Almost all remote-work news is negative now but was positive in the beginning of the pandemic. Have you noticed this or am I going crazy?

Earlier in the pandemic many news and magazine organizations would proudly write about how working from home always actually can lead to over working and being too “productive”. I am yet to collect some evidence on it but I think we remember a good amount about this.

Now after a bunch of companies want their remote workers back at the office, every one of those companies are being almost propaganda machines which do not cite sound scientific studies but cite each other and interviews with higher ups in top companies that “remote workers are less productive”. This is further cementing the general public’s opinion on this matter.

And research that shows the opposite is buried deep within any search results.

Have you noticed this? Please share what you have observed. I’m going paranoid about this.

snek ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

My manager wanted me to come to the office daily because the laptop I had couldn’t handle the company VPN, which we were suddenly using in our systems.

He gave me some crap about it and reminded me of the ‘office first’ policy at my workplace.

I looked him dead in the face and said, “You can’t force anyone back to the office. You know that it’s not going to fly with the employees. You can try but it won’t work”.

He didn’t look too happy about that, but he knows it’s reality.

Ended up finally getting an new old laptop for the VPN issue, which some other employee left behind, because the budget was “too tight” even though I couldn’t do my work efficiently. And a few days ago I was told I’d be laid off. Also because of the budget.

So hooray!

ScrivenerX ,

It’s because a huge amount of business is centered around made up things for going to work.

Things you need to work in an office: suits, dry cleaning for the suits, dress shoes, a car (because public transportation is woefully inadequate for this reason), gas for the car, maintenance for the car, lunch, daycare, a dog walker, you have less time so you are more likely to eat out for dinner, also more likely to hire maids, you are stuck in a commute and radio is awful, so a music subscription, maybe a new phone, and might have to go out for drinks with the coworkers on the way home.

Staying at home, and much of the country on highly limited income, taught us how much we spend on the “privilege” of work. Everyone is still shocked at the emotional and opportunity cost work had, we’re just starting to realize that most of what it sold to us either isn’t real or isn’t needed.

If people don’t go back to work a sea of businesses will fail.

BeHappy ,

I love the “might HAVE to go out for drinks with the coworkers on the way home”. This is my most dreaded fear.

Edit: and clothes/getting ‘ready’ (hair, makeup, underwear, etc.) is double time for women.

Azzu ,
@Azzu@lemm.ee avatar

You missed the most important thing. Real estate investments that aren’t allowed to go down in value, which they would if offices became superfluous. Just imagine how many buildings would become “worthless”/could be used for something else.

gmtom ,
@gmtom@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah, this is BY FAR the biggest reason. Pretty much all the rich people and most big companies have huge investment in portfolios that contain a lot of commercial office spaces. If we were all allowed to work from home those investments would plummet and all the rich people and big companies would take MASSIVE losses on those investments. Which is why all the media and even companies like Zoom are trying to pull a 180 on working from home.

Blaze ,
@Blaze@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

Zoom forcing employees back to offices still baffles me

bemenaker ,

The video conferencing software that saved the world during covid and made all the companies survive the lockdown.

AttackPanda ,

I feel like we need to talk about this more. Their whole model is promoting remote experiences and yet they are also forcing folk back to the office. I can’t think of a reason outside of external pressures that would happen.

Dagwood222 ,

In the Wall Street area of Manhattan, some of the biggest buildings are already being converted to apartments. It’s been a trend for a while, because the older buildings are too expensive to rewire for computers/HVAC.

ScrivenerX ,

That is a huge pressure, but it’s less obvious why a company in a business unrelated to real estate would want real estate prices high.

The secret is that companies aren’t in the business of making a good or providing a service, they actually are just giant schemes for raising money for “investments”. For example, airlines don’t make their money off of selling tickets, but through prospecting jet fuel. Most companies aren’t as direct and clear about what their business actually is.

Also the link between real estate and all of jobs isn’t very clear and is very abstract. It’s easy to see the costs and interactions with companies forced by working in an office, it’s difficult to see how a building losing value effects anyone.

Iamdanno ,

A forward-thinking wealthy person would start buying these buildings at fire-sale prices and converting them to residential buildings.

Revan343 ,

You have to be very choosey, because most office buildings aren’t easily convertable

Dagwood222 ,

Pre-pandemic. Maybe 2005 [?] one of the big American news companies assembles a team of financial experts to study various big companies. Then they deicde to apply all that brain power to an average American family. Husband and wife with three kids, two jobs and two cars. Both have middle class jobs. After running the numbers, the experts told the wife to quit her job. The savings on childcare, running the second car, no fast food dinners, etc. more than made up for the second salary.

AnalogyAddict ,

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    Dagwood222 ,

    If you read what I wrote, the experts looked at all aspects of the couple’s situation. The experts decided that the wife’s job was the one to go.

    If you’re having a problem finding dates, maybe you should look at what common factor all your relationships have.

    AnalogyAddict ,

    I don’t have a problem finding dates. I don’t want to date. Men aren’t worth the cost, in my experience. But nice attempt, trying to attack me personally to cover up your misogyny and the misogyny of the “experts”" you quote. Such a “surprising” tactic. Too bad for you that I’m quite comfortable in my choice to live relatively male-free.

    Tacking the words “expert” and “study” onto misogynistic propaganda doesn’t make it scientifically rigorous. And even though there is still truth in women making less in general, that’s changing. Women need men less and less every year. Thankfully.

    Dagwood222 ,

    You funny.

    If you look up the actual article you’ll see it went as I wrote. In that particular case, the wife was earning less, so it made sense for her to give up her job.

    Anything you’ve added is on you.

    If you’re not dating because ‘men aren’t worth it’ that says more about you than it does about the men.

    Professorozone ,

    This is why it costs a lot less than people think, to retire. A lot of the costs of working go away.

    Shimitar ,
    @Shimitar@feddit.it avatar

    I prefer work from office. Its better for me having kids & dogs and tons of duties at home. Work from home more than once a week is just a waste of time for me which translates to double workload or sorse when at the office.

    Said that, i love WFH because i get things (real things, life things, not work things) done properly and timely… But just doping more than 1 day per week is twice as stressful for me than not.

    My commute is 35km each way, so not even a short one.

    drdabbles ,
    @drdabbles@lemmy.world avatar

    Landlords trying to charge rent again. All of the real studies happening show employees are happier, more productive, and consider not going through a hellish commute to sit in a building with a bunch of people they don’t know or like to be a benefit. It’s only executives and commercial real estate owners desperate to get people into offices so they can feel useful again.

    imekon ,

    I changed jobs during the pandemic. I asked if I could work remotely permanently, they said yes. It’s in my contract I work from home, not the office. I’ve been watching the “sea change” as working remotely has been removed from various companies and wondering why? If all the research points to it being better, then - again - why? The speculation about it being related to real estate is depressing!

    PastorHaggis ,
    @PastorHaggis@lemmy.world avatar

    I’ll be weird and say I absolutely prefer working in-office over from home in most cases. I prefer being able to build relationships with my coworkers, ask quick questions and give quick answers, and just actually being able to talk to people.

    However, I don’t think everyone needs to be in the office. My line of work requires it but I think it’s dumb that companies are requiring them to go in when there’s no reason beyond “we rent the space so we have to use it.”

    Also you’re correct in how the headlines changed and it’s really dumb, but it’s mostly about the fact that real estate owners are trying to force people to rent their spaces instead of selling them.

    macrocephalic ,

    I think there’s a balance for most people. I don’t mind being in the office but I hate commuting there. If the office was down the end of my street then I’d go every day. Luckily I mostly work on my own work so I only need to talk to people occasionally.

    PastorHaggis ,
    @PastorHaggis@lemmy.world avatar

    I can agree with the commute. I started working here by getting up at 6:30 and then traffic would put me at work at 7:30 and on some days it was extra bad. I got a dog who liked to wake me up at 5 so I ended up shifting my whole schedule and now I’m up at 5, out the door by 5:30, and then at work by 6 which means I leave at 3. The commute isn’t as bad now but it’s definitely not for everyone.

    My new “position” is product owner and team lead so I have to interact with my team all day long. It’s definitely easier to talk to the folks at my location than it is to talk to the ones in different states just because I can turn around and go “Hey , what was that requirement you had a question about?” So much easier.

    solstice ,

    Completely agree, especially about quick questions and small minutia. It’s the little things that add up. It’s so much easier to walk to someone’s desk or office than chase them down with a text or trying to get them on the phone.

    silvercove ,

    Commercial real estate owners strike back.

    solstice ,

    I work remotely at the moment since March 2020 and I’m over it, can’t stand it anymore. I’m single with no kids and work a LOT. I’ll frequently wake up, work twelve hours, go to bed, never leave the house. I’m looking for jobs in my field so I can at least get out of the house, go to an office and socialize a bit with colleagues and other office tenants, get lunch at outdoor cafes etc.

    I also miss learning through osmosis from overhearing colleagues discussing technical concepts I’m unfamiliar with, and teaching others similarly about things I know that they don’t.

    My experience working with other people all fully remotely is that it’s very difficult to coordinate as a group, and individually many people are terrible communicators. This is magnified by remote work. (Pet peeve: answer the phone and turn on your fucking camera, I want to know who I’m working 80 hours a week with ffs.)

    All that said I totally agree that a lot of work can and should be done at home. A hybrid approach is difficult though unless everyone is at the office and WFH at the same time. Otherwise what’s the point of me being at the office while you are at home and vice versa. It’s very tricky and I’m not sure how to resolve.

    assassin_aragorn ,

    I don’t know if I’m necessarily more productive in the office, but I do think I prefer that vibe for a workplace. Still, I’m going to go with remote for all the other benefits. I hated commuting.

    It’s just different strokes for different folks.

    recursivesive ,

    Sounds like a YOU problem. Why should we, WFH productive advocates, have to pay for your sins? Get therapy if you need it.

    “I need to get back into commuting, which involves time and money, just so Jane Doe doesn’t feel lonely, because they can’t socialise on their own”.

    YourBestFriendShane ,

    Jeez, who pissed in your Wheaties?

    aaron_griffin ,
    @aaron_griffin@lemmy.world avatar

    The negativity comes almost entirely from two sorts of people

    1. Rich property owners who are seeing their valuable office buildings plummet in value.
    2. People who socialize primarily with work-mates and don’t have other groups

    To 1, fuck 'em. To 2, eh, maybe find a hobby now that you don’t have to commute 2 hours a day

    Misconduct ,

    One of my sups from my old job was recently complaining that people weren’t required to come in more than two days a week and pushing to increase it because the office is lonely without them. She and people like her are the absolute worst. Main character syndrome doesn’t even begin to describe them and I wish nothing but the worst for them in life tbh

    Sheltac ,

    That’s not main character syndrome, that’s just sad.

    Buddahriffic ,

    Some extroverts think it’s everyone else’s duty to energize them.

    Bartsbigbugbag ,

    That’s not an extrovert, that’s an energy vampire.

    kurzon ,
    @kurzon@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

    Can’t agree more.

    doom_and_gloom ,

    [Thread, post or comment was deleted by the author]

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    aaron_griffin ,
    @aaron_griffin@lemmy.world avatar

    For sure it is, but I at least feel with have to emphasize with them a little to solve this situation

    Ataraxia ,
    @Ataraxia@lemmy.world avatar

    I say fuck em to 2. I hated those people in the office. They wouldn’t leave me alone. It was irritating.

    Blackmist ,

    I don’t care if remote workers are less productive (although I’ve seen no evidence that they are).

    You can’t convince me that spending an hour every morning travelling to get to an office, in order to sit in front of the exact two screens I have at home, is a good use of my time, nor is spending an hour getting home again.

    That’s about 450 hours a year for me. 18 whole days. Those days are mine now, and you’re not having them back.

    kogasa ,
    @kogasa@programming.dev avatar

    I wish I had the same setup at work as at home. My home dev environment cost 5 times as much.

    RagingRobot ,

    Yeah when I was originally told I could just work from home forever I invested in a giant monitor and all kinds of tools. Now they changed their mind and want me to go in to an Office with shared desks. No thanks

    Gork ,

    Ackshually, they’re two distinct sets of two screens. Unless you’re taking your two monitors to work and back home every day.

    (sorry for the pedantry I’m ashamed)

    Octavio ,

    If we wanted to take the pedantry to the next level, we could get into a metaphysical discussion about whether the word “screen” refers to the physical appliance displaying the content or the content itself. When you “share your screen” in a Teams meeting, you don’t box up your monitor and mail it to your coworkers. 🤔

    Empricorn ,

    I do, am I doing it wrong…?

    Empricorn ,

    You are technically correct, the best kind of correct.

    spuncertv ,

    It’s nice to have less traffic for blue collar as well.

    Kahlenar ,

    Ah if Hartford CT wasnt a traffic hell

    boonhet ,

    I have at home, is a good use of my time, nor is spending an hour getting home again.

    Yeah, but those are YOUR hours and THEY don’t pay for it, so those hours don’t matter. In fact, it’d be better if you don’t get those hours to yourself. Maybe you’ll have more time to apply to other jobs or something.

    solstice ,

    What about 2-3 days a week and an extra week or two of PTO to compensate? I’m trying to think of ways to incentivize more office work that will appeal to stingy boomer leadership and the younger ‘fuck offices’ crowd.

    assassin_aragorn ,

    I think the only deal I’d take to return to the office every day is a 4 day week. If I have to commute, I also want 4 weeks off.

    MystikIncarnate ,

    You’re not crazy.

    Fact is, at the beginning, remote work was a requirement for companies to keep operating (aka, printing money for the execs and shareholders), so it was freely discussed as a positive thing.

    Now that shareholders and execs can require RTO, the narrative is reversed. If you look at most of the articles surrounding WFH “not working” there’s a very high chance that the motivation for such statements revolves around what management says about WFH, with no actual data to corroborate the message.

    If you do your own research, a lot of what was true for WFH at the start of the pandemic is still true. The numbers and studies show that on the whole in the majority of circumstances, WFH increases productivity and makes workers happier overall. There are a few exceptions to this, I’m sure of that, and for each person, WFH or in office should be a personal choice, but it’s not. You should be allowed to work where you feel most productive and happy. As long as it doesn’t negatively impact your output, then it shouldn’t matter, but to execs, it does matter.

    IMO, the motivation for forced RTO is twofold: first, control. The company you work for wants to exert control over you, so you have to do something that maybe you’re not a big fan of doing, simply because they say so. Additionally, they have more control over your day to day actions while you’re at the office. When you get to converse with others, monitoring how much time you’re spending away from your desk, the ability to walk up to you and grill you for any reason (or no reason). The second, is justifying office expenses. Either to be able to write it off, or pay their real estate owning buddies so those people can get money that could otherwise go to, IDK, wages (lol, it wouldn’t, but you know), and by having the vast majority of their workforce in house all the time, they can keep that going.

    I’m sure there’s more to it, but that’s my impression. Fact is, very few companies are allowing RTO to be just an option. Everything is either part-in-office (aka hybrid), or forced full time RTO. Full remote positions are evaporating.

    PutangInaMo ,

    Companies exerting control is most of my issue personally. When you realize how much of your life they own and control, you don’t want to give that back. And I never will.

    Corq ,

    Corporate pushback. C-Levels love to go on nationwide travel tours “visiting our campuses” - never mind how much in real estate ownership/leases costs the company.

    My current company is hybrid, as we have a sales team that loves to spin ideas off each other in-person, so I get that. My office was just about to expand to a new floor when covid hit. The sales team got hit with covid pretty bad, as all the customer conferences during that period were in California when covid started really spreading fast. Everyone made out okay, but most of the teams were young with families and this spooked a lot of folks. We’re a startup, so all decisions were handled locally and quickly, and coming to campus was strictly optional. Once the worst was over, folks that liked the office culture are back there, without mandates, either way. We can actually hire remotely now, and not be “siloed” into hiring talent that’s local or has to be paid to re-locate.

    My team’s particular role is a perfect fit for remote work, and we’re 24/7 so we can “follow the sun” for our customers, so it works for the various different teams. We meet on a 24-hour “Perma-Zoom”, share screens for training and presentations. In emergencies customer can call into are lines nd we pick it up in zoom and handle the needfuls. Customers that want to see our offices can still do so, we announce the visit, and local remote folks gladly flock in that day because there’s food everywhere for the vsiting diginitaries.

    I work three states away from the office and used to visit quarterly, now about twice a year. Other than the crazy amount of snacks in the physical office that we miss, it’s a good fit. I think if many companies looked at the money they save in physical office costs, they’d give up this “butts in seats” mandate metric that they think equals “success.”

    Dear C-Levels: Do what works organically for your company culture, but seriously keep an open mind to what works for your staff - happier workers are more productive, have less turnover (and thus less training costs for constantly new employees) more knowledge retention about past mistakes and successes and how not to repeat bad strategies. Happier staffers offer more engagement in the company’s overall success.

    tooting_lemmy ,

    I think allot of Banks have a ton of assets tied up in commercial real estate. This is the real reason they are pushing everyone to go back to work. A lot of powerful people will loss money if the commercial real estate market crashes.

    NABDad ,

    What I don’t understand is, why do companies who don’t make money from real estate give a shit? When everyone at my job who could work from home went home to work, our CEO’s reaction was, “If everyone can work from home, why the hell were we paying all this money for rent?”

    To the extent possible, everyone is still working from home, and where the organization couldn’t get out of leases, they’re planning to let them expire. They’re not spending more money to have people work on site just because they have sunk costs in a lease.

    new_acct_who_dis ,

    People working from home aren’t consuming much anymore.

    Of course there’s commercial property leases and micromanaging bosses, but I think the uptick in this messaging is in response to people spending less money.

    Less money on cars, gas, clothes, eating out, fancy coffee, hair/nails, dry cleaning, kid/animal care, gym (?), and probably so much more that I’m not thinking of.

    And when we do spend money on those things, they’re lasting longer and we’re getting more discerning. When I do consider spending money on eating out, I’ll def choose going hungry over getting something lower quality.

    gameboyhomeboy ,

    Hell yeah. I eat out like twice a month now but both are carefully planned experiences at excellent restaurants.

    BeautifulMind , (edited )
    @BeautifulMind@lemmy.world avatar

    Same. I use reclaimed commute time to get groceries and cook now. Wife is thrilled now when I call it ‘my’ kitchen (it was hers by default when my commute + work had me out of the house 12-16 hours a day), and I can whip up a decent meal these days pretty quickly without having to go out

    SmoothIsFast ,

    It’s called all the corporate leases on buildings in major cities. Wall Street bought up all the bonds surrounding those debts and with nobody needing to continue work in cities, those corporate real estate prices are about to crash really badly if they can’t bring people back to cities. That means their balance sheets go out of wack and certain positions become untenable to maintain, not to mention they stand to loose a shit load of money. Hence everything saying its bad now, they need people to move back or their investments fall. It’s not about productivity, emotional benefits, collaboration, but about wealth for the elites.

    SocialMediaRefugee ,

    Most people depend on 401ks and IRAs for their retirements now so wall street affects almost all of us. Pension funds are invested also and good chunks of them are in real estate. It isn’t just “elites”.

    SmoothIsFast ,

    Your s and p 500 is not filled with corporate real estate bonds, the hedge funds shorting and pumping the market are using these bonds for collateral to play the opposite side of your investment. Stop acting like this has a negative effect on the general populace. If anything it would be a boost to the regular folks as those short the s and p would lose collateral and have to buy back in on their short positions, increasing the return of 401ks and the like. It harms the most enriched funds that short almost everything in our market after supplying unlimited VC funding to inflate the companies value before IPO. This particular problem is squarely an elite problem not a general one ffs.

    postmateDumbass ,

    Your 401k makes $1. The elite gain $1000000.

    lackthought ,
    @lackthought@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

    poor management all around, grasping at short term solutions because they can’t see past the next quarterly financial reports

    our company actually closed several offices due to low in-person turnout after the pandemic started to ease up, and they said they would just sub-lease out the buildings to recuperate money

    those of us in the office cities are now fully remote

    MajorHavoc ,

    Well said. “Grasping at short term solutions beacuse they can’t see past the next quarterly financial reports” is at the root of a lot of problems today.

    It irritates me that more investors and stock owners aren’t speaking up about it. We should all want our corporations to make better choices.

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