Star Trek and The Orville, which is better/worse?

I asked this question sometime ago on The Orville’s subreddit, and surprisingly got mixed responses. I assume most here however, are going to prefer Star Trek, specifically TNG that its aping from. For the record I do prefer TNG as well, but rewatching The Orville, after you get past its kinda sucky first season, I really enjoyed the show and feel it’s a very good successor to TNG just with added humor and levity which I think is a good thing. And there are elements I find better in The Orville. And now that Lower Decks is back (a show I’m now a fan of after dismissing it for so long), I felt the need to return to The Orville and see if I still liked it. I’m really hoping it at least gets a fourth season. Anyway, what do you guys think?

Sabakodgo ,
@Sabakodgo@lemmy.fmhy.net avatar

The Orville’s first season was a bit of a mess. It tried to be a comedy, but it also had some very serious moments. The second season was much better, as it focused more on the serious stories. However, the show still needs to improve its dialogue. Which I really like in Star Trek.

startrekexplained OP ,

I debated with myself if I preferred the Star Trek humans vs The Orville humans, and in the end I do prefer the more serious dialogue of Star Trek

buckykat ,

The first season being a bit of a mess is classic Trek behavior to be fair. I think the comedy angle was mostly a way to trick Fox into running it.

startrekexplained OP ,

For sure it was just to get it greenlit. After the Identity two parter proved it did well with drama, they shifted

buckykat ,

As early as episode 3 they were trying to do serious storylines, and as early as episode 4 they were succeeding. I think it was always intended to be real Trek with the serial numbers filed off but sold to Fox and consequently advertised as a parody.

startrekexplained OP ,

I think they really found the right balance by the Identity two parter

buckykat ,

One thing I really like about the depiction of the Kaylon is that, as far as I remember, nobody ever suggests that they were wrong to kill their builders, only to generalize their hatred of those builders to all organics.

NuPNuA ,

I kind of feel like that’s how Seth had to get it past Fox and onto TV to begin with. He’s not known for making sci-fi, he’s known for making comedies.

Gbagginsthe3rd ,

I really enjoy The Orville, I like Star Trek.

I dunno if its the levity in The Orville but it just feels wholesome. The right balance between science, space and entertainment.

Both are my ideas of utopia. I think thats what draws me into each series separately

startrekexplained OP ,

The Orville does the utopia a bit better. For example no prisons in the future and the post scarcity, socialist no money utopia is ironically taken more seriously in The Orville than in Star Trek where it almost seemed embarrassed by it at times.

D61 ,

I fell away from watching Star Trek many MANY years ago, and am overwhelmed by all the Star Treks to the point that after watching the series with Scott Baccula I checked out.

The Orville, having way less … history… was much easier for me to get in to. Also, I was expecting it to be hot garbage and wound up really REALLY liking it.

Everybody deserves a papa Bortus. meow-knife-trans

b9chomps ,
@b9chomps@beehaw.org avatar

I enjoy the Orville quite a bit, but think they focus too much in Isaac. Bordus was featured heavily as well, but to a lesser extend. I would like to see them shift their focus.

I watched TNG pretty recently for the first time and enjoyed, but didn’t love it. It aged pretty well, but still aged.

startrekexplained OP ,

I admittedly worship TNG, but yes it def. has issues that haven’t aged as well. Like representation issues.

Jaytreeman ,

I watched TNG with my daughter. Every time there was a trans episode we felt a little cringe. Expecting a show from the early 90s to have horrible takes, but every time, they did well. Our cringe was misplaced

ProfezzorDarke ,

The TNG episode with the androgynous aliens was supposed to be a homosexuality allegory by the writer. They actually wanted to cast guys as the aliens, but the producers were afraid to have Ryker kiss a guy. It wasn’t supposed to be about transsexuality, and yet the author, without being in the LGBT scene or knowing what they did, probably wrote some of the best trans TV media of that timeI’m still positively surprised by TNG every time I rewatch it, knowing it’s from the end of the 70ies to the 90ies. Heck was it progressive.

maegul ,

Really enjoyed it after the first season and also hope it finds a way to a fourth season.

IMO, it “counts” as Trek, so strong is its respect and homage to the essence of Trek. As Trek-Sci-Fi it also did some things well and made its own contributions to the “Trek forum of ideas”. It tackled the “prime directive”, progressive issues around gender, went all the way with robot-organic romance, did a very Trek style take on AI war and I rather liked its take on a hyper technologically advanced species (the one that runs through time faster than our universe).

Somewhat more uncomfortably, it stood as an affirmation of what those of us who have struggled with Kurtzman era Trek what we were actually looking for and remembering as the Trek we loved, and a reminder that style of TV can still work well.

startrekexplained OP ,

IMO, it “counts” as Trek, so strong is its respect and homage to the essence of Trek. As Trek Sci-Fi it also did some things well and made its own contributions to the “Trek forum of ideas”. It tackled the “prime directive”, progressive issues around gender, went all the way with robot-organic romance, did a very Trek style take on AI war and I rather liked its take on a hyper technologically advanced species (the one that runs through time faster than our universe).

Very well said. There are elements of the Trek universe that The Orville IMO does better. The Prime Directive is one of them. And the show is much more bold on gender and queer rights issues, which Trek often ignored or at best just said “heres a LGBTQ character!” It almost feels like a distilled version of Star Trek.

Somewhat more uncomfortably, it stood as an affirmation of what those of us who have struggled with Kurtzman era Trek what we were actually looking for and remembering as the Trek we loved, and a reminder that style of TV can still work well.

Yeah I didn’t like Discovery at all and was disappointed in Picard, so The Orville filled that hole. Now that SNW and Lower Decks are out and are much better shows than DSC and PIC IMO, less so but I do still prefer The Orville even to them.

maegul ,

Yeah I didn’t like Discovery at all and was disappointed in Picard, so The Orville filled that hole. Now that SNW and Lower Decks are out and are much better shows than DSC and PIC IMO, less so but I do still prefer The Orville even to them.

Yea, in a way, that’s The Orville’s ultimate legacy … while Trek is being rebooted and prequeled and sequeled in the new-Trek era, The Orville is sitting there saying, hey, there’s still plenty of work to do in Trek’s original and essential “utopic adventure sci-fi morality play” space … it’s not as though we live in a utopia already, so how about we just keep on going with the original mission and not worry too much about milking the past and nostalgia for as much money as we can, TNG sure as hell didn’t do that.

And in the end, as I think about it now, The Orville is right, and probably stands as the best critique of new-Trek that we ever could have hoped for and which we most certainly do not deserve … just optimistic and progressive Trek … no critique necessary.

startrekexplained OP ,

Damn, very well said. The rejection of a utopian setting in NuTrek, even in shows like SNW which pays lip service to it, is a major turn off for me because Trek was always good as utopian sci fi. And yeah DS9 challenged it, but it didn’t outright reject it either. The new shows totally dismiss it, whereas here’s The Orville dialing it up to 11.

maegul ,

And yeah DS9 challenged it

I always thought DS9 simply asked what happens at the fringes. Is Kira the terrorist justified? What else are you supposed to do with Cardassians and shapeshifters? Can one “live with it”?

startrekexplained OP ,

Well it also tested the Federation by putting it on the breaking point with a galactic war. Which I approve of and think was very interesting, but it wasn’t saying things like replicators are made from recycled shit or that poverty still exists on Earth like NuTrek did.

Akuchimoya ,

It’s nice that “new” Trek wants to portray things like equality for LGBT people as a given; hopefully we can reach that one day. And I think it’s good that LGBT people can “see themselves” on the screen without having their queerness be the focus of the drama. People just want to live their lives, and they want to see other queer people just living their lives.

On the other hand, showing the struggle and making it the focus of the drama, as Orville does, is the thing that helps people understand and confront the issues themselves. The whole story around Topa is very strong. Societal misogyny. Klyden’s entire journey (his own sex reassignment, hiding it from Bortus, their separation, his rejection of Topa when she transitioned back, the family’s eventual reunion). Bortus’ struggle to make the right choice as a loving husband and father. Bortus having the choice taken away from him. Topa lacking female role models.

These kinds of things are still very real issues that a lot of people don’t think about unless presented to them on this way. These kinds of stories help people imagine how they might need to support their own children, families, and friends.

It’s not really possible to compare Star Trek vs Orville because Trek is an entire franchise (even now there are 4.5 shows) and Orville is just one. But if I had to say of the current shows, which one does society need the most for social progress, I’d actually say Orville.

maegul ,

which one does society need the most for social progress, I’d actually say Orville.

Yep, exactly! And this is why I think it’s rather justified to be hard on new-Trek. At some point, it isn’t doing the “true” legacy and potential of the franchise justice.

Like, is young Kirk and Scotty really “good Trek”, and so on.

toiletwhole ,
@toiletwhole@feddit.de avatar

I like them both :)

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