Episode Discussion | Star Trek: Strange New Worlds | 2x03 "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow"

::: spoiler Logline La’An travels back in time to twenty-first-century Earth to prevent an attack which will alter humanity’s future history—and bring her face to face with her own contentious legacy. :::

Written by David Reed

Directed by Amanda Row

Note: This is a second attempt, as technical difficulties were preventing people from seeing the original discussion post. Apologies to the people who were able to comment in the original.

pinwurm ,
@pinwurm@lemmy.world avatar

A little late to the game but I really loved this episode.

Only thing that didn’t quite make sense to me was the romantic connection between La’an and Kirk. It felt forced - and I feel like the episode would’ve been just as strong without it. Just them bonding as friends, who are going through this deeply traumatic time travel experience together - would’ve been more than enough.

I can appreciate that La’an would be more vulnerable as a result Kirk not knowing her family name, but she oggled him in the changing room before that was revealed. Seemed out of character.

Otherwise, I’m really curious to see what kind of timeline implication all of this will have - and if the watch will make way back in the series somehow.

JWBananas ,
@JWBananas@kbin.social avatar

Hold up.

The Klingons Romulans go back in time to save JFK kill Khan? And Spock La'an has to kill save him?

Wasn't this the original plot of Star Trek II?

JWBananas ,
@JWBananas@kbin.social avatar

Maybe once Mariner gets there, La'an can finally talk about what she went through.

JWBananas ,
@JWBananas@kbin.social avatar

Me at the beginning: Oh, great. More time travel. I'm so sick of time travel and temporal mechanics. The Science Vulcan Directorate has determined that time travel has been done to death.

Me at the end: 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭

ryan ,

You echo my exact sentiments. I was so prepared to be disappointed by "yet another time travel episode to modern day, oh boy" and the writers pulled it off.

I've been incredibly impressed by S2 so far, gotta say.

Segin ,

Great episode, this seasons is just getting better every week.

JohnnyDelirious ,

I enjoyed that episode a lot, although it would have benefitted from its length being tightened up by ten minutes.

What do we think was the nature of the Romulan interference with Earth? And what time period is Sera, the Romulan agent from?

The DTI agent appears to use 29th century tech, which is several hundred years after the Romulan Empire’s supernovae-driven collapse but possibly around the time of the Romulan-Vulcan reunification of Ni’Var. Is she from that same time period?

Sera also shows Kirk a picture of what looks like a TOS-era Bird-of-Prey as part of her alien conspiracy photo deck. It has the round nacelles typical of the 23rd century, rather than those seen in ENT’s 22nd century designs, or some other design representing the 20th/21st century in which these attacks take place.

Is she a time agent from the 23rd century (with the appropriate Romulan ship in orbit)?

Is that her guessing who Kirk is, and planting the evidence he’s most likely to recognize? Or was that really a Romulan design from the 21st century?

Which leads to me wonder if the Romulans started interfering with Earth’s development only due to temporal war shenanigans, or had they been doing flybys for as long as the Vulcans?

StillPaisleyCat ,
@StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website avatar

Never thought that letting an episode run longer in streaming would be viewed as a negative.

I wouldn’t have cut anything.

MagikarpeDiem ,

I guess I’m one of the few voices of dissent again… I enjoyed last week’s episode, but this episode is disappointing again. The romance between La’an was very unnecessary and unnatural. They had no chemistry and it felt incredibly awkward. I still can’t stand their choice for Kirk. Feels like I’m watching Darrin from Bewitched (or some other “ordinary working man” type character) doing cosplay and not a star ship captain, and certainly not a captain like Kirk. Not only does he not have “the look,” but I hated the way he delivered all his lines.

The only breath of fresh air for me is that a disaster takes place someplace other than New York, LA, or the US in general. However, they definitely didn’t hire enough extras for Toronto. Everywhere looked too under populated and not enough racial diversity (ie: where were all the Asians? Toronto is filled with East, South, Subcontinental Asians). I’ve never seen the streets of Toronto so sparse.

ranphi ,

I’m with you on this. La’an is my fave character in this show so I was really looking forward to this episode. But after watching it, I felt it just wasn’t very good. I think, for me, it was mostly the writing, followed by the pacing, and the fact that while Kirk is my all-time fave Trek Captain… I just do not like the Kirk in this show. I just don’t find the actor they chose to be a suitable fit at all, unfortunately.

Still, the episode did have a few good moments, and it’s only 1 of only 2 episodes, so far, that I haven’t enjoyed with this series. So that’s still a good batting average.

Hopefully I’ll like the next episode more!

LaSirena ,
@LaSirena@midwest.social avatar

I totally agree about the change of locations! Where were the exterior scenes filmed? Was it really Toronto?

ValueSubtracted OP Mod ,
@ValueSubtracted@startrek.website avatar

Like Discovery, Strange New Worlds is filmed in Toronto, so it was a fairly easy location shoot for them.

DoctorWheeze ,

Yeah, that was definitely actually Toronto. The big area they’re wandering around in at the start is Yonge-Dundas Square, and I’m pretty sure this is the clothing store they stole from. The “Noonien-Singh Center” at the end was actually the Royal Ontario Museum - both the interior and exterior.

Kinda weird seeing Star Trek characters actually wandering around in an area I know decently well.

BowtiesAreCool ,

For me there was a couple wild suspensions of disbelief that just didn’t work. Earning enough cash from an afternoon of playing randoms at chess in the park to afford a full on suite at a decent hotel downtown Toronto. And the police just letting them go, no license, no identification of any kind…

I did really enjoy Toronto in general and thought the main plot was strong enough, but agree the romance was unnecessary and also think the dialogue needs some work.

TheGayTramp ,
@TheGayTramp@lemmy.ca avatar

Not just the hotel, but enough to bribe two separate border officers to let them cross the border the day after a terrorist attack

absentmoniker ,

As others have mentioned, far too many suspensions of disbelief in this one. I’m not sure which is more ridiculous though: Kirk hustling general public at chess winning enough money for a downtown Toronto hotel suite or the brutally awkward romance between La’an & Kirk.

burningquestion ,

I enjoyed it. La’an is very much growing on me, and Pelia has immediately become my favorite character.

Enjoying the episodes that delve deeply into specific characters. Probably one of the best things about older treks that Discovery and Picard didn’t do well.

Klanky ,
@Klanky@sopuli.xyz avatar

This is the best episode of modern Trek since Magic to Make…

It hit all the right notes and felt so Star Trek. Don’t get me wrong, I love serialized seasons, but Star Trek is at it’s best when it doesn’t take itself too seriously, while also simultaneously dealing with serious plot points.

Basilisk ,

I’m just kinda thrilled to see Canada in the Star Trek universe. Obviously they’ve been doing a bunch of filming out of Toronto so technically we have seen it, but it’s nice for them to sidestep the fact that 99% of the time they get thrown into Earth’s past and they end up in California. Kirk “recognizing” the city as New York was a cute touch given how often Toronto doubles for it. Also technically I guess this means that the greatest tyrant in Earth’s history technically is canonically Canadian too.

Kirk being a chess hustler was cute too, explaining how he’s able to keep up when playing Spock in TOS.

Aside from that, the episode was fine. I like seeing La’an getting some development, and seeing her spar with M’Benga (and getting beaten) was nice since it justifies him being actually kind of a badass, and makes the fight scenes in the first episode of the season more reasonable. Also a bit more behind the curtain of Pelia.

A lot of the episode was just goofy “man out of time” stuff, which is cute in its own right but doesn’t really add a ton. But it was entertaining and fun, and worth watching again, so I’m still calling it a winner.

deepthaw ,

After the first episode of the season and seeing how he handled himself as a sparring partner, M’Benga should henceforth be called Dr. Seen-Some-Shit

triktrek ,

Toronto passing as New York for characters was so meta and hilarious.

vewave ,
@vewave@kbin.social avatar

It was a fun ride overall. Especially with Kirk basically treating the mission as a field trip for the first 20 minutes. I'm glad I didn't completely jumped ship after Paul Wesley's incredibly wooden delivery of "oh my god, what have you done" nearly broke me. Meanwhile, the romance felt forced and rushed to me, so I didn't feel much at the end. But the most shocking reveal to me: George Kirk... is apparently still on the Enterprise?!

khan_shot_1st ,

The romance stuff felt very forced to me too

Madison_rogue ,
@Madison_rogue@kbin.social avatar

When the cab pulled up to Pelia's cabin I initially wondered how they got across the border, and then La'an mentions they bribed a border guard. Pretty good save there. You know it would've ended up in someone's plot hole YouTube video, or a clickbait ScreenRant article if they didn't cover that.

This was another solid episode; even though the ending was gut wrenching. Who would have thought that a writer would shoehorn a ship between Kirk and the descendent of his greatest nemesis. I really love this series.

hmantegazzi ,
@hmantegazzi@startrek.website avatar

True, but as someone on Tumblr observed, they could have avoided that just by placing Pelia's "bunker" on Nova Scotia or somewhere else in Canada.

Madison_rogue ,
@Madison_rogue@kbin.social avatar

I think it's fine; I don't think it's a huge deal that this could've been solved by moving her to someplace like Quebec (Toronto or even Ontario would've been too convenient). Like I said, it was just a thought when they arrived at the cabin.

SnackingRaccoon ,

I thought about this too, it would work, but would have softened the big "Canada" reveal a bit. As a Torontonian I was delighted by the big reveal in Dundas Square

GuyFleegman ,
@GuyFleegman@startrek.website avatar

I liked Wesley in "A Quality of Mercy" but hot damn, he nailed it here. He is easy to recognize as Kirk and yet is borrowing very little from Shatner's performance. Wesley has managed to "echo" Kirk in a way that Peck and Gooding haven't quite dialed in yet for their characters.

It's funny—given that in both appearances he has depicted an "alternate" Kirk, he's had some built-in leeway to miss the mark and still be credible. He doesn't need it. This man can play Kirk.

knotthatone ,

I would like to see a Short Trek of what went down during that 16hr+ road trip with Kirk & La’An

CeruleanRuin ,
@CeruleanRuin@lemmy.one avatar

Lots of talking, probably. They probably spilled everything about their histories, and not just their personal histories, but the histories of their own universes. Thinking about that makes the ending all the more heartbreaking.

Devastm ,

Its interesting what they are doing but god damn are they hamstringing the timeline by moving Khan to 2022/3.

First Contact happens in 2064 pretty reliably. So that means this PreTeen Kahn needs to become a Tyrant. Rule over a quarter of the globe, I guess start or be involved in WW3 and bounce on the botany bay. All in 40 years.

khaosworks ,
@khaosworks@startrek.website avatar

It can still kind of work. Montalban was about 45 when he was Khan, so let’s say Khan was around that age when he was exiled. The young Khan we see seems to be about 10 years old, maybe a bit younger.

So say baby Khan was born in 2012 if we want to take Sera’s 30 years literally rather than as an approximation. World War III (according to ENT: “In a Mirror Darkly” but the years may have slipped) starts in 2026 and lasts until 2053 (ST: FC, SNW: “Strange New Worlds”). Khan could easily have fought in the war and took power in the end days of the war - he’d only be 41 in 2053.

Even in the old timeline Khan only ruled one quarter of Earth for about 4-5 years between 1992 and 1996. So it’s not implausible that the Eugenics Wars happen around 2048-2053 (Khan would be in his mid-thirties, and augmented) and Khan escaped after his reign was toppled during the Last Day in 2053 on a non-warp powered sleeper ship, because Cochrane only managed warp 10 years later.

In fact, having the Eugenics Wars take place around 2050 works better because Archer said his great-grandfather fought in them (in North Africa). Since ENT takes place in the 2150s, that only makes about a century between their births, which is certainly reasonable, whereas if Archer-great-grand-pére fought in the 1990s then it’d be stretching his longevity just a tad.

NuPNuA ,

Having WW3 and the Eugenics Wars switched in canon would make a lot of sense. Humanity goes to war and ruins civilization, then the augments take advantage and seize part of the planet for their fifedom. Then people like Colonel Green start purging anyone with radiation altered genes in the west as part of a general paranoia over “divergent” evolution.

khaosworks ,
@khaosworks@startrek.website avatar

If we take the chronology in “Mirror Darkly” as still valid, then Green started the war in 2026.

2026: Earth’s World War Three begins, over the issue of genetic manipulation and human genome enhancement. Colonel Phillip Green leads a faction of ultra-violent eco-terrorists resulting in 37 million deaths.

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