Star Trek and The Orville, which is better/worse?

I asked this question sometime ago on The Orville’s subreddit, and surprisingly got mixed responses. I assume most here however, are going to prefer Star Trek, specifically TNG that its aping from. For the record I do prefer TNG as well, but rewatching The Orville, after you get past its kinda sucky first season, I really enjoyed the show and feel it’s a very good successor to TNG just with added humor and levity which I think is a good thing. And there are elements I find better in The Orville. And now that Lower Decks is back (a show I’m now a fan of after dismissing it for so long), I felt the need to return to The Orville and see if I still liked it. I’m really hoping it at least gets a fourth season. Anyway, what do you guys think?

maegul ,

Really enjoyed it after the first season and also hope it finds a way to a fourth season.

IMO, it “counts” as Trek, so strong is its respect and homage to the essence of Trek. As Trek-Sci-Fi it also did some things well and made its own contributions to the “Trek forum of ideas”. It tackled the “prime directive”, progressive issues around gender, went all the way with robot-organic romance, did a very Trek style take on AI war and I rather liked its take on a hyper technologically advanced species (the one that runs through time faster than our universe).

Somewhat more uncomfortably, it stood as an affirmation of what those of us who have struggled with Kurtzman era Trek what we were actually looking for and remembering as the Trek we loved, and a reminder that style of TV can still work well.

startrekexplained OP ,

IMO, it “counts” as Trek, so strong is its respect and homage to the essence of Trek. As Trek Sci-Fi it also did some things well and made its own contributions to the “Trek forum of ideas”. It tackled the “prime directive”, progressive issues around gender, went all the way with robot-organic romance, did a very Trek style take on AI war and I rather liked its take on a hyper technologically advanced species (the one that runs through time faster than our universe).

Very well said. There are elements of the Trek universe that The Orville IMO does better. The Prime Directive is one of them. And the show is much more bold on gender and queer rights issues, which Trek often ignored or at best just said “heres a LGBTQ character!” It almost feels like a distilled version of Star Trek.

Somewhat more uncomfortably, it stood as an affirmation of what those of us who have struggled with Kurtzman era Trek what we were actually looking for and remembering as the Trek we loved, and a reminder that style of TV can still work well.

Yeah I didn’t like Discovery at all and was disappointed in Picard, so The Orville filled that hole. Now that SNW and Lower Decks are out and are much better shows than DSC and PIC IMO, less so but I do still prefer The Orville even to them.

maegul ,

Yeah I didn’t like Discovery at all and was disappointed in Picard, so The Orville filled that hole. Now that SNW and Lower Decks are out and are much better shows than DSC and PIC IMO, less so but I do still prefer The Orville even to them.

Yea, in a way, that’s The Orville’s ultimate legacy … while Trek is being rebooted and prequeled and sequeled in the new-Trek era, The Orville is sitting there saying, hey, there’s still plenty of work to do in Trek’s original and essential “utopic adventure sci-fi morality play” space … it’s not as though we live in a utopia already, so how about we just keep on going with the original mission and not worry too much about milking the past and nostalgia for as much money as we can, TNG sure as hell didn’t do that.

And in the end, as I think about it now, The Orville is right, and probably stands as the best critique of new-Trek that we ever could have hoped for and which we most certainly do not deserve … just optimistic and progressive Trek … no critique necessary.

startrekexplained OP ,

Damn, very well said. The rejection of a utopian setting in NuTrek, even in shows like SNW which pays lip service to it, is a major turn off for me because Trek was always good as utopian sci fi. And yeah DS9 challenged it, but it didn’t outright reject it either. The new shows totally dismiss it, whereas here’s The Orville dialing it up to 11.

maegul ,

And yeah DS9 challenged it

I always thought DS9 simply asked what happens at the fringes. Is Kira the terrorist justified? What else are you supposed to do with Cardassians and shapeshifters? Can one “live with it”?

startrekexplained OP ,

Well it also tested the Federation by putting it on the breaking point with a galactic war. Which I approve of and think was very interesting, but it wasn’t saying things like replicators are made from recycled shit or that poverty still exists on Earth like NuTrek did.

Akuchimoya ,

It’s nice that “new” Trek wants to portray things like equality for LGBT people as a given; hopefully we can reach that one day. And I think it’s good that LGBT people can “see themselves” on the screen without having their queerness be the focus of the drama. People just want to live their lives, and they want to see other queer people just living their lives.

On the other hand, showing the struggle and making it the focus of the drama, as Orville does, is the thing that helps people understand and confront the issues themselves. The whole story around Topa is very strong. Societal misogyny. Klyden’s entire journey (his own sex reassignment, hiding it from Bortus, their separation, his rejection of Topa when she transitioned back, the family’s eventual reunion). Bortus’ struggle to make the right choice as a loving husband and father. Bortus having the choice taken away from him. Topa lacking female role models.

These kinds of things are still very real issues that a lot of people don’t think about unless presented to them on this way. These kinds of stories help people imagine how they might need to support their own children, families, and friends.

It’s not really possible to compare Star Trek vs Orville because Trek is an entire franchise (even now there are 4.5 shows) and Orville is just one. But if I had to say of the current shows, which one does society need the most for social progress, I’d actually say Orville.

maegul ,

which one does society need the most for social progress, I’d actually say Orville.

Yep, exactly! And this is why I think it’s rather justified to be hard on new-Trek. At some point, it isn’t doing the “true” legacy and potential of the franchise justice.

Like, is young Kirk and Scotty really “good Trek”, and so on.

toiletwhole ,
@toiletwhole@feddit.de avatar

I like them both :)

PunchingBag , (edited )

Just giving my opinion, but I did not care for the Orville. I’m a big fan of wonderment and adventure in Star Trek, with a healthy dose of exploration and philosophical consideration. In my experience, Orville spent all of its time on trying to be Star Trek: The Snark Generation and trying to make Seth MacFarlane look like a cool space captain. I think around the third or fourth time MacFarlane had said something incredibly offensive to the person he was meant to be diplomatically engaging with, but since he said it in his quick Family Guy aside voice it was apparently okay, that I got pretty tired of the show. It was way too much of a badly written ego trip for MacFarlane and not nearly enough science fiction fun. I was left feeling like the Orville was what would happen if Brian from Family Guy tried to write Star Trek, that it was more of mockery of science fiction than a positive addition, and I never went back.

In my further opinion, Lower Decks, meanwhile, is knocking it out of the park. I’ve heard a lot of good things about Strange Worlds as well, though I haven’t had opportunity to check it out yet.

EDIT: Yeah, I figured this would happen. Hooray the internet.

startrekexplained OP ,

Lower Decks is a mockery of sci fi and Star Trek though, I don’t pretend LD is otherwise.

PunchingBag ,

How so?

Gbagginsthe3rd ,

I really enjoy The Orville, I like Star Trek.

I dunno if its the levity in The Orville but it just feels wholesome. The right balance between science, space and entertainment.

Both are my ideas of utopia. I think thats what draws me into each series separately

startrekexplained OP ,

The Orville does the utopia a bit better. For example no prisons in the future and the post scarcity, socialist no money utopia is ironically taken more seriously in The Orville than in Star Trek where it almost seemed embarrassed by it at times.

EnsignRedshirt ,

The Orville is a deeply sincere homage made by someone who clearly both loves and understands Star Trek. It is, in many ways, more true to form than some of the recent Trek shows and movies, and it deserves to be considered an honorary part of the franchise. I hope we see more of it.

startrekexplained OP ,

Couldn’t have said it better myself. By the third season, I was like “yes this is honorary Star Trek”

AdmiralShat ,

I personally don’t understand the need to hold it as “vs” perspective. You can have both. The Orville definitely wanted to be TNG 2, and if that’s what you’re looking for, then by all means, have both.

startrekexplained OP ,

No need to be vs I agree, but people pit them against each other anyway so thought I’d ask. I like both to the extent I just include The Orville in my Star Trek lineup

fosforus ,

TNG 2 with Family Guy humor.

maegul ,

I feel like the Family Guy humour vibe tapered off pretty strongly after season 1 and by season 3 the show had definitely found itself in pretty squarely Star Trek like territory, which is par for the course for Star Trek really.

startrekexplained OP ,

Yeah the humor in season 1 turned me off and I wasn’t sure if I liked the show at first, it tapers off in season 2 and mostly evaporates in season 3, so those seasons were far better.

ProfezzorDarke ,

It’s not really family guy humour either. It’s Seth McFarlane though.

abbadon420 ,

Wait a sec… there’s 3 seasons?! Christmas came early this year!!

samus12345 ,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

Yup, on Hulu. I personally liked the 3rd season and am disappointed there might not be any more.

startrekexplained OP ,

The third season is the best one. Feels like a TNG season in a good way

NuPNuA ,

It was never as mean spirited as Family Guy. That type of edge-lord humour doesn’t play anymore. Even Rick and Morty has to temper it with some emotional moments.

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