He definitely improves as the series goes on. I think most of the hate comes from Season 1 where he’s a genius kid who knows more than all the senior staff of the flagship. He gets a lot better when his stories aren’t just him whining about how no one recognizes how much of a genius he is.
Was pretty skeptical about all this stuff, but it seems like y’all have succeeded in moving a good chunk of people from Reddit to this new place, which hopefully bodes well for the future.
Hopefully y’all will be able to keep moderation functioning well, especially considering that a lot of Folks’ll stay split between here and the Reddit subs. Like the biggest reason (IMO, of course) that r/DaystromInstitute is/was one of the best subs out there was just how effective the moderators are/were.
Was pretty skeptical about all this stuff, but it seems like y’all have succeeded in moving a good chunk of people from Reddit to this new place, which hopefully bodes well for the future.
As long as there is enough people here to have a thriving discussion, we can be self-sustaining.
Ahhh 90’s TV… So there was a lot of issues during the 90’s when it came to scripts. One of the issues was that TV Execs now acknowledged the existence of women but they weren’t to sure what to “do” with them. You can see this in many many shows but one of the things that pops up is you might have a strong female character that has a few really good episodes or seasons but at some point the writing flips to they want to get pregnant and married (not saying either is bad but when it comes out of left field a bit it’s clearly just tacked on plot).
The reason I bring the above up is that much of Trek (even TNG) women are treated in many plots as merely props in a narrative to move a story forward not as actual characters. Unfortunately this is also why the Federation seems so blasé to how they’re treated, because they’re not fully treated as a proper character. So, hilariously, the execs of the time (and writers) are somewhat caricatures of their own creations, the Ferengis.
Therein my frustrations with older Trek. I see and appreciate what they were trying to do, but their inherent biases were on full display despite creating a show about a better progressive future.
The insane thing is that even with all that they were exceptionally progressive… in comparison to what else was out at the same time. The issue of doing this sort of social comparison is that you really need to keep it in context with history. Weird example. The Honeymooners regularly had a punchline of threatening violence against one of the wives (The infamous “One of these days Alice! BANG! ZOOM!”), 10 years after the last episode Star Trek The Original Series started which (unless I’m remembering wrong) didn’t use violence as a joke.
Sometimes it takes a while for things to change… Other times it gallops along.
I know I’ve already replied to you but I came across this short interview with the actress that played Dr.Crusher in TNG and why she was fired from the show then came back: www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYsemEvV3-Y Oddly on point to what we’re talking about here.
I think my problem with wesley is that he got such a preferential seat on the bridge of a massive ship that probably countless other people had worked their whole careers to get on. It feels unfair to all those people to put a kid on the bridge instead of an adult in the middle of their career.
Wesley as a character is fine! I know Whil Wheaton had a weird interaction with the fediverse and in my hazy memory of it I don’t really blame people’s reactions, but in his ready room show for star trek he honestly has been great. He seems like he really loves star trek.
The one thing is, “shut up wesley!” became an internet meme, and understandably I don’t think Wheaton finds that meme that funny after a couple of decades of hearing it. When the kneejerk reaction fans greet you with is to tell your character to shut up… when your character wasn’t a villain… but just kind of an awkward kid who really was never characterized as anything other than someone who just wanted people to like him… it just feels like punching down for no reason.
It feels unfair to all those people to put a kid on the bridge instead of an adult in the middle of their career.
It’s partially a testament to what a prodigy he’s supposed to be, but it’s also an artifact of Picard’s friendship with his mother and late father, and a soft character progression for both of them because up to that point no children were allowed on the bridge with him at all
Trek fans in that era got hung up on some weird stuff for sure. I knew several people who hated Neelix for basically the entire Voyager run mainly because of that one early episode where he acted jealously even though he got over it by the end of the episode lol
The Grand Nagus sexually assaulting women, especially Kira, is never actually fully addressed.
Yeah, that was a weird one. In DS9’s pilot Quark touches Kira and she threatens him (“if you don’t take your hands off my hips you’ll never be able to touch anything with them again” or something like that) but when the Nagus does it in season 2 it’s played for comedic effect. That irked me too when I rewatched the episode recently.
Oh no, its Generations all over again. They got a second almost perfect ending. Thats a rare thing. Most shows dont even get one, and nobody but Futurama gets three.
Picard left the TNG storyline state in such a decent and settled place, feels like another story would only risk ruining things. Feels like the series is already in a good-as-it-gets state and can only go down from here, unless they go for total spin-off.
But I’ll still watch it even if it sucks, which the people with $$ in their eyes know so…
I really like the look fo the dress uniforms. Surprised that they never got Pike to the stand, especially after Una confessing that she told Pike 4 months ago.
Now that the cast has been reset, I’m ready for them to explore some strange new worlds.
I always thought the genetic modification ban was pretty flimsy. It wasn’t even established until DS9 since TNG had the Darwin Research Station.
I really don’t like how strict they made it in SNW. Why should humans dictate the laws for all races in the Federation? What happened to the Denobulans? Phlox said that they genetically modify themselves.
DS9 said that genetic modification was still allowed for the treatment of serious illnesses. So it doesn’t make sense for all permanent genetic modification to be banned.
Also, in DS9, genetic modification was more like performance enhancing drugs. Bashir’s modifications gave him an unfair advantage over other people. It’s kind of like someone cheating to get into a good school. But that argument also has problems since there are aliens with naturally superior abilities compared to humans. Vulcans have perfect memory, superior physical abilities, and telepathy, they would have a big advantage over humans in a lot of things. But Vulcans aren’t banned from Starfleet.
DS9 said that genetic modification was still allowed for the treatment of serious illnesses. So it doesn’t make sense for all permanent genetic modification to be banned.
The franchise is fairly consistent about genetic enhancements (i.e., augmentation) are illegal, while medical procedures are not. The Darwin station is the biggest outlier.
TNG overall never said anything about the Federation or Starfleet being against genetic modification. It wasn’t just Darwin Research Station. They didn’t say anything about it in “Masterpiece Society” either.
Dr. Bashir I Presume was the first episode that any kind of ban was ever brought up. They didn’t even say anything about a ban in “Space Seed” or “Wrath of Khan.”
Also, when Torres was pregnant in Voyager, she wanted the Doctor to modify her baby to remove Klingon traits and no one said it was illegal.
They didn’t say anything about it in “Masterpiece Society” either.
That colony wasn’t a member of the Federation, though.> Also, when Torres was pregnant in Voyager, she wanted the Doctor to modify her baby to remove Klingon traits and no one said it was illegal.
Also, when Torres was pregnant in Voyager, she wanted the Doctor to modify her baby to remove Klingon traits and no one said it was illegal.
He was not under investigation for being genetically modified. I think a key aspect of this episode and that episode is that Julian and Una were both under investigation for concealing their status as genetically modified. Neither of them faced any penalty for having the modifications done.
It is only Mr. Bashir who is punished for seeking out and obtaining genetic modification for his developmentally delayed child. Being genetically modified isn’t a crime and I don’t think it was ever depicted as such - but having a genetic modification done is a crime. And having one done on you prevents you from joining Starfleet in some cases. Although for all we know Ilyrians are given exception to genetic modification rules as long as they’re honest about it, but no human has ever gotten an exception so Julian lied to protect his parents and to ensure he’d get into Starfleet.
Which is insane. Its not my biggest problem with this episode but the revelation that the Federation has had like…violent pogroms against augments with children being arrested and what sounds like ghettos is incredibly bad? Its presented as an example of how “unfairly” augments have been treated, but that’s not unfair treatment, that’s borderline genocidal. It puts a way darker spin on the Federation than I think the writers were intending, like I don’t think even DS9 in its attempts to deconstruct utopia ever implied anything half as monstrous.
A beautiful title, I remember watching the anime Ad Astra a few years back. They had a ROUGH time.
Through hardships, to the stars.
You had your playtime, acting like one of them. Accept your dismissal, take your licks and go home.
Una: No. (Why not?) Because I shouldn’t have to hide anymore. None of us should. I know I should have done better. I didn’t stand up when I should have. I’m standing up now.
YES! GIVE ME THAT STRENGTH!
So it was either dishonorable discharge OR Dishonorable discharge with 20 years in a penal colony.
That’s a rough decision.
GIVE EM HELL UNA!
So La’An has an idea that the evidence against Una might have been illegally obtained. This is going to be a really in depth court drama from Star Trek!
La’An: We need to find out who turned her in. It might well be the only way to save her.
But Uhura strictly refuses La’An’s illegal order. :|
Counselor: Admiral, it would seem that the rules of Starfleet only apply when a captain deems that they do. (Robert April: Is there a question Counsellor?)
You have shown that you have been repeatedly willing to break the very first order of starfleet and you are hailed a hero. you can break the law if you so choose. So, hiding behind order and protocol to explain why you would not have admitted Una Chin-Riley to Starfleet is a sanctimonious falsehood, is it not?
And of course the JAG gets pissed off at that type of reasoning, how convenient.
Counsellor: My client did not ask to be genetically modified. It is an Illyrian cultural practice done to children before they are even born. It is done for survival and yet she has been arrested because of a violation of a law. But the Admiral has just shown us that Starfleet regulations are are flimsy and subjective at best.
Spock’s line about what una was hiding OMG!!!
Spock: Yes, I did get the feeling that she was hiding something.
Neera: What was she hiding?
Spock: An affanity for Gibert and Sullivan musicals.
A BRITISH TAR IS A SOARING SOUL AS FREE AS A MOUNTAIN BIRD HIS ENERGETIC FIST SHOULD BE READY TO RESIST A DICTACTORIAL WORD
Spock: Perhaps. Although I think it is illogical for Starfleet to punish itself.
Neera: I’m afraid I don’t understand.
Spock: The loss of Una would be destructive to Starfleet as an organization. She is an extraordinary officer.
Una: She is a Mentor Spock: I have learned a great deal about leadership by serving under her.
M’benga: She puts the lives of her crew above her own. Always.
Spock: She is a friend.
La’An: Family. Una is Family.
And we get more into exactly That.
Counselor: Could it be that you carry your family’s augmentations, and you believe that because of them you may become dangerous?
Una: Yes, I do.
OH MY GOOOOOOD…
Counselor: There is nothing wrong with you Lieutenant, no hidden monster inside. But I do know how they make us feel. They look down at us for so long that we begin to look down at ourselves. Genetics is not our destiny despite what you may have been taught. The fear of yourself it’s not your own. It was drilled into you. You’re not born a monster. You were just born with a capacity for actions, good or ill. Just like the rest of us… i guarantee you are not the the person who leaked Una’s true identity to Starfleet.
“Ad Astra per aspera”
To the stars through hardship.
…
Una: My family, we went to the non-illyrian city. You see, some of us could pass. We could blend in, so we did. We left everyone else behind. Our families. Our friends… We left them all. I regret it to this day.
…
I wanted my crew to know who me for who I really was. I thought maybe if they did, I would finally be safe. And starfleet would finally understand Illyrian’s better.
So it was four months in between Ghosts of Illyria and last season’s finale.
Neera: She believed in the best of Starfleet, and that through it she could find salvation from the hardship and danger of her everyday life. Danger she faced just for being born an Illyrian. Dangers born on prejudice. Spurred on by laws against people like her. But through her hardhsips, Una saw the stars. Una joined Starfleet because she believed it was the only thing that could save her life. She fled persecution, and within Starfleet she sought safettu. She Asked for Asylum and Captain Pike granted it.
What an amazing courtroom episode! Did a lot of work for equality in the current moment.
I was recalling a lot of the classic courtroom episodes too, The Menagerie, Drumhead, Measure of a Man. This is top tier stuff.
I also feel relevant to our current controversies.
What a beautiful episode. The message was great and it wasn't ambiguous enough for people to really misinterpret or miss it while still remaining an indirect allegory for current times. The allegory was clearly about either homosexuality or undocumented immigrants and I appreciate that people from either group can likely relate to this episode. As a gay guy I have to say I definitely did.
Also, the scene with Spock's "outburst" was hilarious and I loved seeing the (on the surface) emotionless Spock once again.
Overall I loved the episode and I'm very glad to see one I love after personally disliking the previous one.
The allegory was trans people. Hence all the talk of needing to 'pass' to be accepted and the wonderful lil touch of Unas child cast being the colours of the Trans flag
Ah, I’d missed that detail. I was on the fence about whether or not it was a trans allegory because it didn’t initially feel like there were as many similarities in her story to being trans as there was to homosexuality and being an undocumented immigrant but upon further consideration I have to agree. Though it does seem to me like it is also about those other groups I mentioned. I suppose it’s a bit of a catch-all (which worked great).
The way Illyrians were segregated into Illyrian and non-Illyrian cities except for people who could pass echoes the Jim Crow era of US history, with black people being segregated and some of them trying to pass for white.
The refusal of service to those who were found to be Illyrian is like antisemitic attitudes in pre-war Nazi Germany, or the refusal of service to homosexuals. Most of what happened can be compared to any persecuted minority, racial or sexual.
That’s the beauty of a good metaphor. And the ugly universality of bigotry.
It is not unlikely that this is the allegory they had in mind primarily, but so much of the bigotry and hatred depicted applied to gays, blacks, jews, women and probably more groups, too.
We're rhyming history, every generation we're trying to overcome prejudice, oppression and hatred against a new minority, only for some to conjure up a new distinguishing feature to define a minroty to be ostracized. It feels like treading water sometimes, can't we just cut through the bullshit in one go, but no, we have to go through all the steps, while some new group (or a subgroup of a previous group) has to endure all the pain this brings. Sometimes it feels like we're not really getting better. But maybe we are. But it's still too slow, it still repeats itself, and nowadays we might experience multiple such cycles in our lifetime, when at some point it took generations to get that kind of progress?
There were also parts of it that could easily be interpreted as Jim Crow era politics. Passing was a thing for Blacks as well. Splitting into two different cities reminded me of both redlining and “separate but equal.” Of course, history repeats itself, and this allegory could also be applied to Jews, Native Americans, and any other persecuted minority, including gay and trans people. Una’s whole situation could pretty easily be mapped onto a “don’t ask, don’t tell” situation as well.
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