This is great. The pay sucks though. The reason why is that the economy does not care about the children. We got immigration. Why the fuck would the economy lose money on kindergarten ? Or on family in general ? It's a trend that keeps going on. Less and less children. Our places are less and less for families.
That's an interesting and somewhat sad point. Economically immigration is probably cheaper for society than raising domestic children properly.
Hypothetically we can scoop the cream from the top of other countries and let them bear the expense of early childhood education, and come out better off than doing it ourselves.
I don't know if what I'm implying is true, just a thought I had. It feels sad that we should no longer have families because of money. It really feels counterintuitive. I never saw any reports or analysis comparing children versus immigration, probably because it's a way too complex question.
I feel like having children has more benefit than entirely relying on immigration.
Yeah the right wing goal is to privatize education to further ensure that the rich are the only ones that can control the narrative and get ahead. It’s wild to watch a country go from championing public education to half of the nation vilifying it for corporate and wealthy interests
It isn’t just that. Any job seen as a ‘woman’s job’ is going to pay less. And it isn’t just for the ‘traditional’ women’s jobs, like grade school teacher or secretary. If women enter a field in significant numbers, then wages overall will fall. See veterinary work for one example.
Women are still seen like a child trying to help. It's ridiculous. I don't think it's like that all the time, but education does seem like it. It does feel like taking care of children is not a real job because "anyone can do it" (they can't).
In my experience, the number one reason you see very very few male primary school teachers, and even less kindergarten or prek, is the social assumption by parents AND admin that men both do not know how to care for/teach children of that age, and that they MUST be up to something nefarious.
There's also the assumption that men with younger children are automatically preditors. It's why dads taking their daughters outside without a mom get looks
Twenty years ago I used to work at one of Canada's largest kids camps running their health centers. After my stay at home experiences ten years ago or so I probably wouldn't take that job now.
I had an experience in Germany that really stuck with me. It highlighted to me the difference in how men are treated around children. As a north American, it's assumed that older men around children is an unsafe situation and that left me feeling doubt and uneasiness whenever I was around children.
I had the opportunity to work and travel in Germany for a year and picked up a job as a home cleaner. Think Uber but for private property cleaners.
I was scheduled to clean a home I've never been to before and the owner told me that their son would be there to let me in. When I arrived, I called the home owner and she let her son know to let me in. He was probably about 10 years old and I was completely shocked that this person was trusting a complete stranger with her son who was home alone. I did my job and let him stay in his room and didn't bother to clean his room when he refused after I asked.
I did get a chance to meet the parents on later visits to clean but that really put it into perspective to me just different men can be treated in different parts of the world.
The main reason men drop out of becomming an elementary teacher, is because they have to work parttime at a kindergarten for 6 months. Most of them want to teach, not care for walking shit/vomit fountains.
A large percentage of women actively prefer many of the behaviors we're describing as "toxic". The majority of my casual partners have explicitly requested, or discussed how attractive they find, borderline abusive behavior: physical aggression, jealousy, catcalling and infantalizing language, relentless pursuit, etc. My first girlfriend told me to be less respectful with her, and lost a lot of attraction toward me the first time I was emotionally vulnerable with her.
So a big problem is that while a vocal portion of women are telling men that certain gender norms are toxic and they need to stop, they're watching the women they're pursuing choose the men who exhibit this toxic behavior. At the end of the day, without any guidance from feminists, they have to choose between what the feminists tell them, and what the pick-up artist types tell them. The pick-up artists promise them romantic success, the feminists call them toxic for feeling entitled to romantic success.
With sexual/romantic success being the primary motivator for young men, is it really a surprise that they make the choices they make?
This is absolutely true and I'm always surprised there isn't more acknowledgement in progressive women's circles. Simple polling shows that roughly a third of women hold all men to these standards but there are significantly more who exclusively apply it to potential partners (speaking from a very US-centric perspective).
The honest solution is that women who think this way are simply not good partners, and should be avoided to whatever degree is possible.
I guess it becomes a matter of strategy. Maybe progressive women aren't the ones who need to hear it the most, and they may feel offended at the suggestion that other women could be part of reinforcing the patriarchy. It mirrors the way men are asked to shut down other mens sexist remarks and actions. I'm sure such behavior is prevalent, but I never witness it. So the question to me is, how do we communicate this whole thing to women as a group? The ones willing to listen aren't the ones who need to hear it, and the ones who need to hear it are probably not willing to listen.
I would disagree that women who think this way ought be discounted any more that you should say "Don't date a man that loves big boobs and can't arrange furniture to save his life".
Ultimately we as a species are stuck with the sex drives we've got. Whilst some effort can be made to rise above them, (and to recognise potential partners who don't) I think we also need to find healthy behaviours that can scratch the same itch as the toxic ones.
Jealousy is fine if stated frankly and honestly, rather than manifesting in surviellance. Relentless pursuit is fine in the framework of formal flirtation, not on a street with stranger. You oughtn't manhandle where uninvited, but it's no sin to be physically fit enough to be capable of it.
There's a confusion happening. I think people are thinking "toxic masculinity" means all masculine traits are toxic, and I feel that's not the case.
It's not that masculine traits are good or bad, it's that they become "toxic" when they become dysfunctional.
For example, a masculine trait is being able to endure hardship, to be kind of stoic. This can be a positive trait when working out, instead of whining to everyone about how heavy weights are you keep going and finish your set. It can be negative when you feel like you can't cry at a funeral, trying to be manly when you're sad.
The solution, in my opinion, isn't to act less manly but embrace other aspects of manliness. Instead of refusing to cry, you can embrace the idea that men will do as they want regardless of the negative opinions and doubts of others, and cry as much as you want at a funeral.
It's not effeminate to cry at a funeral, and is now a manly thing to cry at a funeral.
So yeah, women like masculine traits (at least the women who like men tend to), but they don't like it when people use the excuse of masculine traits hurt them, people around them, or the men they love.
The majority of my casual partners have explicitly requested, or discussed how attractive they find, borderline abusive behavior: physical aggression, jealousy, catcalling and infantalizing language, relentless pursuit, etc.
What they say they want is usually not what they want. Let me take your examples apart:
physical aggression,
The actually attractive thing is being able to hold your own, and be self-directed. Anger and aggression are a pale imitation of that preferred by some women because they've never seen anything off the doormat - douchebag axis. Or, differently put: You can't be peaceful while being harmless. If she prefers a bit of a thrill loom there like a rollercoaster handing out tickles if you dare to get on.
jealousy,
Is a pale imitation of loyalty. It's what passes as attachment in lieu of meaningful connection, as relationship security in lieu of figuring out what both of you want from your own and the other's life.
catcalling
Yes she wants to be considered attractive. She likes compliments. We all do... at least from the right people, in the right situation, for a thing we want to be complimented for. The trick is to be able to mind-read :)
and infantalizing language,
That's about being cared for, having space to not have to care about things, space to stop adulting. If she generally fails at adulting that's a red flag, if she has her shit together, heck, why not, I can make pancakes with happy faces on them.
Why tf would you associate with men who would punish you if you don't "live up to a masculine ideal"? You're not out of the "masculinity rat race" if you don't do something that some people see as not manly.
If you're a man, you get to define what masculinity is and means. If that means monster trucks and guns, cool. If that means baking cookies and taking care of a baby, cool. You're a man so by default everything you do is manly.
If someone is being a shithead, fuckem. You go your own way. Sometimes that's hard, sometimes you can't do it right away, but you leave them in the dust.
I think a lot of men believe “I’m one of the good ones” and don’t stop to think that a random woman on the street (or in the woods, in this case) has no way of determining that.
It's worth to know that nobody is ever infallible. I've always thought that same thing, "I'm a good guy.". But I've learned that it's better to think, "i may think I'm a good guy, but I need to be careful about how I come off," because I have said some fucked up things without realizing it.
Like, I have genuinely made some people uncomfortable without me realizing it, and I've been trying hard to be more aware of not only the situation I'm putting someone in, but the vibes I'm giving off.
I had a pretty pivotal experience around this realization when I was in my late teens. A buddy of mine and I were driving around town running errands, and we ended up driving past this same woman a couple of times like miles apart. At one point, I rolled down my window and asked if she needed a ride. The look on her face broke part of me. She was terrified of me. I'd never been looked at like that before.
I was so nieve at that point in my life. It never even occurred to me how horrifying 2 guys you don't know rolling up and trying to get you in their car might be. Neither of had any bad intentions...it was hot as hell out, and we figured she'd been walking for miles at that point. But none of that matters...we were like clumsy giants destroying a village we wanted to visit because we never considered the fact that we were just too big.
I still feel bad when I think about it and that was 20 years ago.
I went on a date with a woman many years ago and we had dinner. It's was clear we weren't vibing but we had a polite dinner and chatted and on the way out insisted I could drive her home instead of her taking an Uber like she did to get there. I offered a couple times and she agreed. I dropped her off and watched from the car to make sure she made it inside. I had good intentions and didn't intended to do anything more than drop her off. But man looking back, I wish I would have just waited with her for the Uber to show up. I bet that was uncomfortable for her.
I think you might be right in that idea. One time I was out with my wife at a club show. She got a little too drunk and stumbling. I was walking her out of the club to pick up the metro and go home, when some chick stopped us (her) and whispered something in my wife's ear.
My wife responded "No, it's good. He's my husband."
When I asked my wife what was that about and she told me that she was "checking to make sure I knew you." My first response was "oh yeah that makes sense. Men suck." I was low-key glad they checked on my wife though. They had no way of knowing if "I'm one of the good ones."
Did they apologize to you afterwards? If not then that's what's fucked up about this whole situation in society. You can't treat a person that you just suspected was a harasser like wind after you do it, and excuse it with "men are shitty, so I'm forgiven for my own shitty behaviour towards the good ones".
I vaguely remember there being a male kindergarten teacher when I was that age. there was usually a maximum of 1 per grade up until high school. that's when there was more like a third per grade.
Not a native speaker here, I would have thought you "drop out" of college not "stop out" of it, is both sounding ok to native speakers or are they different things?
you're correct that the term normally used is "drop out". i think this article may be using "stop out" to specifically refer to people who merely did not enroll in a new semester (vs. people who e.g. failed out, or were otherwise forcibly removed from the school), but i wasn't able to conclude this 100% from my reading
“Survey of men and women who stopped out of community college in the past year shows similar economic motivations across genders, though women were more likely to say that they were having a medical issue or that they had to care for a child, while men were more likely to say that they had a job opportunity or needed to financially support a cohabitating adult.”
There are other reasons not to want to. I like being self-sufficient. I like knowing that I could keep myself and those around me more safe if there was a threat. Etc. My environment would probably be fine with me if I did not want those things-- or at least I've never considered whether they would, because it's not repercussions that make me want to be me.
I think the difference between "I can't" and "I don't wanna" is big enough to be worth splitting. For instance, when trying to think of reasons for men that "can't" abandon masculinity, you're looking for externalities (pressure). If you think about why don't men "want to", you'll find plenty of self-serving reasons and rationalization, which in my opinion is a more realistic framing.
Conformity to masculine norms tied to higher levels of harassment in public, and expectation that mental help will be hostile to one’s core identity due to demonization of men for decades.
i can understand the second part of your statement, but the first part confuses me. are you saying that you'll be harassed more in public for being gender conforming vs e.g. wearing a dress? or do you mean something else?
I only have time to scan the article, but did they control for cost? That would seem to be a primary deterrent for anyone seeking any kind of medical help in the US. We simply can’t afford treatment even with insurance and can’t risk becoming trapped in our profit-making medical-industrial complex with unstoppable lifetime prescription drugs.
The sample was predominantly white (66.3%), heterosexual (85%), and well-educated, with 41% holding a college degree. Political affiliations varied, with nearly half identifying as Democrats.
Not a demographer much less an American but comparing to the general US populations white is slightly overrepresented (population is 60%), 85% heteros actually checks out if people are identifying correctly, that is, no bi erasure, otherwise heteros are under-represented, 41% college degree is low, 61.28% have an associate degree or higher. Still that doesn't say anything about how much you earn, squinting at it the biases aren't strong enough to discount the results.
If anything the issue is 326 participants on top of that online.
The conformity to masculine norms was measured using the Conformity to Masculine Norms Inventory-30, which covers aspects such as emotional control, winning, playboy behaviors, violence, heterosexual self-presentation, pursuit of status, primacy of work, power over women, self-reliance, and risk-taking.
...that's a very mixed bag, toxicity-wise.
Interestingly, the direct link between traditional masculine norms and depressive symptoms was not significant.
Duh because the symptom descriptions in the DSM-V are female-centric. Same stuff in men first gets undiagnosed because it surfaces as frustration, not lethargy, then at some point you get a burnout diagnosis. Well, either that or you take up farming or something.
However, specific facets of masculine norms, such as heterosexual self-presentation, power over women, and self-reliance, were significantly associated with higher help-seeking self-stigma.
Self-reliance is the key thing to address here, I think, the rest I estimate to be correlation, not causation. And it needs to be addressed properly, because it's the one that hivemind doesn't really get: No it's not a bad thing. Also, no, you don't need to be the undisputed master of the universe. It's also the part where even otherwise progressive women promote toxic masculinity to a significant degree, you all know the "I opened up once about my problems and I'm never going to do that again" type of stories. I can't even fathom how much would change if the default reaction instead was "Don't know what to do? Call a male friend of his to take him fishing". In the meantime, let's be self-reliant and take people fishing without their SOs calling.
“From a positive psychology perspective, clinicians are turning to a strengths-based approach to encourage and reinforce positive masculine traits (Englar-Carlson & Kiselica, 2013), which may help to reframe help-seeking as an action of strength instead of weakness, thereby encouraging men to seek support for mental health when they need it.”
Yes! Apes together strong. Tough challenge, though, with the current degree of alienation and, especially in the US, rugged individualism. OTOH we don't need no psychologists or access to therapy to frame things like that.
I don't think the "US sucks at the availability of therapy" angle is wrong, as such, it's definitely a huge factor -- but it's probably also not the most efficient leverage point to change the system. That's always the issue with reductive analysis: You might spot a real issue, a very core issue indeed, but the solution often doesn't lie with the core issue but among factors which enable it. In this case, voter's attitude to availability of care would certainly change if "that's for losers, also, fuck you got mine" wasn't as predominant a social force.
Great points and I agree. The tiny non-representative sample, which I missed so thanks, should make it difficult even to use this for framing the hypothesis of a proper study.
I still suspect that cost is a major barrier in seeking care. Until we address that, it won’t matter what we do about the other factors.
I still suspect that cost is a major barrier in seeking care. Until we address that, it won’t matter what we do about the other factors.
Addressing things on a non-clinical level also reduces the need for therapy in the first place. Bluntly said if you can get someone who's frustrated to delete facebook, get a different job, and deliberately refrain from grabbing butt while hugging his wife (non-sexual body contact works wonders for libido) before they spin out of control they, well, don't spin out of control.
Prevention is always better than therapy and while shit life syndrome is unavoidable under the current material conditions, it's not like this is North Korea we're talking about. There's options to reduce the shit to tolerable levels for most people, no need to dive head-first into the latrine.
I think these types of conversations are important for men and women alike. I’m a straight white man who is comfortable sharing his emotions with my partner, friends, and co workers. I have a bad habit of putting others and their needs before myself but I also make sure I take care of/pamper myself. When someone challenges me, especially to physical confrontation or some other potentially dangerous behavior, I can easily decline and look “weak”, I’ve never been in a fist fight in my life and I’m happy about that. In my mind and the way I was raised (in WV of all places) these are strong masculine traits: be open and honest with people around you, take care of others and yourself, and don’t do anything overly dangerous just to look tough or more important than you are.
The thing is, all of these a strong qualities that I want in the people I associate with, men and women. There are toxic behaviors on every part of the gender spectrum, the trick is recognizing them, not playing into them yourself, and helping family and friends through open dialogues not meant to shame or embarrass but real conversation.
My post is kind of rambling and I apologize for that but I wanted to put this out there because I saw a few comments about how some women and certain behaviors, like protecting a loved one from a mugger, can perpetuate toxicity. And to that I say, if there are people like that in your orbit, you either need to cut them out or if you love them and want them around, you need to have a conversation with them about their toxic behavior.
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