randomaccount43543 OP ,

explainxkcd.com/2898

Strayce ,

Fallacy fallacy taken to its logical conclusion.

LazaroFilm ,
@LazaroFilm@lemmy.world avatar

Technically, the sun is pulled by the earth too so it’s sort of true.

dev_null ,

Yeah, any 2 bodies actually orbit a common point in between themselves. In case of the Sun and Earth that point is probably still inside the Sun, not far from the center.

lugal ,

My thought exactly but isn’t the common center still inside the sun?

knatschus ,

Yes, but they still both orbit the black hole in the center of our galaxy

kamenlady ,
@kamenlady@lemmy.world avatar

The urge to orbit a black hole is universal

KidnappedByKitties ,

Only until we find something heavier

the_joeba ,

Looks over shoulder Nobody’s going to take this? Sighs Fine. I’ll get this one. Clears throat

Now we all orbit KidnappedByKitties mom.

KidnappedByKitties ,

Get in line! It’s you, everyone and the rest of the universe!

Orbiting…

Slowly watching…

Slowly descending towards the crushing abyss…

Fast or slow, near or far, there is inevitably only Mother…

And the complete annihilation of her touch

TWeaK ,

The common centre is the galaxy they both orbit spiral around together.

Then, the galaxy moves around some other point along with other galaxies.

Then, a bunch of aliens are playing with marbles.

Tier1BuildABear ,
@Tier1BuildABear@lemmy.world avatar

Thanks, kurzkesagt

TWeaK ,

I was thinking Men in Black.

Jaytreeman ,

Except it's still inside the sun, so depending on how big you view the center of the sun it could still be wrong.

danc4498 ,

So if the point is inside the sun, do we not consider the sun as orbiting that point? I would think it is still orbiting a point.

ech ,

The sun isn’t orbiting itself, though, so to say it’s wrong is also wrong. The sun is orbiting a small point in space that is affected by the bodies around it. That the point is covered by the sun doesn’t change that.

starman2112 ,

It’s usually not inside the sun thanks to Jupiter’s fat ass

Bademantel ,

I mean, yeah. That’s the joke.

LazaroFilm ,
@LazaroFilm@lemmy.world avatar

Oh thanks! I wasn’t sure. /s

Bademantel ,

A cunning display of deception!

TrickDacy ,

May as well lose the /s

Nightwind ,

No it’s not. The common center here is the center of our galaxy which both orbit. Even if the sun wobbles a miniscule bit there is no common orbit between them.

tryptaminev , (edited )
@tryptaminev@feddit.de avatar

it is possible for objects to orbit multiple objects at the same time. Add the moon to the system. The moon is orbiting the earth that is orbiting the sun that is orbiting the center of our galaxy. And yes each of them have a common center, just that it is very very close to the center of mass of the larger object in each case.

For the moon the earth is the dominant gravitational force, for the earth it is the sun and for the sun it is the center of our galaxy

Cypher ,

for the sun it is the center of gravity.

You mean the galactic center, which in turn orbits a point somewhere in the middle of our local galactic cluster.

Sylver ,

And our local galactic cluster is heading towards something ominous called the Great Attractor. It’s direction is hidden by the horizon of the Milky Way, but it is most likely another larger cluster of galaxies

tryptaminev ,
@tryptaminev@feddit.de avatar

youre right, i miexd up the words and edited it. thank you.

Donkter ,

There’s a very famous smart man with zany hair and a big tongue that says your comment is wrong and it’s all relative to your frame of reference.

SomethingBurger ,
@SomethingBurger@jlai.lu avatar

zany hair and a big tongue

Gene Simmons?

blanketswithsmallpox ,

The Goblin Bulge King?

CosmicCleric ,
@CosmicCleric@lemmy.world avatar

I would have gone with Groucho Marx.

Zron ,

No the common center is called a barycenter and it’s somewhere just outside the middle of the sun.

Fermion ,

Then Jupiter and Saturn enter the dance and they’re all sort of wrong.

V0lD ,

I mean, yeah, but the bigger argument here is that due to the sheer mass of Jupiter, the centre of mass of our solar system is actually very so slightly outside of the sun

lugal ,

Sometimes, both can be wrong. Both orbit the moon

Teppic ,
@Teppic@kbin.social avatar

...whoosh.
In no logical sense does the sun orbit our moon. The earth does however indeed orbit the moon (or technically they both orbit a common centre between the earth and the moon).

Deceptichum ,
@Deceptichum@kbin.social avatar

Are you saying that in no way shape or form, does the moon and its affect on the earth and earth-moon barycenter not influence the solar barycenter?

Id accept no way worth caring about, but as an absolute?

Teppic ,
@Teppic@kbin.social avatar

You seem to be saying that the earth-moon barycente can be logically referred to as just 'the moon' ?

Deceptichum ,
@Deceptichum@kbin.social avatar

The earth does however indeed orbit the moon (or technically they both orbit a common centre between the earth and the moon).

Heres you referring to the Earth moon barycenter as just ‘the moon’

Teppic ,
@Teppic@kbin.social avatar

You've got me there, but by logical extension you are now saying the celestial body the ISS orbits is ...the moon?

lugal ,

I’ve talked to the man in the moon and he said the sun rises and sets on the moon like it would if the sun orbits the moon. Same for the earth. Both orbit the moon. Face it.

RobotToaster ,
@RobotToaster@mander.xyz avatar

The Earth–Moon–Sun three body problem is apparently something that has been studied quite a bit in physics.

lugal ,

And of cause there are 3 camps and alot of disagreements but essentially, the majority of scientists argue, like me, that it is the moon which is the center. You can always cite some fringe scientists arguing otherwise, that doesn’t change the general consensus.

gandalf_der_12te ,
@gandalf_der_12te@feddit.de avatar

you are the barycenter of your own opinion

yo opinion so massive she needs a crane to get out of bed.

lugal ,

I’m not sure about that but for sure I am the center of my personal narrow Overton Window

Teppic ,
@Teppic@kbin.social avatar

Mobile friendly version: https://m.xkcd.com/2898/

MxM111 ,
@MxM111@kbin.social avatar

All is relative. All are right. Or wrong. We are orbiting galactic center.

CptEnder ,

Ah yes, Sgr A*

StuffYouFear ,

This was my thought too

CptEnder ,

And then after that I guess the Local Group? Haha

billwashere ,

And that point is inside the sun.

dirtbiker509 , (edited )

No the comic is pointing out that the sun and the earth are both orbiting the milky way galactic center.

Edit: While also true, I was wrong, they orbit the center of mass of the two body problem (earth and sun). I still think that’s too simple of a way to look at it. It’s not a two body problem and the other planets and the whole galaxy are also in play.

nonfuinoncuro ,

I mean technically every body in the entire universe exerts gravity on everything else as long as it’s in your light cone

hypertext5689 ,

What’s a light cone?

TheGreenGolem ,
@TheGreenGolem@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

A not too heavy cone.

nonfuinoncuro ,

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_cone

this doesn’t give a very good explanation but I’m sure there’s some good YouTube video that breaks it down. essentially maps out everywhere in space and time that could possibly interact with you in any way. this maximum is represented by how fast light can move away from you.

for example if you stole my car and ran away from me, I can draw a circle on the map every hour for how far you could have gone (assuming I knew my car’s maximum speed). if I put those circles on top of each other it’ll make a cone.

blanketswithsmallpox ,

True in reality it’s just the sun and Jupiter orbiting each other in a common point…

Inside the sun lol.

V0lD ,

No actually. Due to Jupiter, the centre of mass of the solar system is actually very slightly outside of the sun

billwashere ,

Cool. I learned something today

afraid_of_zombies ,

Leave it to Jupiter to mess yet another thing up

frezik ,

Stupid lazy ass diabetus planet doesn’t even have enough mass to fuse its hydrogen.

RememberTheApollo_ ,

Wouldn’t the center of mass constantly be shifting by the planets’ varying positions in orbit?

uriel238 ,
@uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

relative to the center of the Milky Way, yes.

Sadly, the quantum foam has no gridlines.

starman2112 , (edited )

Yes, but it’s mostly shifting because of Jupiter. It’s just so dang heavy. Like, a couple times heavier than every other planet put together. I don’t have the brain wattage to do the cool math right now, but a quick google search says that while the barycenter of the solar system does depend on all the planets, more often than not, it is outside the sun

gandalf_der_12te ,
@gandalf_der_12te@feddit.de avatar

Easy reminder:

sun ~ 10^30 kg
jupiter ~ 10^27 kg
earth ~ 10^24 kg

so the ratio is always 1000:1

niktemadur ,

But I think the math of the argument is only about the common center between Earth and the sun, taking away all other planets out of the equation, especially Jupiter.

Flumpkin ,

So doesn’t that mean the earth and sun do not orbit a common center but a varying point based on mostly Jupiter?

Centrists have bamboozled me again!

WoahWoah ,

Wait I’m sorry, are we saying that the earth’s orbit isn’t almost entirely dictated by the gravitational pull of the massive star at the center of our solar system? I am a simple man, I apologize if that is a stupid question.

ramble81 ,

When dealing with gravitational systems the gravity of each object has to be taken into account. So even though the sun is 99.999% (hyperbole) of the gravity in the equation, the earth’s gravity contributes that small 0.001% and thus the “center” of where they orbit isn’t truly the center of the sun. Tack on Jupiter, which is much more than a fraction of a percent and that “center” moves even farther away from the middle of the sun.

To look at it further, if you had two objects of perfectly equal mass and no other gravitational interference, they would orbit around a point in the middle of each other since their pull is equal. So it’s basically a sliding scale of sorts.

Hope that explains it!

WoahWoah ,

That did help, thanks for taking the time. I think I was thinking about mass and gravity not orbits. Again, I’m an idiot, so that’s probably why I missed the central point of the cartoon. 😁

muntedcrocodile ,
@muntedcrocodile@lemmy.world avatar

Surly the sun is big wnough that the point actually being orbited is still within the sun?

JimVanDeventer ,

For our solar system: mostly. But if we lived in a binary star system, the distinction would be much more obvious.

muntedcrocodile ,
@muntedcrocodile@lemmy.world avatar

Well we aint in a binary star system are we.

JimVanDeventer ,

How would physics know that? We orbit the same point, regardless of the number of stars. (It’s called the barycentre).

WhiskyTangoFoxtrot ,

I haven’t asked the solar system for their pronouns.

spujb ,

yes, the earth-sun barycenter is still well within the sun.

not sure why other commenters felt the need to give snark lol

prex ,

https://aussie.zone/pictrs/image/5bc9991f-b757-47f5-ba67-863d4934bac2.jpeg

TimewornTraveler ,

I appreciate the origin story being included in this cliché, cuz it got repeated so often on Reddit that people seemed to forget it was said by a parody of an obnoxious heartless bureaucrat and repeat the phrase without irony.

Huschke ,

You know, you are technically correct.

SatansMaggotyCumFart ,

Which is a kind of correct.

What kind we’ll never know.

Sotuanduso ,
@Sotuanduso@lemm.ee avatar

As a middle ground kind of guy, I would like to pre-emptively state that a lot of us don’t actually think the answer is always the middle ground between two stances. It’s just that we’re more likely to propose a middle ground solution because we evaluate the plausibility of both stances in a more balanced way (as opposed to existing-stance-holders who are prone to bias towards their own stance.) When the two seem roughly equal in plausibility (which happens fairly often, otherwise the argument would be more one-sided,) that’s an indication to evaluate the middle ground as well.

Middle ground folks are often caricaturized as wanting to find the middle ground between an objectively sensible point A and a radically wrong point B, when the spectrum of opinions is sort of like [ - - - - - A - | - - - - - - B ]. In that caricature, we’re looking for a middle ground at point C [ - - - - - A - | - - C - - - B ], when in actuality we’re evaluating (and not automatically accepting) something two or three steps closer to A. In some such cases, A might already be the most sensible middle ground.

ForgotAboutDre ,

Middle of the ground people are mostly cowards too scared of conflict, or devoid of insight.

Sotuanduso ,
@Sotuanduso@lemm.ee avatar

Maybe there’s a middle ground between our two views.

riskable ,
@riskable@programming.dev avatar

Why are you so scared of conflict?

Sotuanduso ,
@Sotuanduso@lemm.ee avatar

I’m not scared of conflict, I’m averse to needless conflict. I may get involved in a conflict for the purpose of breaking it up, or I may initiate a conflict for a good cause such as combating hatred and averting future conflicts - if I feel it’d be productive.

riskable ,
@riskable@programming.dev avatar

Great reply but… I was being facetious; making fun of the guy you were replying to 😁

Sotuanduso ,
@Sotuanduso@lemm.ee avatar

I figured.

WhiteHawk ,

Why waste your time fighting when there’s a solution everyone is happy with?

thecrotch ,

More likely a solution nobody is happy with but everyone can live with. Your point stands though.

gandalf_der_12te ,
@gandalf_der_12te@feddit.de avatar

“compromise is when all sides are unhappy”

CazzoBuco ,

Middle implies middle. If you are leaning towards a side, then you’re side-leaning. You can’t have your cake and eat it too, centrist, that’s what everyone makes fun of ya’ll for.

AeonFelis ,

It’s “somewhere in the middle”. You are putting to much emphasis on “middle” and not enough of “somewhere”.

CazzoBuco ,

Somewhere in the middle means there’s a middle and side-leaning, yes.

AeonFelis ,

Somewhere in the middle means it doesn’t have to be dead center - it just has be between the two extremes and not exactly one of the extremes. To put it in numbers, somewhere in the middle between 0 and 1 is not just 0.5. It can also be 0.4. Or 0.7. Or 0.00000000001.

Ookami38 ,

This is why people hate pedants. You’re technically correct, it’s just a useless distinction that only exists to make you feel better.

CazzoBuco ,

That’s exactly how I feel about centrists. Curious.

ZDL ,
@ZDL@ttrpg.network avatar

You seem nice.

RedditWanderer , (edited )

It’s hilarious he had to make us a little drawing making up his own scale that fits this narrative.

Sotuanduso ,
@Sotuanduso@lemm.ee avatar

It’s an abstraction of a caricature I’ve seen. Point A was civil rights, point B was the KKK, and the middle ground guy was like “what if we only kill half of Black people?”

Sotuanduso ,
@Sotuanduso@lemm.ee avatar

a lot of us don’t actually think the answer is always the middle ground between two stances.

Jarix ,

If i have a very plain boring hamburger. Bun cheese patty bun, are the cheese and patty in the middle? Middle doesnt always mean center, center doesnt always mean exactly in the center between 2 points either because thats why the term dead center exists

kbal ,
@kbal@fedia.io avatar

In an n-dimensional problem space, the probability of the truth lying anywhere on a line between point A and point B is infinitessimally small.

Sotuanduso ,
@Sotuanduso@lemm.ee avatar

This is also true. I like to evaluate solutions outside the presented dichotomy in general, and that often means outside the line between them, but I didn’t want to complicate my initial explanation that much.

kbal ,
@kbal@fedia.io avatar

It's just the same point xkcd made.

BeMoreCareful ,

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/37d6f078-a1ad-467f-9d3f-2f0630465d3e.png

Sotuanduso ,
@Sotuanduso@lemm.ee avatar

I’m actually not as neutral as I may seem. There are quite a few cases where I hold more extreme opinions, but as a general trend, I average somewhere around the middle.

NewAgeOldPerson ,

I don’t know. But if I die, tell me wife I said hello.

Ookami38 ,

Wow. You just succinctly explained the position I’ve held most of my life. Very well done!

CosmicCleric ,
@CosmicCleric@lemmy.world avatar

You’re my hero. Thank you.

ilinamorato ,

Ok, but let’s realize that you’re not necessarily the one who’s defining the spectrum of options; or put another way, there’s not an objective spectrum of options.

For instance, in the case of Israel and Gaza, you could define the leftmost bracket as “give Israel to the Palestinians” or “the second-state solution” or just “a cease-fire,” and likewise the rightmost bracket could be “let Israel keep the war going but let civilians out through Egypt” through “Israeli settlement of Gaza” all the way up to “glass Gaza.” Depending on who’s talking, and how extreme each person is in the discussion, the most humane solution might not be in the middle at all.

Sotuanduso ,
@Sotuanduso@lemm.ee avatar

I’m not seeing a conflict here. The point I’m making is that the middle ground is not necessarily in the middle of any two given opinions, because the spectrum is wider than that. And also that the middle is not necessarily the best, just worth evaluating.

ilinamorato ,

It’s not a conflict. What I’m trying to say is that what people hear when you say you want to “evaluate the middle option” is entirely dependent upon the options presented in the argument, which is why the caricature is so common.

Hamartiogonic , (edited )
@Hamartiogonic@sopuli.xyz avatar

Apply that to the flat earth debate and you get an oblate spheroid.

Telodzrum ,

…fuck

Thcdenton ,

You’re an oblate spheroid

CosmicCleric ,
@CosmicCleric@lemmy.world avatar

If this topic proves anything, it’s that we should make sure everyone is assuming the same thing before discussing, or clarify before discussing.

You can literally come up with different answers without further clarification.

MNByChoice ,

Remember when we had to list all of our assumptions before making an argument?

Those were good times. (I don’t remember when, maybe in Linear Algebra or an engineer or philosophy course.)

niktemadur ,

It’s called a barycenter, kids, a common center that both objects circle around. That common center happens to be inside the sun, but that’s a topic for next week’s class in this semester’s AP Astrophysics program.

WhiskyTangoFoxtrot ,

Goddammit, Barry.

Everythingispenguins ,

Always trying to compromise

Johanno ,

Same for earth and moon. The center is inside earth. But not that close to the center of the earth itself

niktemadur ,

Meanwhile, Pluto and Charon noticeably orbit each other, the barycenter being fully outside of Pluto’s surface.

Klear ,

And Jupiter is so massive that its barycentre is (barely!) outside of the sun!

ByteJunk ,
@ByteJunk@lemmy.world avatar

I don’t think the barycentre is inside the sun? Wikipedia says on the barycentre article:

When the less massive object is far away, the barycenter can be located outside the more massive object. This is the case for Jupiter and the Sun; despite the Sun being a thousandfold more massive than Jupiter, their barycenter is slightly outside the Sun due to the relatively large distance between them.[2]

hypertext5689 ,

I don’t think the barycentre is inside the sun?

The Jupiter-Sun barycentre in outside the sun.

The Earth-Sun barycentre is inside the sun.

gandalf_der_12te ,
@gandalf_der_12te@feddit.de avatar

Is this… an introductory course in relativity, disguised as a joke?

Am I accidentally learning something here?

Guys?

moosetwin ,
@moosetwin@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

xkcd

yes it is

jungle ,

Not really, relativity plays no role here. It’s classical Newtonian physics.

moosetwin ,
@moosetwin@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

I was more referring to the fact that xkcd’s comics have a lot of science in them, rather than the specific type of science

netvor ,
@netvor@lemmy.world avatar

relativity plays no role here

I still count that as learning.

JasonDJ ,

Relatively speaking, though…

kurosawaa ,

XKCD is basically all math jokes.

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