About the bear...

So, I'm just assuming we've all seen the discussions about the bear.
Personally I feel that this is an opportunity for everyone to stop and think a little about it.
The knee-jerk reaction from many men seems to be something along the lines of "You would choose a dangerous animal over me? That makes me feel bad about myself." which results in endless comments of the "Akchully... according to Bayes theorem you are much more likely to..." kind.
It should be clear by now that it doesn't lead to good places.
Maybe, and I'm open to being wrong, but maybe the real message is women saying: "We are scared of unknown men."
Then, if that is the message intended, what do we do next? Maybe the best thing is just to listen. To ask questions. What have you experienced to make you feel that way?
I firmly believe that the empathy we give lays a foundation for other people being willing to have empathy for the things we try to communicate.
It doesn't mean we should feel bad about ourselves, but just to recognize that someone is trying to say something, and it's not a technical discussion about bears.
What do you think?

Allero ,

As one commenter stated perfectly well, the problem with "man or bear" posts is that in subtext it introduces the hostility and division towards men.

It's not just women discussing their fears, it's women signaling "men are more dangerous than bears".

And this rightfully insults and angers many men, as it is a direct attack based on a wide immutable identity that omits any nuance.

Such posts do not promote any understanding of the situation, do not explore any root causes, and, from what I've gathered, comment threads are full of people telling men to shut up, either because "it's not about them" or because "women's safety are more important than men's feelings" (as if those posts promote women safety).

This is not alright.

UnpluggedFridge ,

There is a book I will mention that will get me downvoted to oblivion, but it is very relevant to this discussion. It is called "White Fragility" and it discusses the following phenomenon: When vulnerable groups express criticism of societal problems, individuals will take that criticism personally and redirect the conversation towards their feelings. This has the effect, whether intended or otherwise, of shutting out the voice of the vulnerable group and forestalling any meaningful change. The book identifies this phenomenon in discussions of race, but I hope you can identify the parallels.

HauntedCupcake ,

Does it suggest any solutions? I totally see the parallel

Shalakushka ,
@Shalakushka@kbin.social avatar

My grandparents would say something similar to this TikToker about certain "kinds" of people, and I rightfully consider them fucking abhorrent for it. I consider someone who would unironically say this kind of shit to be the same kind of abhorrent.

exocrinous ,

Okay so what you're getting at is that this kind of speech is violent. It acknowledges a conflict and seeks to further a particular side through the adoption of defensive behaviours and attitudes. And you're taking a position that all violence is bad. But you're wrong. Violence, as you and I are defining it here, is a necessary part of self defence. Violence in self defence can put a stop to violence in aggression. A pacifist who is concerned with all violence, rather than just their own, has a moral obligation to defend the weak, using violence if necessary.

Your racist grandparents were members of the oppressor class, seeking to do violence against the oppressed, and were therefore contributing to the cycle of violence. But the woman who wrote this article, is trying to stop the cycle of violence by engaging in a defensive form of violence against an oppressor class in response to violence by that class. That's not the same thing.

blazeknave ,

If you've spent any time alone in the woods, any gender would fear running into a sketchy person. I've had bear encounters. Only humans have made me wish I had a firearm to protect myself alone in the woods. I'm a man that can handle himself, and I still treat strange men as a threat.

Simulation6 ,

I don’t understand why this is a problem. I would choose an animal over a human, man or woman.

JayDee ,

Seeing all these comments that actually get it gives me hope for us dudes. I interact with so many dudebro types at work, and only have so much energy. And then coming onto Lemmy and seeing the same shit - it gets demoralizing real quick.

We gotta get dudes out of their own heads somehow - make them actually think about how they're affecting those around them, and get them to expand the number of ways they positively affect their local sphere and minimize the negative ways.

pmk OP ,

There is hope, I think. I wanted to have sort of a meta-discussion about the question from a mens lib point of view. Like, this thing is circulating, it seems to be making many people upset, what is a healthy way to interpret or react to it?

JayDee ,

I think it's to have the conversation with those close to us
that felt offended in a measured, methodical fashion. I find that it often seems completely foreign for some of the guys I've talked to put themselves into someone else's shoes.

It is a slog quite often, and I think that there is some kind of training out there for having these kinds of conversations.

As always, it's about talking to these people without getting them offended. I agree with other leftists that it's absolutely exhausting - it honestly feels like some of these dudes want nothing but to feel like the victim of the situation sometimes. I still try and talk them through it when I can.

pmk OP ,

it honestly feels like some of these dudes want nothing but to feel like the victim of the situation sometimes.

A part of this could be to recognize that they too might be trying to communicate something, wanting people to listen. The stalemate of mutual lack of listening. It's really a tricky, circular thing, and probably it's hard to just say "shut up and listen" to either side, when a precondition for listening is having trust that the other one will listen too.
I'm interested in increasing this trust between people. I also recognize that there is a level of feeling dismissed within me that makes me care less about others, and I assume that others could have that too.
If we could figure out a way to be at least a net positive in building trust and listening, then, well, step by small step, reinforcing the mutual feeling of trust, that would be good.
But sometimes it just feels impossible.

darkphotonstudio ,

I'm a cis het man, and I'd rather be stuck in a forest with a bear than a strange man.

TexMexBazooka ,

What the duck is going on?

refalo ,

https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/news/2024/04/30/man-bear-tiktok-debate-explainer/73519921007/

Dasus ,

I have no idea what you're talking about.

DerisionConsulting ,

There was a thing where a woman said that she would feel more safe in a forest with a random bear than with a random man. Then the people who would comment on this type of thing commented, then the kinds of people who comment on the comments did their thing.

Dasus ,

Ah.

Thanks.

It might feel something is "known by everyone" when one sees a thing frequently, but usually, it isn't..

DerisionConsulting ,

The internet is large and there is no way that everyone sees all of the same things as each other, especially when most of the "conversation" about the topic happens on a different platform.

Dasus ,

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/d66e1dd0-9e3a-4ad0-aed7-f26745090b1e.gif

gimpchrist ,
@gimpchrist@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah I absolutely still don't understand what this supposed Bear meme thing is.. like I guess some girl chose to be in a room with a bear instead of in a room with a man? Was it just a meme? I have no idea what is going on or why everyone is so upset about it it seems like something to just divert attention away from something else

Soup ,

A bear is a known a danger and really doesn’t care about you unless you piss it off. In fact, loud noises might just scare it away even if a brown bear.

While most men are probably safe enough to have around, enough are unsafe or just generally give off that vibe that women don’t want to be alone with them and a loud noise won’t scare them away. You might “know” you’re safe but they have zero reason to trust you.

Sure she might get someone who wants to work together to be mutually safe and will make efforts to leave her be otherwise, but she might also get someone who stands just a bit too close, who starts trying to “help” just a bit physically, or even who starts to get frustrated when they don’t get some kind of reward for just being some minimum level of decent. And if they’re really unlucky they get someone who just sees the isolation of the situation as an opportunity.

The bear is a known quantity. The man could be anything and there are far too many examples of every part of the spectrum. At least the bear won’t sexually assault her even at the worst.

gimpchrist ,
@gimpchrist@lemmy.world avatar

Well that's just ridiculous.. a bear is a wild animal who will fucking maul you to death and eat you and doesn't care about you at all ... a man is a human being, and human beings can be reasoned with.. I don't knoooooowwwwww........ this whole thing just, again, sounds like a way to get the masses riled up about something that really doesn't matter and doesn't really even make any kind of logical sense really in the grand scheme of things... it just seems like something to argue about for argument's sake.. it's a good debate topic but that's about it.. be it resolved that men are worse than bears?? LOL I don't know whole thing is kind of silly to me.. but thank you so much for your explanation of it

wagesj45 ,
@wagesj45@kbin.run avatar

It's rage bait. It just a polarizing content meant to rile up the masses and make us argue and bicker. It takes some societal grievances and amplifies them needlessly.

gimpchrist ,
@gimpchrist@lemmy.world avatar

Well it sure worked haha even on Lemmy good old social conditioning

pmk OP ,

There's plenty of polarizing content, especially online. I think it's a good idea to talk about how we react to it. There are reactions which amplify the polarization, but perhaps also reactions that bring people together in understanding each other? At least I hope so. I just don't know what is best, to ignore suspected bait, to argue a point, to listen, to call out bad faith actors. I don't know.

AsherahTheEnd ,

I like how they took the time to explain it extremely well as to why us women feel this way, and your response was simply "lol nah that's bullshit".

I'd much rather run into a bear in the woods than run into a man like you in the woods.

gimpchrist ,
@gimpchrist@lemmy.world avatar

Wildly enough.... get ready for this one.. I'm a chick.
I took the time to say thank you so much for explaining it.
But you can't honestly genuinely tell me that you would rather be faced with a literal wild bear from actual nature, than another human being..... that's something for a therapist and not for the internet.... and if you're one of those chicks who genuinely feels that terrified of men, you need to speak to somebody because it's not natural.
And if you're one of those chicks that gets wildly crazily madly offended to the point where they think they'd rather be trapped in a room with a wild animal with teeth and Claws that see you as food then be around another human being with an opinion, you also need a therapist, because it's the internet. It's not life or death.. which it absolutely would be with a whole actual bear in the room.

AsherahTheEnd , (edited )

A bear wouldn't possibly beat or torture me or rape me. A bear wouldn't try to kidnap me and lock me in its basement as its personal sex slave. A man might. A bear would simply try to eat me or run away, it's predictable. But go off about how it's totally safe to run into a strange man in the woods as a woman. 🙄

gimpchrist ,
@gimpchrist@lemmy.world avatar

.....yikes.
Have fun living in your world.
So glad I don't live there.

SapientLasagna ,

As a guy, I don't know shit about women, but bears are absolutely famous for being unpredictable. That's why they're considered dangerous. Not like moose, which are dangerous for being gigantic and incredibly dumb.

otp ,

Bears also love in the woods, so it's pretty normal for bears to be there. There's a decent chance it's just minding its business. I wouldn't want to be around a bear, but I also wouldn't want to be around a man with bad intentions.

Humans are also absolutely famous for being unpredictable, fwiw

gimpchrist ,
@gimpchrist@lemmy.world avatar

Like just rearrange your sentence... men also live on planet Earth so it's pretty normal for men to be there there's a decent chance it's just minding it's business I wouldn't want to be around a man but I also wouldn't want to be around a man with bad intentions do you see how shitty that sounds when you say you don't want to be around all men? Because of men with bad intentions? All bears will eat you not all men will rape you

otp ,

men also live on planet Earth

This means nothing. We're talking about wild animals in their natural habitat. Most animals in their natural habitat want to be left alone. Humans are not natural prey or threats to bears, so they generally wouldn't want to fight or hunt a human.

don't want to be around all men? Because of men with bad intentions?

I think that's something that needs to be taken up with men (because it's impossible to pick out just the ones with bad intentions).

That's part of the problem.

The other part of the problem is the fact that being alone in the woods and spotting a bear minding its business sounds like a normal event. Being alone in the woods and spotting a strange man sounds like an abnormal event.

Bears don't really hunt humans. Some men do hunt women. And there's enough of them (and it could be any man) that a lot of women are afraid of strange men.

Take it up with the men.

gimpchrist ,
@gimpchrist@lemmy.world avatar

Another part of the problem is seeing a man in the woods and Assuming he's a murderer instead of thinking oh maybe he's geocaching or maybe he's hunting or maybe he's collecting mushrooms or maybe he's a photographer or maybe he just likes being in the woods or maybe he's going fishing or maybe he has a family that he's providing for or maybe he's an artist like there are so many other things to think of a man in the woods then oh my God this man is going to rape murder and stalk me to death I'm going to die. The 'othering' of men is an actual danger to society.

Men aren't raised by bears.. maybe we should take it up with the women who are raising the men.

otp ,

maybe we should take it up with the women who are raising the men.

Lmao, so you're just sexist, huh?

gimpchrist ,
@gimpchrist@lemmy.world avatar

Sounds like everyone on this threat is.. men aren't inherently fucking dangerous just because you are scared of them

otp ,

I think you need to work on your perspective-taking skills.

It seems like what's happening is that women on social media are sharing that they feel inherently unsafe around strange men in remote and unexpected places, and your reaction is "That hurts my feelings as a man, and those women are wrong!"...

If you're not dangerous, that's great. Your feelings for assuming you're being generalized are valid.

If a woman reacts to you, unprompted, with fear, I think it's important to understand the reasons why she might react that way, rather than be angry about her fear. Frankly, getting angry at someone's fear would most likely reinforce that fear. And I think understanding would help reduce the anger you feel.

gimpchrist ,
@gimpchrist@lemmy.world avatar

It's very interesting to me that everybody thinks I'm a man.

otp ,

You're right, my apologies for assuming.

Eranziel ,

I see you're one of the 2/3 of women who haven't been sexually assaulted by a man. That's good, I'm glad for you. But, as a man and in view of those statistics, I have to say it's entirely justified for most women to prefer the bear.

gimpchrist ,
@gimpchrist@lemmy.world avatar

That there is not true as well... I've been assaulted more than most.
I've been a sex worker.
But I've also been in the woods and seen what an actual bear looks like and did not fucking stick around. It's a bear.. I don't know what everybody doesn't get about that it's a bear.

exocrinous ,

Alright, so I'm on team "alone in the woods with a bear", but since you want to talk statistics, let's talk statistics and the heteronormativity embedded in your statistics.

The figure I'm familiar with is that 1/4 of women have been sexually assaulted. Maybe you have a figure that says 1/3, that's fine. But crucially, these figures do not say who did it. What you've made is an assumption that women only get sexually assaulted by men. Personally, I think that the vast, vast majority of sexual assaults on women are done by men. But not all. I don't believe you can transfer those two statistics - women sexually assaulted and women sexually assaulted by a man - 1:1.

Let me explain where I'm coming from. Half of transgender and nonbinary people have been sexually assaulted. That's double the number of women! This factor, double, is consistent across sources I've seen that investigate both figures with the same methodology. You might have a source that says 1/3 of women are sexually assaulted, that's fine, but the ones that investigate rates for both women and trans people say it's twice as many trans people.

I could go ahead and assume, if I wanted, that half of all trans people have been sexually assaulted by a cis person. That's the same assumption you made that 1/3 or 1/4 of women have been sexually assaulted by a man. But it's a bad assumption. I know lots of trans people who've been sexually assaulted, and most of the time it was by a fellow trans person. You see, trans people have our own community that's isolated from the cisgender dating scene as a matter of safety, and that means isolated, lonely people let their guard down around fellow transes and the victims can't get away from their abusers, nor are trans friends of trans abusers willing to give up a social network in which the abuser is embedded. It's messy and disgusting and it wouldn't be a problem if cis people just accepted us, but it's where we are. I would be wrong to assume all rapists of trans people are cis people.

And I read way too deep into your comment and got a vibe that you were making the assumption that all sexual abusers of women are men. You probably don't actually think that and didn't mean to make any kind of implication along those lines. So I'm just leaving this comment as a general reminder not to use heteronormativity to inform our statistical analyses.

TubularTittyFrog ,

and it's entirely justified for a devout religious person to avoid sin.

and i will think they are an asshole if they go around telling me how sinful and awful i am for not believing what they believe.

gap_betweenus ,

It's just a way to illustrate how a lot of women feel around men. No one is actually going into the woods to meet a bear.

kent_eh ,

What do I think?

It's fiction.

Don't read too much into it.

Adramis ,

How is the appropriate answer not to just kill yourself because no matter what you do, you're going to be scaring someone just for existing?

I feel like a product of a bygone era that should just...not exist anymore. Existing as a 'good man' doesn't do any good.

pmk OP ,

That can never be the appropriate answer. I'm sorry if you sometimes feel like that. It can really feel like a situation with no way to win. Perhaps it's not about winning. In this case, something is being communicated. I bet that there are different things being communicated by different people, but using the same words. Someone might be trying to say "things in my past has made it difficult for me to trust men." Someone else might want to be edgy because they enjoy "kicking upward". We don't know. On the internet, the loud edgy people rule. In real life, most women I've actually talked to are much more understanding and willing to see the nuances and how complicated things can be. If the internet people are getting to you, a good exercise can be to talk to real people more. They don't want you dead. They probably want good interactions. Maybe every good interaction makes their fear diminish just a little.

CautiousCharacter ,

Please don't do that. All humans are products of a bygone area. We have imperfect minds and bodies that evolved to solve problems that aren't really relevant anymore. But hopefully you can find some kind of peace inside that existence. You don't have to be defined by other people's prejudice toward you.

Have you tried therapy? I had to try multiple therapists before finding someone that worked for me, but I'm so happy I went through the process.

JayDee ,

It doesn't really matter if you scare someone you don't know. They don't know you either. Ultimately it's reasonable to be uncomfortable around strangers.

If you still scare people even after interacting with them, don't take it personally. Lots of people have biases and past traumatic experiences that might paint you any which way.

Just focus on being kind and liked by the communities you're in, and don't take a defeatist mentality over someone being scared of you at first.

solarvector ,

That's an interesting assumption.

If your first assumption is wrong then this is just a weird and rambling post. That is somehow about bears.

Feathercrown ,

Just look it up

quindraco ,

Then, if that is the message intended, what do we do next?

Fuck off.

When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time. - Maya Angelou

If a woman tells you you threaten her more than a wild bear does, fucking listen, then fuck off. She is actively telling you you frighten her more than a fucking polar or grizzly. Why would you stick around? Do you enjoy terrifying people? Show some fucking respect and leave her alone forever, like she literally just asked you to. As a free bonus, you'll never have to hear her say it to you again.

otp ,

Maybe it depends on the type of bear.

If it's brown, lay down. If it's black, fight back. If it's white, say good night (RIP).

On the other side of things, there's probably the context. Some women would never go into the woods at all, so if they're there with a strange man, things are probably going to get bad.

But if there's a bear, they're probably alone, and just need to leave the area. The bear lives in the woods (unless it's a polar bear), and it's probably minding its own business.

quindraco ,

Maybe what depends on the type of bear? Because the context is what a man should do when a woman tells him she'd rather be near a bear than him.

exocrinous ,

I'd love to hang out with a sun bear.

Sun bears are shy and reclusive animals, and usually do not attack humans unless provoked to do so, or if they are injured or with their cubs; their timid nature led these bears to be often tamed and kept as pets in the past

Definitely would rather be in the woods with a strange sun bear than a strange man. What if he tries to get me into Magic The Gathering?

SapientLasagna ,

But she's not telling me, is she? She's telling every man everywhere, forever. I can't do anything with that information, except wonder if she's calling for all men and women to be strictly segregated for women's safety. At which point you've gone so far into nth-wave feminism that you've arrived at Saudi society as as model.

quindraco ,

It's woman specific, because she can't speak for any woman but her, and her rights matter no more than yours do, if you're concerned about situations where you both want or need to be in the same space.

TubularTittyFrog ,

IME the women who do this are the one who are the predators.

so yeah, if a unhinged lady goes off on me how i'm a huge threat to her, i do fuck off, because she's probably a psycho. normal, well adjusting folks don't go off on random strangers minding their own business.

I hike all the time. Nobody says more than a polite hi, or a wave or nod. men and women, solo, or in groups.

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