Because we’ve learned that there’s 49% of humanity out there that we haven’t sold unrealistic physical and psycho-social trends to. Women are tapped out, but there’s a whole new market in men!
This is not going to be received with nuance in “men’s liberation” (as a man I scoff at the very concept) but Happy Valley Oregon is in Clackamas County just southeast of Portland and even though they are a Portland suburbs they position themselves explicitly as an anti-Portland in terms of gender expectations. So you’re going to get a pretty skewed picture of what boys are expected to be, compared to even just literally a couple miles northwest in Portland. They went and interviewed the sons of the maga dudes who think everyone in Portland is a weak soyboy antifa cuck or whatever, of course those kids are going to say that they value traditional signs of masculinity and feel like they can’t cry when they are sad.
Happy Valley Oregon is in Clackamas County just southeast of Portland and even though they are a Portland suburbs they position themselves explicitly as an anti-Portland in terms of gender expectations.
Has the city council released some statement on the matter? Where can I read the city’s position on this?
Oh, sorry, were my feelings supposed to be hurt or something? I was trying to be charitable and assume you’re not just an asshole, but then you went and admitted it.
I’ve seen the world through many lenses, and the most profound moments have been with people who fully see and love me; that takes vulnerability and trust. Focus your time on learning how to be vulnerable, build intentional and meaningful friendships, and heal your relationship with what it means to be feminine.
That’s it right there. It’s about opening yourself and your vulnerabilities to others. Unfortunately, this is often perceived negatively by men. You really have to gauge who you can open up to as some will take advantage of your vulnerability and use it against you. That’s how you end up being bullied at school or at work.
I know because I tend to open up to people and tell them how I feel. I’ve built deep and meaningful relationships with many people, male, female and in-between. I’m not afraid to show my emotions and tell people how I truly feel. But, there have been a few times where I ended up being hurt. Not just by men, but women too. Or being mocked¸ which is extremely difficult because you question yourself a lot when this happens.
What’s especially unfortunate is that it’s not just men that perceive it negatively. I’m reminded of Brené Brown’s Ted Talk quote: youtu.be/psN1DORYYV0?t=16m37s
People think toxic masculinity is just a men’s thing. But it’s not. It’s a whole culture and it involves everybody, even women, who perpetuate the culture.
As others have said, it’s not just men that perceive that negatively; women do also. I can’t recall who said it, but feminism has meant that there are many different ways to be a woman now, but there is still only one socially acceptable way to be a man. The social consequences to men for being emotionally vulnerable can mean the loss of all social connections; I know that I lost about 3/4 of the people I thought were friends when I failed to successfully complete suicide. That creates a very strong disincentive to being vulnerable in the future.
I’m sorry for what happened to you. :( I hope you’re doing way better now.
However, there isn’t just one way to be a man. I think that’s the narrow perception that the concept of masculinity creates.
You don’t have to be any special way or have to do anything special to “be a man”. Just be.
For centuries, men have been defined through wars and combat, were dominant, violent, and were the main bread winners of the house and were considered the smarter of the two sexes. And women were considered lesser beings, unintelligent and unable to make important decisions like voting, and weaker. They were expected to be servile and it was allowed to give them corporal punishment if they do much as talked back. Men were at the top and women were at the bottom. That’s why any man who wasn’t didn’t have the set of characteristics that made them masculine were often bullied and laughed at. Through feminism however, women had nowhere to go but up and thrive.
Suddenly, men weren’t the dominant, smartest bread winners and violence became frowned upon. What was traditionally masculine or the set of characteristics that defined men, also applied to women and some became negative attributes. The lines between femininity and masculinity became blurred.
Women evolved and redefined what it meant to be a woman. And it’s basically to just be yourself and do your best to be a good role model. And honestly that could apply to anybody. Not just women.
We need to stop trying to define “what it takes to be a man” and just be. Anyone who doesn’t accept that is doomed to stay in the past and not evolve with the rest of society and live in constant frustration.
That’s it there, as a younger man most of the relationships I’ve been in end around 1-3 months in when I start trusting them and open up more emotionally. They almost always start ignoring me, ghost me or tell me it’s not working out.
It makes you really just lose confidence in yourself as a person, when you’re reserved they want you they want your body, once you open up and you’re vulnerable even once everything changes all of the sudden.
I’m lucky to have a girlfriend who doesn’t think like that, the fact that she is part of LGBT community probably helps.
What I see in the article is that the devide is between professional and social settings.
In the educational or professional space lots has been done and a lot of progress has been made, so much so that the young women interrogated didn’t feel like sex was an obstacle in those areas.
In the social, or romantic sphere though things still seem largely unchanged with men and women still in very classic gender roles.
I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that if things haven’t moved as much in these spheres, it’s because there’s less pressure to achieve equality here. This could be due to the fact that inspite of the issues women face there is still an advantage to their place in social circles and romantic relationships and as such feminism hasn’t touched on them as much, or it could be that some of the issues have a more biological component that we will need to accommodate and compensate for rather than trying to simply level the playing field.
I agree with your overall conclusion, but not with your theory. Yes men and women have more equality in education and professional settings. However, women have changed the social and romantic spheres through feminism SIGNIFICANTLY. The household division of labor and the power dynamics in a relationship are two pretty big examples of change. Yes, women haven’t changed the systems that benefit them. I don’t think that’s out of a desire to “maintain a benefit”. I think it’s because it is hard to see a system that doesn’t hurt you, or one that benefits you. That’s the whole concept of privilege: the benefits are invisible to those that benefit. These aspects of patriarchy hurt men, and it is therefore men who must demand and create change, to take down the patriarchal systems that hurt us.
We just never noticed because before because on the whole cis straight white men benefited and everyone else suffered. Now that everyone is taking apart all the systems that hurt them (often to our benefit), all that’s left are the parts that hurt us (sometimes to the benefit of others). We just need to keep taking the patriarchy apart!
As a minor example supporting a lot of what’s in that article, my wife went out to hang with a friend of hers, and I hung out with a buddy for a couple of hours. When she came home she asked me how he is, and I said, “I don’t know, I didn’t ask”. She seemed shocked and can’t understand why I say we don’t have those kinds of conversations.
There’s a fascinating history for why there may have been significant differences throughout history but they seem to have far more to do with the state of the medical establishment and their willingness to marginalize certain people than anything else.
I believe that’s why the suicide rate in men is so much higher. I recently saw that men are four times more likely to commit suicide than women.
That’s accurate, but doesn’t convey they entire picture accurately.
Women attempt suicide at a significantly higher rate than men. The ways women tend to attempt suicide are the ways that are least likely to leave a significant mess; overdosing, hanging, drowning, cutting wrists in a bathtub, etc. Men that attempt suicide are more likely to use methods with a high probability of success, like jumping or firearms. At one time, women’s incomplete attempts were deemed to be a “cry for help” rather sincere suicide attempts, but this is not correct.
oh come on 4:1 consistently on an almost global scale is way too far to say that all of these women’s attempts are sincere, 4:1 is batshit. it’s the same as when someone says ‘ive attempted ten times’, cause no they didnt, if they did genuinely theyd certainly be dead. theyre not ‘cries for help’, theyre more like them getting internal validation for their feelings. garbaj on youtube made a great video about the romantising of alcholism but it applies here too. i know what i said is a tough pill to swallow but thats the cold truth. im not saying women en masse arent depressed or that theyre doing it for attention, i am saying far less of them are sincerely suicidal and want internal validation of their depression. same shit with sh, it becomes a contest of who can hurt themselves the most as you dont feel your pain is legitmate. people also do this wjth the whole ‘i only got 4 hours sleep’ ‘i only got 2 shut up’ ‘my life is harder, you had it easy’ ‘i drink 4 beers a day’ ‘yeah wrll i drink a bottle of vodka’. people may or may not say this stuff out loud but people definitely fucking feel it deep down and start hurting themselves to feel like their emotions are justified. people need to get that someone having it ‘worse’ or ‘better’ means jackshit to your feelings, the whole ‘be grateful’ for what you have cause ‘a kid in africa…’ narrative is such a fucking dogshit way of thinking and leads to this shit by undermining and delegitmising feelings. if youre unhappy, you dont need to prove it. just cause someone needs alcohol to cope doesnt mean their circumstances are worse / feelings are more valid (those two things do not directly impact one another, dont think i mean that). even if their feelings were ‘more valid’ somehow, why the fuck does that matter to yours. this isnt some sucide competition, your depression is independent of theirs, they have no relationship.
So all those men who die from suicide matter less?
At what point do you realize that you’re talking about other human being’s lives and stop using them as a scorecard?
And who decided they weren’t “cries for help”? I only ask because of the recent attempts by feminists to cover up the fact that the majority of the homeless are men by (1) giving homeless stats by every dmeographic except “men” and (2) fabricating the category of the “hidden homeless” (i.e., women who live in homes that aren’t theirs…but still live in homes).
Men aren’t “broken” just because we interact differently than women. It may be news to that trans man, but we don’t have the same emotional needs as women. We interact in ways that work for us. It is fashionable today to refer to all masculinity as toxic, but we are not the same as women, hard stop. Stop trying to pretend that we are.
As a married cis man moving towards his 40s, I can only confirm from my perspective that the male-to-male friendship experience seems broken.
First of all, in college I learned about the performative nature of gender and that gave me the tools I needed to push back against social pressure. I wear what’s comfortable, I try to be considate towards others, I talk about emotions, and I do what sounds fun without a care about whether it makes me “feminine” or “gay”. I feel that pushing against gender performance expectations has made me a better and fulfilled person.
But male-male friendships are still really hard, and I don’t get it. I’ve lost all of mine, for various reasons. Some of us got busy with careers, families, or whatever other reason. I’ve reached out now, multiple times, over the last few years, to old male friends and coworkers that I worked with for 5+ years.
The conversation starts with a list of accomplishments. I congratulate them, so glad they’re doing well. We’re both pretty happy in careers too.
I ask how they’re doing, what do they do for fun, you still with that same girl? Fine. Same old. Uh huh.
I suggest that maybe we should do something sometime. Play disc golf. Play some games. Hang out. Meet somewhere. Bring your kids if you want, I’d love to meet them…and at this point they get distant and eventually ghost me.
After a few instances of this, I started to wonder if there’s something wrong with me. Maybe they didn’t like me. Maybe I said something wrong. But there was one other instance. A woman I worked with for like 9 months. I called her once to ask for a job reference. And we ended up talking for an hour about our lives, our SOs, life goals etc. Before I could ask, she ended up suggesting that hang out and bring our SOs.
The only male friends I have right now are the male SOs of female friends or my wife’s girl friends.
Some of the most fulfilling friend groups we’ve had since were groups with LGBT and NB folks. And I think that’s because, even though gender performance is absolutely an important thing in these groups, there’s less pressure for us, a cis couple, to “perform” in a certain way. Our conversations are more real and liberated. It’s less anxious and competitive. But at the same time, those friendships eventually end because I don’t they can really connect with us - like, we’re still outsiders and so there’s a bit of a block. I understand, but it sucks.
Because we try to connect with cis men, or even couples, in our area, we either get standoffishness or competitions. Like, we’re getting evaluated for our performance of gender / society / life expectations. My wife and I have careers, no kids, and we’re fine, but we’re also trying to explore who we are outside that. And new cis friendships at our age seems to be less about connecting and doing fun things and more about bragging about accomplishments or complaining about the lack of them over coffee.
And its so hard to find any cis men that are just fucking chill and maybe tired of all the anxiety and social pressure around masculinity and just willing to be a person rather than a “man”.
Friend. Compatriot. Denizen of the internet. Thank you for reaching out, for telling me your story. But yours is an example of one of the many attitudes in men that frustrate me to no end and keep us all lonely.
You are not lonely because of your problems. Instead, you’re allowing your problems to excuse your lonliness.
Listen to yourself, “folks like me are just destined to be forever alone”. No you’re not. If everyone who said that on the internet decided to get together, we’d have conventions that rival comic con. It’s not impossible, you can overcome it, and you deserve to have a social life.
I get it. It’s hard. I’ve been there. I am also an introvert that suffers from social anxiety disorder. It takes a monumental effort and a lot of mental gymnastics for me to put myself in social situations. But I force myself into uncomfortable situations because I know it is good for me.
So enough berating you. What do you do?
In regards to finding a partner, my best advice is to work on yourself first. Women typically don’t care that much about physical appearance but they also don’t want to dive into a depressive spiral. A codependent man is an unattractive man. Work on the things you don’t like about yourself. And once you are happier and a little more sure of yourself, love will come naturally.
My best advice is to get a therapist. I’m fucking serious. Because when you are working on yourself, no matter how mentally healthy you are, you will get yourself in ruts that block any progress. And a therapist has the tools to get you out of it. But also because you can tell them your goal (have a social life) and your blocks (introvert, etc.) and then they can help you craft a plan. They’re like a personal trainer for your brain.
“A therapist is expensive” - not necessarily. Talk to your primary care doctor. Tell them you’d like to talk to a therapist. They will give you a referral and your insurance will cover part of it, guaranteed. If it’s still too expensive, use a service like Betterhelp. They’re not perfect, but it’s better than nothing. Regardless, get a THERAPIST not a psychologist. A psychologist can prescribe drugs and you don’t need that until your therapist suggests it.
But most men won’t take that advice no matter what I say. So the only other advice I can offer is to do the work. Look for local events or get togethers in your area. Look for sub to Lemmy / Reddit groups dedicated to your town or area. Look for Discord groups local to your region. Look for book clubs or crafting groups. And look beyond your typical interests. You never know, you might find a new hobby and new friends.
Then, go to events / get togethers. Force yourself to talk to people. Be uncomfortable. Truly. It’ll suck at first but people will respond if you engage - remember that people are there because they want to meet people. Awkwardness is totally okay.
Regardless, every time you’re tempted to say “folks like me are destined to be forever alone” replace that with “I have decided to be forever alone.” Come on man, you can do it. I believe you can. You deserve a social life.
It's not so much the contradictory expectations that bother me, it's how success and failure are framed in modern society. The messaging is that for cis white men success should be externalized and failure should be internalized while for everyone not cis white and male it's the opposite. The messaging is that the system is built for the benefit of cis white men so when they succeed it's because the system pushed them to success and when they fail they do so in spite of the system pushing them to succeed so their failures are do to some particular flaw within themselves. The system is built for the benefit of cis white men so when someone who isn't cis white and male succeeds they do so despite the system pushing them to fail so the success is because of some special strength within themselves and when they fail it's because the system pushed them to failure.
There is truth to the premise that the system is built for the benefit of cis white men but the system doesn't push cis white men to succeed, especially not poor and working class men. It does give cis white men advantages but it does so primarily by creating additional barriers for people who aren't cis white and male. Your parents economic status is the most reliable indicator for success.
In general as you have said I think it’s wild that we try to individualise success and failures so much when the economic position of our parents is the most reliable predictor for success.
Thanks for sharing, I haven’t thought about this perspective in a long time!
Always love to see FD Signifier here. Overall solid takes on where things stand with a fair amount of historical context that is easily forgotten. The survey discussed early in the video has actually come up here before. Previous discussion can be found here
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