I think they'd be more likely to say homosexuality is illogical and repress it. Could make an interesting plot point.
The converse is that making a specific distinction based on sexuality like that is also illogical in what is supposedly the enlightened 24th century Federation.
They're not the ancients of the 21st century, who would be so concerned with such primitive things.
Disco had a lot of flaws, and most of them were the same flaws we saw in Picard: the writers just couldn’t write full season plot arcs that were satisfying and believable. This is made worse because each season had to raise the stakes, to the point where it just got kinda exhausting. Meanwhile the show just took itself way too seriously, without really earning my emotional investment.
Some of the were exacerbated by the production issues that happened in the early seasons of the show, too.
They went through a bunch of different showrunners/producers in that time, and it shows. Much of Seasons 1 and 2 of Discovery felt like four different shows all overlapping with each other, which did not help in the slightest. It started to find its footing in Season 3, but after that was also when CBS took it off of Netflix, which also made it harder to watch, unless you were willing to subscribe to another service (that might not even be available in your country) for the one show.
It might have been more interesting if it had stabilised itself and found its footing early on, but alas. On the other hand, it being what was basically an experimental testing-ground for a bunch of different concept gave us the short treks, Strange New Worlds, and a few other shows besides, so can’t fault it that badly.
im not sure how one is slapped across the face with normalcy but if you’re saying discovery didnt go far enough with the barely-disguised left wing messaging we usually see in star trek i agree wholeheartedly
In fairness, that messaging has taken rather a back seat ever since Trek became big, probably because the networks see it as a cash cow, and no longer give it liberty to take the same risks.
DS9 only got as far as they did pushing the boundary because Voyager had most of the attention, for example.
You don’t really see any new Trek show pushing the boundary quite like TOS did back in the day, to the point where it was very nearly cancelled outright due to the outrage it produced. Roddenberry even wanted to add an LGBT character to it at some point, but it was shot down by the other producers. Compared to TOS, Discovery’s representation and messaging is almost contemporary, with relatively little boundary-pushing.
Compare to that to the Orville, which doesn’t have that baggage by virtue of being new, and relatively unknown, so they can get away with more on-the-nose messaging a good bit more without getting into trouble. There’s no established IP and format that the network would prefer that they keep to, or stay uncontroversial so it’s still palatable to wider audiences.
In fairness, Picard is extremely upfront and honest that he has broken the Prime Directive in situations where he’s felt it would be callous not to.
And he’s generally careful about trying to make sure that there is justification for breaking the Prime Directive before doing so.
He was particularly put out about being involved in Klingon political successsion because it would be a violation of the Prime Directive, and he’d be wading into Klingon business, with no justification for his being so, other than that he was appointed.
Neither choice here would end, say, Tuvok’s consciousness.
Arguable, since the result is neither Tuvok nor Neelix, but a new one based on those two. They’re not active, seperate consciousness stuffed into a Tuvixian body.
And unwinding Tuvix ends Tuvix’s consciousness. Neither Tuvok or Neelix keep Tuvix as part of themselves afterwards, he’d basically die if that was to happen.
Are you claiming it is in fact equivalent to the standard “trolley problem”? (I don’t think you are, but if you are, I’ll add)
Not exactly, was more thinking along the lines of both choices involving an end to the consciousness of one or the other. Either Tuvok and Neelix are held in limbo/non-existent from that point onwards, or Tuvix is unwound.
If the point is even “arguable”, I claim that is enough to distinguish it from the trolley problem, because that argument doesn’t come up there.
But I am curious, would it not? From my understanding, at the end of the shift, you’re still sacrificing one life to save two, or two to save one, which seems like it would harken back to the fundamentals of the issue. Assuming that no cloning or replicative shenanigans takes place, either Neelix/Tuvok are retained, or Tuvix is.
That said, there was some leeway in that Janeway had no urgent time-pressure to return them back to their bodies at the time, unlike with something like Transport-split Kirk. She mentions needing her crew back, but that could easily happen at some point in the future, and that might alter the variables of the problem, since part of the trolley problem is that there isn’t any time to take a third option, nor get help from other places.
I asked this question sometime ago on The Orville’s subreddit, and surprisingly got mixed responses. I assume most here however, are going to prefer Star Trek, specifically TNG that its aping from. For the record I do prefer TNG as well, but rewatching The Orville, after you get past its kinda sucky first season, I really...
The Orville has nicer ships, for example. Besides the middle segment of the quantum drive giving me a twitch for being misaligned compared to the other engines, it’s cool and sleek in a way Federation ships aren’t.
In terms of progressiveness, I’d say The Orville does better. Personally, I blame the Star Trek brand being as big as it is for that.
It’s big enough that the networks would never allow any new show to push boundaries the same way that the original series did. The Orville isn’t established enough as a brand for them to have that problem just yet.
By in terms of tonal consistency, I prefer Trek for that. The Orville has a habit of suddenly having a joke in there that gives you a bit of a weird tonal whiplash. Trek also does that, but it’s much fewer and far between. They could be having a serious plot, which will be briefly derailed by the Captain/XO bringing up that they’re divorced, and arguing/joking about that for a time.
In terms of character design, though, The Orville does a bit better with variety, and feels a bit more diverse than Trek’s mostly-human Starfleet crews. Although most of theirs could pass for humanoid, it’s still a nice touch that makes the world feel more expansive. It was an inspired choice to make the head of one of the main crew a weapon.
But other than that, the world building does feel a little weaker than it is in Trek. Unfortunately, not surprising, since The Orville, whilst inspired by Trek, lacks the corresponding history, and I don’t think Seth McFarlane is the best world builder. A few of the details and various aliens seem to only pop up when they are plot-relevant, for example, and are mostly absent otherwise.
I’d argue that the Star Trek history weighs it down more than that. Even without the historical references, much of the shows seem to be held back by the trying to live up to it, or having to stick to the same formula. Enterprise and Voyager famously suffered from considerable network meddling to try and recapture TNG, for example.
It could work, but it also means that much of any social commentary that does show up is a bit hampered, since the network wants a safe, conservative star Trek show (and the fans might be partly to blame, because they also want more of the same too, so much of the time).
A modern TOS that pushed boundaries as the original could never be made under the same brand. It’s far too controversial for the network to accept, with all of its progressive and social commentary elements intact.
Not that it’s a fault of Star Trek’s specifically, just an issue with how big it has become. If the Orville became a similarly established brand, instead of Star Trek, it would almost certainly have had the same issues.
There are inspiring, epic quotes in Star Trek. Words that stir the soul, shining a light on paths to a brighter now and a better future. But, what about those bits of dialog that don’t have a stirring message, that you enjoy just because you enjoy them?...
The first few episodes are a bit rough. They make it seem more like a Rick and Morty-type show, which isn’t quite what I was after for Trek. The show does get a bit better later on, when they settle in.
One definitely gets the sense that there are so many senior executives at Paramount and CBS Studios giving notes as they seek to differentiate the shows that the creators’ ideas get muddied.
Considering the production issues that Discovery had behind the scenes, I wonder if it might be the opposite. The show’s creatives are being hampered by the executives, who would prefer that they kept to the standard “Star Trek Brand” instead. It’s happened before, with both Voyager and Enterprise, and the current model of the show is meant to be “A Trek for Everyone”, which would be difficult to pull off if all the shows kept to the same sort of formula.
Especially since Spock was often described by Bones as being a walking computer, and Data was described as an Android. It would be less of a logical leap than having Geordi be the new Spock.
I believe McFadden was fired, which was why she disappeared for no reason or fanfare.
TNG had serious problems in the beginning and had some pretty big flaws even as the show got going. Off the top of my head
You’re not wrong. I think the only main character that really had any development in the first 2 seasons is Dr Pulaski, going from someone completely unfamiliar with Data, and conscious machinery, to being an ardent supporter of his. We had a little but in Data settling into being an emotionless Android trying to learn to be more human, and Geordi becoming Chief Engineer, but they were very minor background tweaks to the characters.
Everyone else barely changed at all in that time, except for Lt. Yar, who went from being a living breathing person to corpse.
I remain slightly miffed about how Dr Pulaski, one of the few characters that received any development in TNG S2, was so hated by some fans that it caused to Diane Muldur to swear off of Trek altogether.
She might not have entirely understood Data to begin with, but she did become better at that later on, a stark contrast to much of the rest of the Federation, which would still be arguing whether he, or his children had personhood, and is the only Starfleet Doctor in RetroTrek to actively take an interest in and engage with her patient’s cultures.
I can’t envision early Dr Crusher taking part in Worf’s Klingon tea ceremony, for example.
While I agree that Trek is all about finding common ground, I just hope they don’t humanize the Gorn too much. While I’m no Trekologist I don’t think the Gorn become “friendly” until much later in the time line (like late TNG era). Someone nerdier than me please correct me if I’m wrong.
They more or less vanish after SNW. They have their introductory appearance in The Original Series, a few gags/cameos in Lower Decks, and the skeleton in Discovery, but that’s about it.
Just interested if there’s an episode of a particular series you find yourself going back to? Not necessarily “the best” or your favorite, just one you gravitate toward for a comfort re-watch? Here’s the episodes from each series I find myself re-watching a lot:...
I am the kind of person who enjoys “big weird” scifi like Stanisław Lem. Stories about trying to relate to and find common ground with something so alien that the prospect of even understanding is basically hopeless. Star Trek usually doesn’t do stories that, which makes sense as it often uses alien races as allegories or...
I rather liked it, and the more alien take on them, but I can also see why people didn’t.
Part of the issue is probably that Discovery changed them too much. Previous alterations to the Klingons tended to be one thing at a time, except for the TOS films, but even they kept some things the same, like their technology.
Discovery went with a bit more of a complete overhaul, with massive changes to the language (following the pronunciation guide more closely), and alterations for both their technology, and the Klingons themselves, which might have been a bit jarring for most, especially when people were expecting more of a settled look for the TNG/TMP Klingons.
You do have the visual changes for the Klingon Empire in the Kelvin films, but that gets excused as it being part of another timeline, hence all the differences.
Things like the Klingon cleave ship, and the T’Kuvma are massive changes from what people are used to when it comes to Klingons. Klingon technology previously tended to be birds of prey that cloaked and shot energy bullets/torpedoes, not cloaked ship-breakers that used ramming speed as their main vector of attack, and Klingon supremacists didn’t really exist like that. The closest we had to something like that was Worf, who was much closer to a Klingon purist/fanatic than a supremacist.
Although I personally feel that there was a missed opportunity not interspersing things with the various other Klingon designs of the time. Having a supremacist faction within the Klingon Empire, with massive visual changes (maybe due to overcompensating for Enterprise’s Augment Virus?), could have been an interesting way to add depth to the Klingons, and the Empire.
Especially if that diversity of thinking between the Houses is/was one of the strengths of the Empire. Each House was more like a separate power, and they simply collaborated under the banner of the Empire.
The greatest episode since Star Trek's return to the small screen. Listen to The TrekCulture Podcast - Tuesdays on;Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1wr...
It’s quite good, although I personally found the first episode to be among the weaker ones in the show. It just made it seem more like a Star Trek-themed Tick and Morty, whereas the later episodes tended to fare better.
The quality of Star Trek in 1997 was an embarrassment of riches. Some of the best parts of the Dominion War on Deep Space Nine, Scorpion and Year Of Hell on Voyager, and First Contact in theaters. It was a great year to be a Star Trek fan!...
I’m not sure that it would be, exactly. One of the problems of that time was that a lot of the series were samey, which the revival seems to be trying rather hard to keep out of the habit of, which would help it avoid a repeat of the same incident.
Star Trek’s level of medical care is far more advanced than today’s. As Beckett says in LD, “Doc will wave a light over it.” Yet, in Star Trek people aren’t shown doing hobbies and pastimes that are much different from what’s done now. Still, I wonder about differences in a society where people know they won’t be...
Assuming that it cost the same as Star Trek medical care, I’d definitely be more open to it.
That said, though, part of the issue is less concern over medical care, but rather more that of having enough time and money. You can’t go around the world trying new things, if you can’t afford to go, or if you can’t get enough leave to be able to do so.
As a TOS fan, I disagree with that. TOS might have had dated drapery, but it also had some flagrantly progressive elements, arguably more than many of the series that followed it. It’s just that the world has moved on, and many of those progressive things are either the norm, or seen as regressive, like the Miniskirts, Uhura being part of the bridge crew, or having an American, Russian, and Japanese man serve as part of the same crew, at the height of the Cold War.
Part of it might also be that they didn’t see Trek as anything more than “cool space show, with a whole bunch of scantily clad men and women”, and didn’t bother to look any deeper, not unlike Star Wars. It’s just guns, cool ships, and shooting, with the imperialistic allegory being ignored, or gone unnoticed.
But - like the diversity and inclusion in the TOS cast - TOS’s liberalism (social, not economic) isn’t something that the show hit you in the face with.
It absolutely hit you in the face with it, just in a different way.
Miniskirts, an icon of feminist freedom of the time, were blatantly worn, Uhura was always in shot, and Sulu and Chekhov were front and centre of the camera when on the bridge.
Consider the famous Uhura/Kirk kiss scene. That was less of a hit in the face, and more bulldozed with it at light speed, which threatened to get the show pulled in more conservative parts of America (ironically, the same state/s would threaten the same of Arthur, the children’s TV show, over Mr Ratburn’s gay wedding so many decades later).
You could not be any more flagrant with the rules of the time, and if Roddenberry had had his way, he might have broken a few and put an LGBT character in, since that was part of his plan for TOS.
Not much of a Star Wars fan, but I assume this is David Brin’s critique?
I’m not familiar with him, so probably more coincidental than not. But you do see some Star Wars complaining that the new show is “woke” and shoehorns things in, whilst treating the conquering Empire of the first few movies as nothing deeper than that.
I like the TOS/TAS and 32nd century designs for pushing the envelope for what a star Trek starship could look like, instead of just iterating on the same basic designs over and over, or repeating generic Sci-Fi starship designs. A starship that’s just a giant disco blob, a bunch of loosely-connected pods, or a space doughnut/colony, are all unique ideas we’ve not seen before or since. Even the Enterprise was unique compared to the rocket-ships of the time, taking a lot of design work to give it that iconic look, unlike any other starship seen before.
By comparison, a lot of series after TOS/TAS tended to mostly iterate on the same design. For its flaws (like using a millennium-old drive mechanism), the 32nd century ships appear to try and buck that with radical changes. Chain and Courier ships look nothing like alien vessels of the time, and the Federation starships are rather different, with ships like the Eisenberg class being tall instead of wide, compared to previous Federation ships we’d seen before.
Kelvin is just a fun modern take on the TOS, even if I’m not entirely convinced about the interior, and like Discovery, lays the groundwork for the TMP style of ships, with their square-ish nacelle designs.
Most of what works in the Star Trek movies evolve from what we know about the characters. Kirk’s love for his ship and history with the Klingons, Picard’s history with the Borg, Data’s struggle with emotions, that sort of thing....
It’s less directed at a single character, but I think the whole synth personhood argument seems like it would be a good thread for development.
We saw from Dr Pulaski’s reaction that even the most understanding and well-meaning members of Starfleet can still have reservations about whether a sapient machine is a person, or just a machine, even if they come around once they get to know them.
We also know from Maddox, the crew of the Sutherland, and the Voyager that some less well-meaning members of Starfleet see them as walking computers, and little more, until they are forced to see reason (whether they come around at that point is unclear, considering the Lal incident).
The Voyager’s crew even went as far as to try and solve the sapient EMH’s issues by treating him like a faulty computer/software, whether by fiddling around with his code, or factory resetting him when things went wrong.
We also know later on that while Data has his rights and personhood relatively firmly established, that ruling applies to him only, and not to any other inorganics. The Voyager’s EMH had to have an entire legal battle to determine whether he would own the rights to a book that he had written, whereas that would not be in the question, had the book been written by a biological humanoid.
There’s also a subtle plot where the Federation can and will use them as effective slaves, even if sapience is unclear. The other Mark I EMHs are used for dilithium mining, and Maddox’s reverse-engineered schematics of Data were stripped down, tweaked, and used to create a non-sapient synth workforce, despite his protests.
Section 31, the secretive illegitimate covert arm of Starfleet, had Sloan who really seemed like he’d done a lot in the name of the federation. He tells Bashir as much in Extreme Measures so it would be really cool to see some of the darker things the Federation disavowed or turned a blind eye to.
Especially since they believe that the Federation doesn’t go far enough to maintain their peace and balance of power by being as moral as they are. Although I’m ambivalent about them needing to exist, since them succeeding at all would undermine the Federation being successful without having to compromise its morals.
Like how the
resolution to DS9wasn’t entirely saving the day by convincing the Dominion to come to the table. The Federation effectively poisoned the Founders, forcing their hand that way
inadvertently implies that the Federation isn’t successful without their intervention and the whole dark underbelly.
We've been investigating some recurring issues with the user experience on the instance, and have traced it back to the way Lemmy handles language settings....
Kate Mulgrew told Rick Berman she wanted a gay character on the Voyager bridge ( collider.com )
Discovery will be the first Star Trek show in half a century to end without a single Jonathan Frakes appearance ( startrek.website )
Janeway’s “Tuvix” Decision Divides ‘Star Trek: Voyager’ Cast: “It Kind Of Hurt Her Character” ( trekmovie.com )
Gene Roddenberry's first sci-fi show pitch from 1955: "The Transporter" ( startrek.website )
I thought this was an interesting read. You can see that the seeds of what would become Star Trek were already growing....
Star Trek and The Orville, which is better/worse?
I asked this question sometime ago on The Orville’s subreddit, and surprisingly got mixed responses. I assume most here however, are going to prefer Star Trek, specifically TNG that its aping from. For the record I do prefer TNG as well, but rewatching The Orville, after you get past its kinda sucky first season, I really...
Space.com poses the debate-provoking question whether SNW S2 overdid the gimmicks? ( www.space.com )
Ann interesting, deliberately thought provoking 🤔 question for a lazy long weekend Sunday morning…...
What's Your Favorite, Not at All Epic, Star Trek Quote
There are inspiring, epic quotes in Star Trek. Words that stir the soul, shining a light on paths to a brighter now and a better future. But, what about those bits of dialog that don’t have a stirring message, that you enjoy just because you enjoy them?...
‘Star Trek: Lower Decks’ Cast Talks About The Big Change For Season 4 ( trekmovie.com )
Fans reacting to the announcement of Star Trek: The Next Generation ( lemmy.world )
It’s so bizarre to read this in the present, knowing how incredible TNG was, but I get it - the original crew WAS Star Trek to them....
Inside the ‘Star Trek: Strange New Worlds’ Season Finale: Evil Gorn! Shocking Ending! And Introducing [SPOILER]! ( variety.com )
The Galaxy Class Starship ( i.imgur.com )
cross-posted from: lemmy.zip/post/1211991...
Which particular episode(s) of Star Trek do you find yourself going back to?
Just interested if there’s an episode of a particular series you find yourself going back to? Not necessarily “the best” or your favorite, just one you gravitate toward for a comfort re-watch? Here’s the episodes from each series I find myself re-watching a lot:...
Anyone else out there who actually really loved Discovery's S1 style of Klingons?
I am the kind of person who enjoys “big weird” scifi like Stanisław Lem. Stories about trying to relate to and find common ground with something so alien that the prospect of even understanding is basically hopeless. Star Trek usually doesn’t do stories that, which makes sense as it often uses alien races as allegories or...
Ups & Downs From Star Trek: Strange New Worlds 2.7 - Those Old Scientists ( www.youtube.com )
The greatest episode since Star Trek's return to the small screen. Listen to The TrekCulture Podcast - Tuesdays on;Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1wr...
How 'Star Trek' combined 'Strange New Worlds' and 'Lower Decks' ( ew.com )
Anybody feel like 2023 could be another 1997 for Star Trek?
The quality of Star Trek in 1997 was an embarrassment of riches. Some of the best parts of the Dominion War on Deep Space Nine, Scorpion and Year Of Hell on Voyager, and First Contact in theaters. It was a great year to be a Star Trek fan!...
Would You Try New Pastimes If Star Trek Level Medical Care Was Available?
Star Trek’s level of medical care is far more advanced than today’s. As Beckett says in LD, “Doc will wave a light over it.” Yet, in Star Trek people aren’t shown doing hobbies and pastimes that are much different from what’s done now. Still, I wonder about differences in a society where people know they won’t be...
Narrated Star Trek AI Text Adventure Game ( netwrck.com )
Chat Game/Narrated AI Star Trek Adventure Game
Manny Coto Dies: Emmy-Winning ’24’ EP Who Created AI Drama ‘Next’ & Worked On ‘Star Trek: Enterprise’, ‘American Horror Story’ & ‘Dexter’ Was 62 ( deadline.com )
What is everyone's favorite era of starship design?
I’m personally a big fan of the late TMP designs like the Excelsior and Centaur, what do you guys like?
What character threads would have been good movies?
Most of what works in the Star Trek movies evolve from what we know about the characters. Kirk’s love for his ship and history with the Klingons, Picard’s history with the Borg, Data’s struggle with emotions, that sort of thing....
PSA: Lemmy Language Settings (Undetermined edition)
We've been investigating some recurring issues with the user experience on the instance, and have traced it back to the way Lemmy handles language settings....