You can thank all these dumbfuck democrats. they’ll get whatever scapegoat they need to NOT do something good, and then try to guilt you into voting for them again next time around. and the children will still go hungry. jesus fucking christ
Yeah blame the Democratic party because one shitty Democrat, and ignore the 50 Republican senators that are actually doing all this shit. Totally makes sense.
The Democrats enable this. They know exactly what they are doing, and have the same corporate sponsors as the Republicans. They spent literally billions of dollars to railroad Sanders’ agenda, but let Manchin and Sinema run amok. They do that because Manchin and Sinema are the levers by which they can either decide to make something policy or use as an excuse why they couldn’t adopt some policy, since somehow the two parties are always split 50/50 in some magical way that coincidentally benefits their corporate rulers.
The Democrats work with the Republicans to enact the corporatist agenda.
I’m learning real fast that “this is Lemmy” everyone hates liberals/democrats and fake hating Republicans, but never call them out directly. They just love to hate Democrats and hide behind “both sides” bullshit. They have at best a tepid understanding of how our government functions.
It’s actually more futile to argue with them than it was to argue with maga morons on reddit…
Another user mentioned that we’re being brigaded by Hexbear users. Which would explain all the poorly written, ignorant comments I’ve been seeing here.
Fun fact: when someone says “benefits will be used on drugs!”, that person is not a Democrat; that person is a fascist who “others” people for his own selfish gain.
Liberals aren’t that different from conservatives. When someone on their team does something that doesn’t exactly align with all their beliefs, all of a sudden the bad guy isn’t on their team. Vote people, not parties.
Joe Manchin is literally a member of the Democratic Party, won the Democratic Primary for his seat with the majority of Democratic Party Primary voters voting for him.
So just a little tip: people on the left don’t blindly worship the politicians and party they vote for. So comments like this don’t really hit like you think they do.
There is no one type of “people on left” or “people on the right”. I’ve met many people on the left that blindly worship the DNC and their entire agenda. Plenty of them. Just listen to NPR if you want to hear the latest programming that they will be parroting.
I have never met a leftist or progressive that blindly worships the DNC. In fact, criticizing the party is almost a defining factor at this point. The Democrats are a centrist party, the people you have apparently met (uh huh sure) that are blindly worshiping the DNC are not “people on the left”. They are centrists.
I’d continue talking to you but your snide “uh huh sure” directly implies you don’t believe me and are not discussing in good faith so you suck it if you don’t trust my words. Why would I waste my time on Lemmy making up shit like that? I’m not some 16yo edgelord on 4chan. I’m almost 50 in west Los Angeles and know many people that are hard left on any political topics, do social work, help homeless people and immigrants, support any social programs you could think of. But they aren’t highly political and don’t make their identity about politics, so they are easily fooled by DNC propaganda.
I suggest you educate yourself. Look into David Brock. They have think tanks, political action committees, and lobbyists working full time to shape their messaging. They have direct representation at CNN, MSNBC, and NPR to amplify their talking points.
All major political parties are is propaganda machines. To claim they don’t have coordinated messaging is like saying that lions don’t hunt. It’s absurd in the extreme. “laughable”. Ooookkkk.
Look into Correct the Record, or Hamilton 68. Get your head out of your ass.
i’m left wing as they come mate I just recognize that 50 > 1. if we want to dunk of the democratic party there are better people to dunk on that are more representative of the liberal failings as a group.
a pretty dumb one at that if they don’t recognize that manchin isnt the problem with the democratic party. you want to dunk on the liberals fine, I’m right there with you I’m about as left wing as they come but manchin isn’t the person you hold up and say ‘THIS IS WHY LIBERALS ARE BAD’ schumer or someone that actually represents the group holistically.
the argument is that Manchin is the designated “vote no guy,” blocking legislation the corporate donors oppose while allowing the rest of the democrats to say “gee I’d like to help my constituents but I can’t.” People point out the apparent lack of serious pushback or pressure on Manchin from the rest of the democrats.
What exactly is the Democrat philosophy LOL. They have no consistency. They are just the opposite stance of the republicans on any particular issue (except for sucking off their corporate sponsors), so they will left or right wing on different subjects. For instance they used to be the party of free speech, which is absolutely a leftist stance, but since the right wing has latched onto it, now the Democrats are no longer in support.
I am not a Democrat apologist, but Manchin consistently acts like a conservative Republican so there fire not a Democrat and I dont give a fuck what party is next to his name.
And free soeech rights DO NOT extend to genocidal Nazis and white supremacist shitbags. Those fuckers broke the social contract and as a result they get no rights. This has nothing to do with Democrats. The right wing DO NOT believe in free speech; they only believe in amplified fascist speech. They have openly censored the speech if others.
If you disagree with any if this, that’s fine…but you would be a liar.
You sound like a reactionary and you haven’t been paying attention. The free speech issues have spread WELL beyond the small population of Nazis and white supremacists, but go on with your straw man… I’ve seen videos of right wing journalists of asian ethnicity being attacked due to being a “Nazi”. Everyone you don’t like is a crypto Nazi, which is why your attitude is the fascist one. Unless they claim to be a Nazi, doing salutes and wearing swastikas, then they aren’t a fucking nazi. That’s why Germany has very specific laws about this.
Yeah see you act just like a gestapo yourself. You are implying that Ngo is a Nazi and deserves to be silenced and have violence committed against him. But he is not a Nazi. You create these vague boundaries and bundle anyone as a Nazi if it suits your purpose, even if they only associated with someone who associated with someone else that is a Nazi. Virtually everyone is 2 degrees of separation from a Nazi, so you are probably a Nazi by these absurd notions.
Once again, free speech is a leftist stance, and people aren’t Nazis just because you don’t like them. You disingeously use this “Nazis don’t deserve free speech” because you know you will use it against everyone, Nazi or not.
That being said, Andy Ngo is a loser and an asshole spreading the wrong ideas. Not a Nazi though.
You are disingenuous trash. Gaslighting asshole. Just say any garbage that comes to mind whether it matches reality or not.
Typical bullshit strategy:
Throw out some misinformation or half truth, like "Hitler ate Jewish babies on toast"
Wait for someone to correct your bullshit, due to it being factually incorrect.
Scream like a 11 year old on a middle school courtyard about “look at the Nazi defender” with emojis and all
You are advocating censorship and violence without due process to those you disagree with. You just need to categorize someone is part of some group who is exempt from due process for some reason, and then flip out with sneering and ad hominem if anyone disagrees with your bullshit. Sounds like fascism to me.
I’m certain I’ve done more for left wing causes than your trolling ass. You are the worst, trolls that identify as left wing and give the rest of us a bad name. You aren’t interested in facts or peace. You only care about us vs them and waging war. You probably think facts and nuanced discussion is a right wing thing.
I would classify someone who provides lists of left wing protestors to neonazi terror organization Atomwaffen to be at the very least “fascist-adjacent” but that’s just me shrug-outta-hecks
I don’t think you are correct that he provided a list directly to atomwaffen. I’m open to being wrong, but could find any evidence of this.
He met with a group that associated with Atomwaffen. So he’s fascist-adjacent-adjacent. He is a hack journalist catering to a shitty audience for money, kind of like Tim Pool or Jimmy Dore or Joe Rogan. If this is the kind of person who deserves violence and censorship then you are only proving my point further.
Curious if you are an anarchist or believe in the rule of law. If the latter, what would be the legal boundary between people who deserve censorship and violence without due process?
The legal boundary would be the lying, slander, and vicious radical fascist antagonization (i.e. stochastic terrorism) that Ngo engages in. These people absolutely should be censored by any means necessary as their actions ARE NOT “protected speech”.
They ARE NOT.
The fucking shitheads you defend make violent threats to their political opponents all the time, even pushing people out of races (which is how MTG won). If you defend them then you too are an anti-American terrorist sympathizer.
They are TERRORISTS. They are not “voicing a different opinion”. They are TERRORISTS.
So much to unpack here. Not sure what country you are from, but in the US slander is already illegal, and orthogonal to fadcism.
And how is stochastic terrorism equivalent to radical fascist antagonism. And how would you prove stochastic terrorism? Just decide in your own and then lynch without trial? I have no idea how that would even be enforced in a legal framework. You gotta give me something here. I’m not just gonna go with twitter justice, sorry.
You also moved the goalposts. The original premise was that Nazis don’t deserve free speech or protection from violence. Now we are switching to state department propaganda, with “the terrorists, oh my!”.
I’m not defending anyone, so fuck off with that bullshit now. I am simply trying to establish the facts. I only brought up one person, not a multitude. I’m not aware of any violent threats that he made.
Fuck you types that value fighting “your enemy” over facts and understanding. I won’t be bucketed as a sympathizer or right wing just because I challenge factually inaccurate information about a shithead. It’s such a lazy disingenuous fucked up asshole thing to do, to label someone as the outgroup for disagreeing with you. Fuck you, trash.
But you hella moved the goalposts. You all are really proving my point that you just have vague arbitrary moving lines you draw around people you don’t like so you can act like shitheads yourselves and feel good about it.
Let’s go full circle again for you people with the memory of goldfish.
I’m actually fine with that, and as I said at the beginning of the thread, if they actually take the name, wear the symbols, and walk the walk.
But crypto-fascists such as yourself take advantage of this one exception that is hard to disagree with and decide to label every fucking person that disagrees with you as a Nazi. Not much different from what the Nazis did themselves. Create this fearful vague enemy that they had to break rules for to protect your safety.
Sorry, but Andy Ngo is not a Nazi, and fuck you for the gaslighting
What do you think he is, then? Also, I cant help but notice that we had a huge rise in radicalized fascists as center and left people kept insisted g that radicalized fascists should have all the free speech rights while demanding none of their own. Weird that nobody is asking Fox or OANN to allow free speech to socialists, liberals, leftists, or even centrist Democrats. Meanwhile, they passed a law allowing them to buy up all the airwaves and spew nonstop fascist ideology and Heritage Foundation radicalism.
It reminds me of the joke about Edison creating a light bulb and then wondering where all these fucking moths came from…
He’s a hack journalist catering to a right-wingers to make money.
You are blind to the fact that both the “left” and “right” wing in the US are mostly artificial constructs by the corporate ruling class created to corral people like you into their pens.
The kind of shit you spew isn’t fundamentally different from the shit some right wing hillbilly spews about socialism and pedo cults. It’s all one big straw man to divide everyone into two manageable groups that have no overlap and see the other side as pure evil. You are a diddling kids under your Stalin poster according to billy bob deep in the appalachians. It’s just as accurate a depiction as everyone on the other side being a fascist nazi.
Oh no, I’m not blind to that fact but I do recognize when one is considerably more sinister and violent than the other, and that this sinister violence is highly similar to the same similar violence we have seen in past history.
I am not going to spend effort trying to relitigate the reasons to hate a right wing grifter who collaborates with fascists. Personally, if I wanted to avoid violence, I wouldnt associate with groups that associate with Atomwaffen, but that’s just common sense shrug-outta-hecks
If you knew anything about his politics and methodology you would know that he is in fact most definitely a fascist at least, and very possibly a Nazi. Also, thanks for proving my point
“probably”. Ok I guess that’s good enough for violence and censorship. The point of this discussion wasn’t to determine whether he was a Nazi. You got lost. The point was that your mob justice is stupid and deadly. You can just label anyone you want then go ham open season on. them. You aren’t even sure yourself whether he’s a nazi for fuck sake.
You are sure. I guess caps lock proves it. Lol. Half of journalists are stochastic terrorists, whatever the fuck that means. Guess we should burn down fox news and CNN.
The abject hypocrisy. I tried to keep this civil but you fired the first shot with the sneering and shit talking. Amazing the lack of self awareness people like you have. You have the memory of a goldfish considering the number of childish insults you already dropped.
David Duke denies that he's an antisemite, racist, or bigot.
The individual doesn't need to identify and tell others that they are fascist to be objectively fascist. Or should we take the word of David Duke that his bigoted beliefs aren't bigoted because he doesn't recognize them to be bigoted beliefs?
I wonder how many people are going to tell me that he is quite literally a Democrat before this thread has died? I’ll bet every one of them thinks they’re the first to do so, and thinks they won the debate when they do.
Joe Mansion and Christian Cinema are just this administration’s Joe Liberalman. Aw beans, we wanted to do a good thing, but this one guy is gumming up the works! If only there was something we could do…
… like kick him off his committees. Pull his funding. Pull his endorsements. Revoke his party membership. Revoke federal contracts and close military bases in his state. Anything. Literally just change the rules! The Senate can do that!
And that’s just moral, ethical, rules-and-order-and-norms stuff they could do. There’s plenty of evil (but perfectly legal) shit the President can do. Pull Mansion or Sinema into the back of The Beast, and show them some live footage of a predator drone flying over their houses. Remember, Obama established that you can drone strike US citizens if you’re the President!
Anything. Literally just change the rules! The Senate can do that!
The Senate can do that with a simple majority of votes. But when they need Manchin and Sinema to achieve that majority and neither of them are interested in helpful changes like fixing the filibuster, no. No they can’t do that.
so you’re saying they can’t get anything done, because they follow special, unwritten rules against getting things done. because getting a good thing done is bad.
another ringing endorsement to vote for the Democrats.
No. I’m saying that they can’t get things done until we do our part. We have to give them a majority that can make people like Manchin irrelevant. It’s our fault that things are like this, not theirs. Operating within the rules and not pursuing their lust for power is just one of the reasons we ought to be helping them attain that majority.
There’s plenty of blame to go around. The current political climate and the restrictions they’re operating under is not something that can reasonably be blamed on the White House or the current Senate Democrats.
Right, it’s my fault the planet is dying because I personally failed to recycle my .0000000001% of plastic waste that I didn’t ask to have produced
Everything would be fine if people like me just didn’t litter, no more pacific garbage patch!
Those starving children in Africa are only hungry because I’m neglecting my personal responsibility to donate to charities!
This historical moment didn’t arise from nowhere. It’s basically a straight fucking line for the last 90 years, the process is this way on purpose, the democrats are this way on purpose
Operating within the rules and not pursuing their lust for power is just one of the reasons we ought to be helping them attain that majority.
Why would I miss a day of work to vote for someone who is going to handicap themselves instead of using the tools at their disposal?
If dems kicked Mansion and Sinema off all committees, cut all discretionary funds flowing into the state, and Biden’s AG indicted Manchin/his family for corruption and Sinema for campaign finance violations, then I could believe they genuinely wanted to pass the policies these people are blocking.
Instead the dem’s actions are no different than if they opposed these policies.
Operating within the rules and not pursuing their lust for power is just one of the reasons we ought to be helping them attain that majority
So you’re saying we should support the democrats because when they get into power they won’t try to get any the good things they want done done unlike the republicans who will happily stoop however low they can to get all the bad things they want done
What good legislation? The Crime bill? Clinton’s Welfare Reform? The Telecom deregulation? Repeal of Glass-Stegal? The resolution to invade Iraq? The Patriot Act? The bill Biden backed to keep people from discharging student loans through bankruptcy? Watered down ACA with no public option?
They never codified Roe. They never codified Ogerfell. They never did anything about Citizens United.
Edit: Wall Street bailouts in 08? Forcing people back to work during Covid? Not sending people the $2,000 they promised? That bill crushing the Railroad strike?
They’re authoritarians whenever a minority asks them to stop killing them but when it comes to opposing fascism that’s when they slap the handcuffs on themselves and insist them doing nothing is the morally superior choice.
Unless there’s a contingent of people who would actually support the dems if they adopted the strategy of “literally doing anything at all to oppose fascism”
Oh no, we don’t want it to look like we’re retaliating against fascists
The worst is that people (in this very thread) are blaming the Democratic party. I’m sure most of them are posting in bad faith, but I know there are people who think this way. There’s an entire party actively working to undermine our democracy, but it’s those “shitty Democrats” that suck for making this happen.
I think the fundamental disconnect here is that there is one political party dedicated to destroying the government and installing themselves as permanent oligarchs, and one party who doesn't agree with them but at the same time treats the other party with congeniality and does little to oppose them. People want a party willing to fight the fascists, but democrats will fight tooth and nail to not do that, harder than they are willing to fight the republicans.
We can only do terrible things permanently. Good things are always temporary and we are powerless to change that. Children have to starve because otherwise politicians might have to actually do some work for a change. This is a very good and serious political system and we should just accept it as it is and ignore any alternative.
So it’s good that these programs were hugely successful and impactful to millions of people for very low relative cost (hint: it actually generates more than it costs) are just gone now for no fucking reason other than “it wasn’t a permanent measure”
We COULD have been doing this THE WHOLE TIME
We STILL COULD BE DOING IT
But no, fuck that, can’t help people now can we
Fucking liberals goddamn
You are disgusting, do a tiny bit of reflection got damn
So lets take it back. Strike up some legislation and lets get signatures. Keep calling your senators and tell them you want social safety nets, and to reinstate the child tax credit to covid-era functionality. Don’t stop. Breath down these peoples’ necks every day. Make them fear you will enter their home.
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