I'm a big believer in "stardates are nonsense, and should remain nonsense," but there were efforts made to standardize them in the '90s. They weren't particularly consistent efforts, though. The full history can be found here.
In early TNG, this was the explanation:
A stardate is a five-digit number followed by a decimal point and one more digit. Example: "41254.7." The first two digits of the stardate are always "41." The 4 stands for 24th century, the 1 indicates first season. The additional three leading digits will progress unevenly during the course of the season from 000 to 999. The digit following the decimal point is generally regarded as a day counter.
By TNG season 6, they were going with:
A Stardate is a five-digit number followed by a decimal point and one more digit. Example: "46254.7". The first two digits of the Stardate are "46." The 4 stands for the 24th Century, the 6 indicates sixth season. The following three digits will progress consecutively during the course of the season from 000 to 999. The digit following the decimal point counts tenths of a day. Stardate 45254.4, therefore, represents the noon hour on the 254th "day" of the fifth season. Because Stardates in the 24th Century are based on a complex mathematical formula, a precise correlation to Earth-based dating systems is not possible.
The headings / bearings they use are all over the place too, remember looking it up and it feels like the writers just picked whatever numbers best fit the flow / cadence of dialog they were looking for
Not always. On DS9, when the Defiant was departing the station, the heading was given as 180 mark zero - meaning, traveling exactly backward from their current position. This made sense because when docked, the Defiant's nose is buried in the docking ring.
Yeah, some shows did have their own consistent-ish systems, but I think some shows used a system that seemed to be relative to the center of the solar system, others from the perspective of the ship (which makes more sense to me, like naval bearings) - https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Heading.
It was a quick lookup from a long time ago, I was working on a 3d space game and was curious if ST had a consistent model I could just use.
I guess when you’re traveling around faster than the speed of light, time and date stop meaning the same thing as they do back home, so it stands to reason that you couldn’t map stardates to any standard calendar.
I suppose it could go either way. That would be true if we see stardates as a universal system that applies anywhere and everywhere. If we instead imagine them to include encoded information about local space time, it makes sense that they might be inconsistent but always moving forward.
I am, of course, using “makes sense” extremely loosely here.
Because Stardates in the 24th Century are based on a complex mathematical formula, a precise correlation to Earth-based dating systems is not possible.
No, dude. Spoiler tags exist for a reason and this episode didn’t air that long ago. They are completely justified with their reaction. Moreover, you’re acting like the person specifically came to this community and started browsing. You do not know that. These posts show up on stuff people are subscribed to but also under ‘All’ new posts.
I’m not criticising you in any way, but I’d like to protect you from future spoilers and suggest not using the card view on your app. You can set post size to compact in Voyager
It’s always funny looking back at stuff like this. I remember looking at old articles about Catherine Tate becoming a companion in doctor who and people were furious - and in retrospect not only was she one of the best companions, but that was probably the greatest era of the show.
Iron man was a hail mary by Marvel. Their IP was failing. RDJ was a lucky casting. Given where he was at at the time he was a pretty risky pick. Marvel didn’t really have the budget to be too picky at the time.
There’s a reason Spiderman is owned by sony and the hulk by universal.
Adored seeing Scotty show up. I am worried about Batel being infected, as I love seeing a strong woman Star Trek captain and love her relationship with Pike. Lots of hints that the Gorn are not just “monsters”. They are the Borg of pre-TOS era, as someone mentioned.
I hate cliffhangers though. I agree, how long before we see the next episode, especially with the strike.
While a strong woman, they’ve done shockingly little to tell us anything about her until the last episode when we find out she likes tourism. But we know precious little of her personality and most of the relationship has been seen from Chris’ side. I think she’s been written to be disposable. But I’d love it if they save her and actually develop her more.
I hope she lives because I like her as a captain. She seems very laid back and I feel like Starfleet being huge and all there would be a few captains that are pretty chill.
I keep hoping Sam Kirk or someone else (even a female character) gets some space lovin’ going on. Everyone on TOS was much more swinging space 60s, and Jim Kirk was quite the lothario, but everyone on this show is much more traditional romantic.
I hope they can find a cure besides the transporter buffer, because I am worried the hundreds of people beamed onto the Gorn ship may also have been infected.
They’re also doing a really good job of playing out the long arc of T’Pring and Spock having genuine affection for each other to the point where we’re actually kind of going to be on T’Pring’s side when she finally reaches the conclusion of “Man, fuck that guy”
I think their are two bridge crew members where it could have been interesting if either was gay.
The first is Tovok. Having a Vulcan show its illogical to deny attraction to the same sex would be fun. The downside here is how reserved the character is, so it likely wouldn't come up all that often in the show.
The second is Harry Kim. It would have been fun for him to be interested in Tom but Tom has no interest in him that way. We'd get a few episodes, may even a season of Harry pining for him before giving up and ending up best friends. Then we get Tom trying to set Harry up with people.
I don't even think either of these would have changed things much overall.
One of the reasons that Voyage's writing is so terrible is because all of the good ideas got knocked back. For example the ship was supposed to get progressively more damaged over time, patched up with improvised repairs. That's why the engineer was a Marquee, because they were used to having to do that sort of thing so they'd have experience that Starfleet engineers wouldn't have. That's why she was promoted over a Starfleet engineer. In the rewrite none of that comes through and it looks a bit pointless.
But they decided that was too expensive, so they didn't do it. In all fairness to them with the special effects they had at the time, it would have been extremely expensive, but it would have made the show so much better.
Crew romance doesn't play a big role in Voyager tbh, gay or not. The only proper relationship we see fleshed out is between B'Elanna and Tom Paris. We hear about Tuvok's wife, Janeway's fiance, and whatever that is between Seven and Chakotay.
It will be interesting to see Harry dating men but I don't see a pairing on the bridge.
I think they'd be more likely to say homosexuality is illogical and repress it. Could make an interesting plot point.
Versus "suppressing our emotions - the thing we do constantly which essentially defines our species - is illogical". I really don't see that making sense in universe.
I think they'd be more likely to say homosexuality is illogical and repress it. Could make an interesting plot point.
The converse is that making a specific distinction based on sexuality like that is also illogical in what is supposedly the enlightened 24th century Federation.
They're not the ancients of the 21st century, who would be so concerned with such primitive things.
But I'm pretty sure Vulcans could get into a bit of hardcore repression of sexuality, only having sex for procreation kind of thing. Very in keeping with their characterisation!
Tuvok: Ensign Kim, your dedication to your duties is truly impressive. I must admit, I find myself looking forward to our conversations more than I expected.
Harry Kim: Thanks, Tuvok. Your guidance means a lot to me. There's something about our talks that feels different. It's like we're on the same wavelength.
Tuvok: Indeed, Harry. I sense a connection between us that goes beyond our roles on this ship. It's a puzzle that intrigues me.
Harry Kim: I feel it too, Tuvok. It's like we have this unspoken understanding that's hard to put into words. I've been thinking about it a lot lately.
Tuvok: Perhaps it's time we acknowledge this connection and explore it further. How about we have dinner in the astrometrics lab tomorrow evening?
Harry Kim: I'd love that, Tuvok. I've been hoping for a chance to get to know you better outside of work. Tomorrow evening sounds perfect.
Tuvok: Excellent. I'm looking forward to it, Harry. The idea of spending more time together and unraveling this mysterious bond between us is quite appealing.
(They share a smile, their unspoken feelings now out in the open, as they finalize plans for their upcoming date in the secluded corner of the lower decks of the USS Voyager.)
Meh. Looking forward to this show dying and making way for the good, new Trek shows, like LD, SNW, and Picard’s Season 3 (sorta).
So tired of Michael Burnham and her stupid “Magical Burnham Problem Solving Mary-su Solution Express”. Really too bad, because Saru, Tilly, Georgiuo, Staments, Adira, and basically all of the other characters are REALLY interesting in this show. Unfortunately, they didn’t relegate Burnham’s character for being a “get out of writer’s block free card” to the background and that basically doomed it.
You’ve described precisely how I feel about Disco, Trek is supposed to be about the whole team solving problems but somehow in any century…the destiny of the universe is all about her. Remove deus ex Burnham from the show and it could be so much better. Saru, Stamets and all are great, they’re just background to the Michael story.
Yeah the show would be so much better if they didn’t rely on Burnham as the “solver of all things”. Literally the first thing they do with her when she walks into Starfleet Command after the time jump is go “YO HAVE YOU TRIED THIS SOLUTION TO THE PRIONS?”. It’s like the writers can’t help themselves.
I wouldn’t be surprised if she has a stupid, uninspired speech that is a “These are the voyages” rip off at the end of the finale episode right before they inexplicably promote her to the Admiralty. It would be a fitting f*** you to end the show right in line with what the writers have done so far.
I like Discovery, but I have to agree. So many of the narrative problems could have been solved by simply giving the line(s) of dialogue in which Burnham solves a problem to someone else on the bridge. Easy peasy. Mix it up.
Where will this stand in the long history of Star Trek gimmick episodes? After all, this is the franchise that gave us “Trials and Tribble-ations”, “Take Me Out To The Holosuite”, “In a Mirror, Darkly”, the OG “Lower Decks”, and most recently… “Those Old Scientists”. Holy shit, that was just two episodes ago and in between we got the darkest Star Trek thing in years!
Uhura having to be the operator sounds like the most stressful thing to do that doesn’t involve imminent danger.
“Even if it’s not fully necessary.” That basically sums up every contrivance to get Kirk on board.
KORBY ALERT
Ah, spatial distortions, the cause and solution to everything.
The facial acting as they enter musical-land is priceless.
Acapella theme song!
“So… that happened.”
“Quantum uncertainty field”. That’s some Hitchiker Guide type stuff.
Ah, they brought back the Gilbert and Sullivan stuff.
I like how they are hanging a lampshade on just how BIZARRE it is that people sing out their biggest secrets and deepest feelings in musicals.
Good save, La’An.
“Surprisingly beautiful baritone”
It could have been worse for the crew. Imagine if Uhura had broadcast opera into it, then they’d ALWAYS be singing.
Shaxs would suggest blowing it up by ejecting the warp core.
Gratuitous zero-gee is gratuitous.
Oh god, singing Klingons.
Yeah, the Klingons would also like the “let’s just blow it up” plan.
Wait were those extras twins?
Apparently the improbability field also affects the lighting of the bar.
Isn’t K’tinga the later type of Klingon ship? Ah, screw it, musical rules.
“I don’t love rules but I think you’re about to break a big one.”
This totally is going into Temporal Investigations Kirk file.
CAROL MARCUS REFERENCE
Oh shit, David Marcus reference!
“I’m the Ex” standing as if X in a math question is a good bit of workplay.
Kind of surprised it took this long to give Celia Rose Gooding a full-on solo.
Grammy-Award winning singer!
A grand finale. How meta!
Boy Band Klingons was not on my bingo card.
Lol, playing the TOS theme as a curtain-closer
“You sang about lying to me.”
“Sorry, Earworm.”
All-and-all, it was a good enough gimmick episode. But it was no “Take Me Out To The Holosuite.” (“DEATH TO THE OPPOSITION!”)
The three Klingon vessels that got rekt by V’Ger at the beginning of TMP were K’Tinga class ships. That was less than 20 years after this episode was set. However, the K’Tingas did remain in service well into the 24th century, likely for the same in- and out-of-universe reasons that the Excelsior class did.
So… I have loved this entire season but I am not sure about this one.
I’m a vet with PTSD, and I’ll preface my upcoming comments by simply stating that maybe it hit close to home and made me uncomfortable. Maybe dealing with those feelings clouded my perception of the episode. However, the TNG and DS9 episodes dealing with PTSD are some of my favorite and are actually therapeutic for me, so maybe that’s not the case.
Ultimately, the message was dour and I resent it a little since it implies that there isn’t any healing that can occur from this type of trauma, which I believe is completely false. Sure, there might not be any healing for M’Benga as a character, but the thematic message of the episode implied some stuff I’m not really a fan of.
Furthermore, how is Pike supposed to operate as a Captain after both M’Benga and Chapel have committed conspiracy to cover up a murder? I think I will just have to head-canon this episode way. It’ll join “Sons of Mogh” as an episode I just pretend never happened.
I’m fine with a bit of moral ambiguity in Star Trek. But I think this episode crossed a line. Hopefully we will see fallout from this come up later in the show.
I really hate typing this but M’Benga went from possibly my favorite character on the show to someone I sort of resent. And I feel like Chapel is right there alongside him. And it made Pike look ineffectual as a leader- he really should have reprimanded Ortegas.
Plus, back to it again, lying about the blade is conspiracy and it really shattered my perception of those two characters.
Anyways, this is just me rambling. I’ll say something positive about the episode: I enjoyed seeing Spock struggle with seeing Chapel in distress and finally figuring out he needed to step away.
On M’Benga, I can’t quarrel with a thing you say and I haven’t been through what you’ve been through. But I’d encourage you to consider that he’s not a finished product. If this show gets to continue as far as it can, we know he’s in for a lot more change. Maybe he has to heal from here to end up somehow working under McCoy. The state he’s in when he hides this from Pike isn’t the end for him. Maybe this is part of trauma we get to watch him process from here?
I would have liked M’benga’s ending monologue to be less final. Instead of “things break, we fix them, but they’ll break again,” even just leaving it as a question-- “can we ever truly fix these things?” would feel like it leaves more room for hope and redemption in the future.
For me, this is in many ways a less dark and cynical take than DS9 In the Pale Moonlight and certainly the Section 31 references.
What was critical here was the difference between the journey of individual traumatized officers who had been forced repeatedly to take actions in wartime that compromised their values, and brought out capabilities they never sought to own, vs Starfleet leadership taking cynical action. It’s also a direct outcome of Starfleet’s cynical actions in having M’Benga develop the serum and then use it.
Starfleet’s postwar directive, and Pike’s insistence on pressing it with his senior officers, created the immediate crisis.
However, we need to take account of the fact that it was the ambassador’s own repeated insistence on confronting, engaging and attempting to recruit M’Benga to assist in his mission that led to the break.
M’Benga seemed to be processing his trauma and managing it as well as he could. He wasn’t at the point of exposing the ambassador’s deceit although he appeared to have been contemplating it.
It was the ambassador’s decision to seek M’Benga out again, in his own safe space, his private office, and own refusal to take M’Benga’s rejection that seemed to take the contemplation to action.
The cover up by Chapel and M’Benga is serious, and in the case of M’Benga this is the second case of his hiding something of significance from his captain. He’s an understandable but grey character, and we will have to see where the show takes him.
In Chapel’s case, we have been shown that her bright effervescence hides much darker experiences. It’s now easier to imagine how she will evolves to the very restrained version of herself in TOS.
I feel this is a very authentic portrayal of the chronic legacy unaddressed of trauma in individuals, how a military service and society will need to move on after a society-wide war when its individuals are not yet ready to do so, and how disasterous the potential outcomes when the divide been societal and individual needs in healing are ignored.
It’s not the 24th century Starfleet we’re seeing where there has been a long period of peace and officers can be treated effectively for trauma before returning to duty and it locks in with chronic effects.
I agree that it does not show Pike’s leadership in a positive light, but I find it realistic. What it does show is the gulf between war veterans and those senior officers who, while veterans of other kinds of conflicts, were not involved.
Starfleet needs senior officers, without direct personal history, like Pike to lead the peace and move forward, just as the western allies needed to find a way with some German leaders and scientists after WW2. But not every individual at the front can withstand the stress of that direct engagement with a former enemy.
Starfleet’s order to force veterans into direct contact with a former enemy was psychologically unhealthy and unrealistic, but a value-focused officer like Pike would not have the insight to see that.
This gulf was underscored at a personal level by Chapel’s conversation with Spock, when she could not share her experience with him and he could not ease her pain. The scene between them was an essential confirmation.
What I found interesting is that Number One had the best read on the situation. She saw the pressure the ambassador was putting directly on the veterans in the crew.
As the executive officer, it’s her job to manage personnel, to assess readiness, to deliver a functioning ship for the captain’s command. She accurately saw the problem and recommended action to mitigate the situation by reducing the time to deliver the ambassador to Starbase 24.
What she was not able to do however was to convince Pike to stand down a bit on Starfleet’s toxic order to require veterans of the war to show acceptance of the ambassador. Nor did we see her attempt to try to convince Pike. He was leading from his values and unable to really take measure of its impact on the individuals.
I find it interesting that this show is giving us episodes that show the negatives of Pike’s command style as well as the strengths. While we’ve seen the negatives in Kirk’s and Picard’s temperament’s and command styles acknowledged in the movies and in Picard, this seems to be the first time we’ve had it done with a hero captain in an ongoing television series when he’s in active command of the ship.
@StillPaisleyCat Although I wish some of Pike's dialogue had been fleshed out a bit to make him feel like less of a generic foil for M'Benga (especially in their scene near the end), I do really like that they had the lead character of the show be the one who doesn't get it, and in a way that's in keeping with his characterization (it ties in particularly well with last season's alternate-timeline Romulan episode, I think).
So I haven’t been to war, or suffered through it or anything and I can’t say I don’t understand some of the feelings but thank you so much for sharing this. Partially because it makes me feel more hopeful that it isn’t so black and impossible, that it is possible to heal and move on to a degree. I still agree with most of what you said, I felt sad, if not outright disappointed because to me M’benga’s actions aren’t justifiable. It would have been one thing to have Rahl go through Nuremberg style trials or something but the Federation did decide to grant him asylum. I guess I personally dream of a more optimistic world where it might be possible to forgive, but yeah… idk.
I’m not a vet and I don’t have PTSD but my girlfriend and I had some pretty similar issues to you with this episode. I think, thankfully, the episode doesn’t seem to expect us to think that M’benga was “right” at the end, or to be happy about what happened, and the final scene between him and Pike is critically important because I don’t think Pike is supposed to look foolish in that scene. Absent that, this episode would feel really gross to me.
As it is, really the only way I can work with this is knowing that the actual arc here is the enormous one that concludes with Star Trek VI, a movie that I feel only gets more radical with every year that passes and every rewatch I give it. Kirk’s realization that he has to let go of all the pain and anger in that movie and allow the world to move on and healing to begin is, when you get down to it, maybe the most optimistic and important message the franchise has ever really tried to express, and if this episode exists as a “middle chapter” between the war itself and that eventual endpoint…well…I can work with it as that middle chapter. But I still feel pretty crummy about it.
I agree with you. However I see the Klingon as the ray of hope in this story.
Even if the Klingon’s diplomat status was built on a lie, unless something else reveals new information, the Klingon was dealing with his role in his past war crimes in a positive fashion.
This episode has highlighted how shady Benga has been for quite a well, from his daughter on in. Nurse Chapel walks the gray line as well. I do like him as a character and the idea of a murderous “Frank Castle, CMO” is hmmm some good stuff.
I liked the look Spock shot Chapel when she said “you feel like” and he was like … umm … surely you jest…and let it go. Very cool! And great Vulcan logic in this ep.
Oh I didn’t know that. Is there some (real life) Star Trek connection that brought them together or is it just some coincidence that they both are on Star Trek?
This is often done for consistency. Especially (although I have to admit that does not apply to TOS) when also heavy makeup or prosthetics are applied.
In Voyager, every main cast member is wigged to some extent, even if just false sideburns. Except apparently the Doctor who grew his own pointy sideburns and was clearly not bewigged on top.
Robert Picardo talked about this on I think a podcast I listened to several years ago, so sadly I can’t link to the source as I don’t recall where it was.
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