instantaneously as drugs or cash. I hope you find that and wish you luck.

Alas the internet thrives on rage funneling. Hard to avoid, but very toxic. There’s also an extreme left flavor of funnel, though.

cybermass ,

Thank you for the kind words, I’m working on it

Anything is better than hating someone else for no reason, I’ve got enough hate in my heart as is, and one of the best ways to make me (and most people) feel better is to spread love.

Akasazh ,
@Akasazh@feddit.nl avatar

GL bro, I know how hard it is, so keep on keeping on, you hear? Baby steps

valentinesmith OP ,

As @akasazh says baby steps for sure and you got this!

I would argue however that there is a boogeyman that you can blame and that is capitalism, so there is always that.

Additionally as you have yourself mentioned just because we live in a partiachial society that doesn’t mean that cis white men are always just winners, so I think the feeling of being overwhelmed and on your own and downtrodden by the system can be totally valid. Similarly to what @cmbabul mentioned, sure you can be a little bit more up the ladder but we are most likely all quite far away from the top :)

I hope that you feel empowered to reach out to others and connect. I am sure others share your sentiment. I think Lemmy has DMs so if you ever wanna just chat feel free to write me :)

Thank you for sharing!

Hacksaw ,

First, man hating feminists aren’t feminists, they’re just assholes who use acceptable rhetoric (feminism) as a cover for spreading hate and bigotry. Feminism is about equality and taking down patriarchal systems that harm everyone. Although it is female centric and tends to deal with aspects of the patriarchy that affect women and gender minorities. Feminism is VERY effective, and we’re now in a situation where the harmful effects on men of patriarchal ideology are becoming more and more obvious. I believe men’s lib is a GREAT banner for men to take down the patriarchy where they’re the most affected. Working with feminism, LGBT+ and anti-racism we can ensure all harmful aspects of patriarchy are dismantled.

Second you’re not To blame. You’re not the patriarchy and you’re certainly being hurt by it in meaningful ways. If you’re not reinforcing the patriarchal systems that are harming you, you had nothing to do with the pain you feel.

You do have places to point the finger. The patriarchy and right wing ideology harms young men. Fiscal conservatives who gut education budgets, and force a focus on STEM at the expense of physical education, cooperative group sports, and recess time. Librarian educators who put all the physical activity budget into competitive sports so that “the strong rise and the weak perish”. Pearl clutching conservatives who accuse male teachers of homosexuality, grooming, and pedophilia when they try to connect with students or introduce acceptance of LGBT+ ideology ruining the careers of male teachers and robbing boys of positive role models. Men and women who spread toxic masculinity and ridicule young boys who express their feelings or emotional needs. I could go on to show the ways right wing ideology robs boys and young men of their life satisfaction and societal prospects.

Therapy is great for personal growth. For growth within your friend group and family, you can also start looking at how toxic masculinity and regressive gender norms harm you and those around you. Most young men and women parrot these views but don’t understand them. Occasional calm, polite, assertive explanations about the ideology they’re spreading is enough for most people to realise what they’re doing. You can improve your friend group over time, as well as help you encourage good supportive friendships and trim harmful ones. That will also help your emotional and mental well-being.

Pointy_Dorito ,

Just want to say, the fact that the right capitalizes on those topics makes me automatically cautious when I come across those discussions. Even reading through this community, I had to be defensive about getting hooked into something that is good on the surface but not so much underneath. My point is, its hard to talk about these topics now that its essentially associated with the manipulation tactics used by those influencers. Not sure how we can reclaim the positive while separating it from the negative.

spaduf Mod , (edited )
@spaduf@slrpnk.net avatar

Always love to see FD Signifier here. Overall solid takes on where things stand with a fair amount of historical context that is easily forgotten. The survey discussed early in the video has actually come up here before. Previous discussion can be found here

valentinesmith OP ,

Uh thanks for linking it! I hadn’t seen the discussion!

I also liked the historical contexts :)

VampyreOfNazareth ,

Men are expected to go to war and be non-violent, and to support peoples causes that attack them daily.

Can_you_change_your_username ,

It's not so much the contradictory expectations that bother me, it's how success and failure are framed in modern society. The messaging is that for cis white men success should be externalized and failure should be internalized while for everyone not cis white and male it's the opposite. The messaging is that the system is built for the benefit of cis white men so when they succeed it's because the system pushed them to success and when they fail they do so in spite of the system pushing them to succeed so their failures are do to some particular flaw within themselves. The system is built for the benefit of cis white men so when someone who isn't cis white and male succeeds they do so despite the system pushing them to fail so the success is because of some special strength within themselves and when they fail it's because the system pushed them to failure.

There is truth to the premise that the system is built for the benefit of cis white men but the system doesn't push cis white men to succeed, especially not poor and working class men. It does give cis white men advantages but it does so primarily by creating additional barriers for people who aren't cis white and male. Your parents economic status is the most reliable indicator for success.

valentinesmith OP ,

Yeah I concur.

In general as you have said I think it’s wild that we try to individualise success and failures so much when the economic position of our parents is the most reliable predictor for success.

Thanks for sharing, I haven’t thought about this perspective in a long time!

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