In my experience, the number one reason you see very very few male primary school teachers, and even less kindergarten or prek, is the social assumption by parents AND admin that men both do not know how to care for/teach children of that age, and that they MUST be up to something nefarious.
There's also the assumption that men with younger children are automatically preditors. It's why dads taking their daughters outside without a mom get looks
Twenty years ago I used to work at one of Canada's largest kids camps running their health centers. After my stay at home experiences ten years ago or so I probably wouldn't take that job now.
I had an experience in Germany that really stuck with me. It highlighted to me the difference in how men are treated around children. As a north American, it's assumed that older men around children is an unsafe situation and that left me feeling doubt and uneasiness whenever I was around children.
I had the opportunity to work and travel in Germany for a year and picked up a job as a home cleaner. Think Uber but for private property cleaners.
I was scheduled to clean a home I've never been to before and the owner told me that their son would be there to let me in. When I arrived, I called the home owner and she let her son know to let me in. He was probably about 10 years old and I was completely shocked that this person was trusting a complete stranger with her son who was home alone. I did my job and let him stay in his room and didn't bother to clean his room when he refused after I asked.
I did get a chance to meet the parents on later visits to clean but that really put it into perspective to me just different men can be treated in different parts of the world.
The main reason men drop out of becomming an elementary teacher, is because they have to work parttime at a kindergarten for 6 months. Most of them want to teach, not care for walking shit/vomit fountains.
This is great. The pay sucks though. The reason why is that the economy does not care about the children. We got immigration. Why the fuck would the economy lose money on kindergarten ? Or on family in general ? It's a trend that keeps going on. Less and less children. Our places are less and less for families.
That's an interesting and somewhat sad point. Economically immigration is probably cheaper for society than raising domestic children properly.
Hypothetically we can scoop the cream from the top of other countries and let them bear the expense of early childhood education, and come out better off than doing it ourselves.
I don't know if what I'm implying is true, just a thought I had. It feels sad that we should no longer have families because of money. It really feels counterintuitive. I never saw any reports or analysis comparing children versus immigration, probably because it's a way too complex question.
I feel like having children has more benefit than entirely relying on immigration.
Yeah the right wing goal is to privatize education to further ensure that the rich are the only ones that can control the narrative and get ahead. It’s wild to watch a country go from championing public education to half of the nation vilifying it for corporate and wealthy interests
It isn’t just that. Any job seen as a ‘woman’s job’ is going to pay less. And it isn’t just for the ‘traditional’ women’s jobs, like grade school teacher or secretary. If women enter a field in significant numbers, then wages overall will fall. See veterinary work for one example.
Women are still seen like a child trying to help. It's ridiculous. I don't think it's like that all the time, but education does seem like it. It does feel like taking care of children is not a real job because "anyone can do it" (they can't).
I vaguely remember there being a male kindergarten teacher when I was that age. there was usually a maximum of 1 per grade up until high school. that's when there was more like a third per grade.
Not a native speaker here, I would have thought you "drop out" of college not "stop out" of it, is both sounding ok to native speakers or are they different things?
you're correct that the term normally used is "drop out". i think this article may be using "stop out" to specifically refer to people who merely did not enroll in a new semester (vs. people who e.g. failed out, or were otherwise forcibly removed from the school), but i wasn't able to conclude this 100% from my reading
“Survey of men and women who stopped out of community college in the past year shows similar economic motivations across genders, though women were more likely to say that they were having a medical issue or that they had to care for a child, while men were more likely to say that they had a job opportunity or needed to financially support a cohabitating adult.”
Conformity to masculine norms tied to higher levels of harassment in public, and expectation that mental help will be hostile to one’s core identity due to demonization of men for decades.
i can understand the second part of your statement, but the first part confuses me. are you saying that you'll be harassed more in public for being gender conforming vs e.g. wearing a dress? or do you mean something else?
I think these types of conversations are important for men and women alike. I’m a straight white man who is comfortable sharing his emotions with my partner, friends, and co workers. I have a bad habit of putting others and their needs before myself but I also make sure I take care of/pamper myself. When someone challenges me, especially to physical confrontation or some other potentially dangerous behavior, I can easily decline and look “weak”, I’ve never been in a fist fight in my life and I’m happy about that. In my mind and the way I was raised (in WV of all places) these are strong masculine traits: be open and honest with people around you, take care of others and yourself, and don’t do anything overly dangerous just to look tough or more important than you are.
The thing is, all of these a strong qualities that I want in the people I associate with, men and women. There are toxic behaviors on every part of the gender spectrum, the trick is recognizing them, not playing into them yourself, and helping family and friends through open dialogues not meant to shame or embarrass but real conversation.
My post is kind of rambling and I apologize for that but I wanted to put this out there because I saw a few comments about how some women and certain behaviors, like protecting a loved one from a mugger, can perpetuate toxicity. And to that I say, if there are people like that in your orbit, you either need to cut them out or if you love them and want them around, you need to have a conversation with them about their toxic behavior.
I only have time to scan the article, but did they control for cost? That would seem to be a primary deterrent for anyone seeking any kind of medical help in the US. We simply can’t afford treatment even with insurance and can’t risk becoming trapped in our profit-making medical-industrial complex with unstoppable lifetime prescription drugs.
The sample was predominantly white (66.3%), heterosexual (85%), and well-educated, with 41% holding a college degree. Political affiliations varied, with nearly half identifying as Democrats.
Not a demographer much less an American but comparing to the general US populations white is slightly overrepresented (population is 60%), 85% heteros actually checks out if people are identifying correctly, that is, no bi erasure, otherwise heteros are under-represented, 41% college degree is low, 61.28% have an associate degree or higher. Still that doesn't say anything about how much you earn, squinting at it the biases aren't strong enough to discount the results.
If anything the issue is 326 participants on top of that online.
The conformity to masculine norms was measured using the Conformity to Masculine Norms Inventory-30, which covers aspects such as emotional control, winning, playboy behaviors, violence, heterosexual self-presentation, pursuit of status, primacy of work, power over women, self-reliance, and risk-taking.
...that's a very mixed bag, toxicity-wise.
Interestingly, the direct link between traditional masculine norms and depressive symptoms was not significant.
Duh because the symptom descriptions in the DSM-V are female-centric. Same stuff in men first gets undiagnosed because it surfaces as frustration, not lethargy, then at some point you get a burnout diagnosis. Well, either that or you take up farming or something.
However, specific facets of masculine norms, such as heterosexual self-presentation, power over women, and self-reliance, were significantly associated with higher help-seeking self-stigma.
Self-reliance is the key thing to address here, I think, the rest I estimate to be correlation, not causation. And it needs to be addressed properly, because it's the one that hivemind doesn't really get: No it's not a bad thing. Also, no, you don't need to be the undisputed master of the universe. It's also the part where even otherwise progressive women promote toxic masculinity to a significant degree, you all know the "I opened up once about my problems and I'm never going to do that again" type of stories. I can't even fathom how much would change if the default reaction instead was "Don't know what to do? Call a male friend of his to take him fishing". In the meantime, let's be self-reliant and take people fishing without their SOs calling.
“From a positive psychology perspective, clinicians are turning to a strengths-based approach to encourage and reinforce positive masculine traits (Englar-Carlson & Kiselica, 2013), which may help to reframe help-seeking as an action of strength instead of weakness, thereby encouraging men to seek support for mental health when they need it.”
Yes! Apes together strong. Tough challenge, though, with the current degree of alienation and, especially in the US, rugged individualism. OTOH we don't need no psychologists or access to therapy to frame things like that.
I don't think the "US sucks at the availability of therapy" angle is wrong, as such, it's definitely a huge factor -- but it's probably also not the most efficient leverage point to change the system. That's always the issue with reductive analysis: You might spot a real issue, a very core issue indeed, but the solution often doesn't lie with the core issue but among factors which enable it. In this case, voter's attitude to availability of care would certainly change if "that's for losers, also, fuck you got mine" wasn't as predominant a social force.
Great points and I agree. The tiny non-representative sample, which I missed so thanks, should make it difficult even to use this for framing the hypothesis of a proper study.
I still suspect that cost is a major barrier in seeking care. Until we address that, it won’t matter what we do about the other factors.
I still suspect that cost is a major barrier in seeking care. Until we address that, it won’t matter what we do about the other factors.
Addressing things on a non-clinical level also reduces the need for therapy in the first place. Bluntly said if you can get someone who's frustrated to delete facebook, get a different job, and deliberately refrain from grabbing butt while hugging his wife (non-sexual body contact works wonders for libido) before they spin out of control they, well, don't spin out of control.
Prevention is always better than therapy and while shit life syndrome is unavoidable under the current material conditions, it's not like this is North Korea we're talking about. There's options to reduce the shit to tolerable levels for most people, no need to dive head-first into the latrine.
This seems more like a promotion for his trip than anything.
Look, making friends is easy AF.
For friendships to form you have to have proximity, a shared experience, and continued interaction.
In school you had these pretty easily, you were stuck there most of the year and experienced the same things, and you interacted all the time. Eventually you found common ground and boom, friends.
Hard to do as an adult, but here's how to do it.
Get a hobby or an interest, then go to a meet up of that stuff. You like anime? Go to a con. Cars? Car show. Whatever.
Then everyone there already has a built in ice breaker! Talk to them about that thing you're all the for! Ask people about themselves, get interested in others! Everyone loves to talk about themselves. You'll make more friends in five minutes getting interested in other people than you will in five years trying to get someone interested in you.
If they seem cool by the end of the event, say "hey you seem cool wanna hang out some time?" And exchange contact info and then talk to them once in a while. Then hang out when you can. Introduce them to other friends you have, they will do the same.
If they suck and are assholes, don't hang out with them anymore
Why tf would you associate with men who would punish you if you don't "live up to a masculine ideal"? You're not out of the "masculinity rat race" if you don't do something that some people see as not manly.
If you're a man, you get to define what masculinity is and means. If that means monster trucks and guns, cool. If that means baking cookies and taking care of a baby, cool. You're a man so by default everything you do is manly.
If someone is being a shithead, fuckem. You go your own way. Sometimes that's hard, sometimes you can't do it right away, but you leave them in the dust.
If I could add one thing to presidential debates it would be making the participants life a 40lb test weight like they do when you interview with a shipping company. People don't have to care about how well they do, I would just like to see it.
One of the most interesting things about Trump is that you never have to mention his name; just describe something third rate or inane and people know.
Right after the 2016 election there was a panel discussion that included the creative teams behind all the biggest political shows on TV. House of Cards; Veep; The West Wing; Scandal, and all the rest.
Every person up there said the same thing; if they'd had a character who said that 'he liked soldiers who didn't get captured' the networks and advertisers would have demanded that the character be shown as being hated by all Americans, and thrown into the gutter.
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