Then, if that is the message intended, what do we do next?
Fuck off.
When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time. - Maya Angelou
If a woman tells you you threaten her more than a wild bear does, fucking listen, then fuck off. She is actively telling you you frighten her more than a fucking polar or grizzly. Why would you stick around? Do you enjoy terrifying people? Show some fucking respect and leave her alone forever, like she literally just asked you to. As a free bonus, you'll never have to hear her say it to you again.
If it's brown, lay down. If it's black, fight back. If it's white, say good night (RIP).
On the other side of things, there's probably the context. Some women would never go into the woods at all, so if they're there with a strange man, things are probably going to get bad.
But if there's a bear, they're probably alone, and just need to leave the area. The bear lives in the woods (unless it's a polar bear), and it's probably minding its own business.
Sun bears are shy and reclusive animals, and usually do not attack humans unless provoked to do so, or if they are injured or with their cubs; their timid nature led these bears to be often tamed and kept as pets in the past
Definitely would rather be in the woods with a strange sun bear than a strange man. What if he tries to get me into Magic The Gathering?
But she's not telling me, is she? She's telling every man everywhere, forever. I can't do anything with that information, except wonder if she's calling for all men and women to be strictly segregated for women's safety. At which point you've gone so far into nth-wave feminism that you've arrived at Saudi society as as model.
It's woman specific, because she can't speak for any woman but her, and her rights matter no more than yours do, if you're concerned about situations where you both want or need to be in the same space.
IME the women who do this are the one who are the predators.
so yeah, if a unhinged lady goes off on me how i'm a huge threat to her, i do fuck off, because she's probably a psycho. normal, well adjusting folks don't go off on random strangers minding their own business.
I hike all the time. Nobody says more than a polite hi, or a wave or nod. men and women, solo, or in groups.
i had to google this because i am not a tiktok-er, and apparently women (? sample size?) are commonly stating that they would rather encounter a bear than a man if they were alone in the woods
interesting point that men often also chose the bear for the question of if they would rather have their wife / daughter stuck in the woods with a bear or a man, so that says a lot about men, as well, i think
we can derive some other mildly interesting points from this, like viewing sexual violence as potentially worse than non-sexual but fatal violence. or like, that one might have to live with societal judgement of having been sexually assaulted because there's still a lot of assumptions that you initiated it somehow (rape culture) vs people universally having sympathy for the victim of an animal attack
overall, the unfortunate reality is that women generally view men or people who look like men as dangerous. i'm a transgender man and i've observed this phenomenon in a very real way as women have gone from generally friendly or neutral to detached. it sucks, but it's not personal
however, if this really bothers you, there are actually some things you can do to help women feel more comfortable around you. this is not like... a guarantee. at the end of the day, you're gonna have to live with jumpscaring some women if you round a corner too quick at them. that's how life is. but, if you want to give them some signs you are not a violent person, not as a way to trick them into trusting you, but as a genuine attempt to help them feel safe:
if you change your style to be more feminine, even in subtle ways, like wearing a pink shirt or pink shoes. if you have a man purse. you don't really need to go full femme but if you express yourself in a way that makes you look like someone secure in your masculinity (actual), it will help women understand you're not really a threat
which i think, generally, reflects that women understand that patriarchy isn't about men as a whole, but rather that most men haven't confronted the ideas they were raised with in order to "be a man", and those are the dangerous ideas they need to avoid to be safe
i think there is also an idea that expressing yourself as a softer or more feminine man will make it harder for you to get laid, and i think this may be true. however, i would suggest that women who only wanna fuck you because you're traditionally masculine are not really the women you wanna be fucking, because they're (probably) going to bring their own ideas of toxic masculinity to enforce on you. those are the women who are more concerned with whether or not e.g. you can change the oil on their car, that you are a "real man", and hopefully it goes without saying that those are the ideas you want to avoid reinforcing / internalizing, even if that means turning down a sexual partner
In terms of sociology, economics, and politics, a demographic that takes up the smallest fraction of the population is not necessarily labelled the "minority" if it wields dominant power. In the academic context, the terms "minority" and "majority" are used in terms of hierarchical power structures.
By 'this' do you mean the meme, the response to the meme, or do you mean the number of SA cases done by men?
Are you drawing parallels to cities calling upon minority communities to police themselves and report suspicious behavior to try and 'solve gang violence'?
I think a lot of men believe “I’m one of the good ones” and don’t stop to think that a random woman on the street (or in the woods, in this case) has no way of determining that.
It's worth to know that nobody is ever infallible. I've always thought that same thing, "I'm a good guy.". But I've learned that it's better to think, "i may think I'm a good guy, but I need to be careful about how I come off," because I have said some fucked up things without realizing it.
Like, I have genuinely made some people uncomfortable without me realizing it, and I've been trying hard to be more aware of not only the situation I'm putting someone in, but the vibes I'm giving off.
I had a pretty pivotal experience around this realization when I was in my late teens. A buddy of mine and I were driving around town running errands, and we ended up driving past this same woman a couple of times like miles apart. At one point, I rolled down my window and asked if she needed a ride. The look on her face broke part of me. She was terrified of me. I'd never been looked at like that before.
I was so nieve at that point in my life. It never even occurred to me how horrifying 2 guys you don't know rolling up and trying to get you in their car might be. Neither of had any bad intentions...it was hot as hell out, and we figured she'd been walking for miles at that point. But none of that matters...we were like clumsy giants destroying a village we wanted to visit because we never considered the fact that we were just too big.
I still feel bad when I think about it and that was 20 years ago.
I went on a date with a woman many years ago and we had dinner. It's was clear we weren't vibing but we had a polite dinner and chatted and on the way out insisted I could drive her home instead of her taking an Uber like she did to get there. I offered a couple times and she agreed. I dropped her off and watched from the car to make sure she made it inside. I had good intentions and didn't intended to do anything more than drop her off. But man looking back, I wish I would have just waited with her for the Uber to show up. I bet that was uncomfortable for her.
I think you might be right in that idea. One time I was out with my wife at a club show. She got a little too drunk and stumbling. I was walking her out of the club to pick up the metro and go home, when some chick stopped us (her) and whispered something in my wife's ear.
My wife responded "No, it's good. He's my husband."
When I asked my wife what was that about and she told me that she was "checking to make sure I knew you." My first response was "oh yeah that makes sense. Men suck." I was low-key glad they checked on my wife though. They had no way of knowing if "I'm one of the good ones."
Did they apologize to you afterwards? If not then that's what's fucked up about this whole situation in society. You can't treat a person that you just suspected was a harasser like wind after you do it, and excuse it with "men are shitty, so I'm forgiven for my own shitty behaviour towards the good ones".
Well, no they didn't apologize. I didn't expect them because of the situation. I was literally walking quickly through a crowd of people. They only had a very small window to talk before I was already moving away with my wife in hand. By the time I noticed and stopped and asked my wife, the good samaritan was far enough away in a crowded bar that she wouldn't be able to say anything.
Maybe I don't take offense because she didn't treat me like a suspected harasser. She didn't treat me like anything. She looked out for my wife. I greatly appreciate that she was looking out for customers that drank too much. That was the end of my thoughts.
Why should I be offended that the club was trying to make sure their customers were safe? I guess I would be offended if they stopped me and separated us and asked 20 questions, but that isn't the case. The interaction took maybe 5 seconds and I didn't noticed until I was pulling on her arm and had some resistance. I looked back and by that time she was pulling herself toward me.
It’s not a maybe, that’s literally the entire point of the message. Unknown men are all too often kinda shitty because we have zero systems in place to teach men how to be good people and many systemic ways in which we’re told that we’re automatically better. We’re generally physically bigger, generally stronger, and, for the most part, taught to be entitled to a woman we happen to fancy.
But yes, you’ve read it correctly and we shouldn’t be getting upset but instead working on making ourselves more trustworthy. And it won’t happen in our lifetimes but it’ll be progress.
For those that haven't seen it, the bear meme is an article some lady wrote. A majority of women would rather be alone in the woods with a random bear, than a random man. Then she posted about getting hate mail for that.
Made me realize (hyperbole) how literal people are, how ready some are to dig their heels in and not interested in listening at all. If one ever had a conversation with a women (hyperbole), the unsafe feeling is something that comes up pretty often (I guess the women has to feel safe around you - so maybe there is that) and is sadly based on personal negative experiences they had.
I agree, This polarization is something I wish we had a strategy against. Or, at least, the knowledge to identify something as likely to result in heel-digging. The reason I believe we should discuss this meme here is not to figure out the statistics of wildlife, but to gain insights about how certain things affect us, and what type of response is desired and helpful.
At least for me the question is how to talk to people who don't want to listen. And the easiest answer is obviously not to, but that does not work in long term since it just enforces the existing echo chambers.
I read somewhere and like to mention it to other guys when it comes up in conversation about the difference between a man's and woman's greatest fear on a date.
The man is usually scared of being laughed at or rejected. The woman is usually scared of being killed.
Yeah I absolutely still don't understand what this supposed Bear meme thing is.. like I guess some girl chose to be in a room with a bear instead of in a room with a man? Was it just a meme? I have no idea what is going on or why everyone is so upset about it it seems like something to just divert attention away from something else
A bear is a known a danger and really doesn’t care about you unless you piss it off. In fact, loud noises might just scare it away even if a brown bear.
While most men are probably safe enough to have around, enough are unsafe or just generally give off that vibe that women don’t want to be alone with them and a loud noise won’t scare them away. You might “know” you’re safe but they have zero reason to trust you.
Sure she might get someone who wants to work together to be mutually safe and will make efforts to leave her be otherwise, but she might also get someone who stands just a bit too close, who starts trying to “help” just a bit physically, or even who starts to get frustrated when they don’t get some kind of reward for just being some minimum level of decent. And if they’re really unlucky they get someone who just sees the isolation of the situation as an opportunity.
The bear is a known quantity. The man could be anything and there are far too many examples of every part of the spectrum. At least the bear won’t sexually assault her even at the worst.
Well that's just ridiculous.. a bear is a wild animal who will fucking maul you to death and eat you and doesn't care about you at all ... a man is a human being, and human beings can be reasoned with.. I don't knoooooowwwwww........ this whole thing just, again, sounds like a way to get the masses riled up about something that really doesn't matter and doesn't really even make any kind of logical sense really in the grand scheme of things... it just seems like something to argue about for argument's sake.. it's a good debate topic but that's about it.. be it resolved that men are worse than bears?? LOL I don't know whole thing is kind of silly to me.. but thank you so much for your explanation of it
It's rage bait. It just a polarizing content meant to rile up the masses and make us argue and bicker. It takes some societal grievances and amplifies them needlessly.
There's plenty of polarizing content, especially online. I think it's a good idea to talk about how we react to it. There are reactions which amplify the polarization, but perhaps also reactions that bring people together in understanding each other? At least I hope so. I just don't know what is best, to ignore suspected bait, to argue a point, to listen, to call out bad faith actors. I don't know.
Wildly enough.... get ready for this one.. I'm a chick.
I took the time to say thank you so much for explaining it.
But you can't honestly genuinely tell me that you would rather be faced with a literal wild bear from actual nature, than another human being..... that's something for a therapist and not for the internet.... and if you're one of those chicks who genuinely feels that terrified of men, you need to speak to somebody because it's not natural.
And if you're one of those chicks that gets wildly crazily madly offended to the point where they think they'd rather be trapped in a room with a wild animal with teeth and Claws that see you as food then be around another human being with an opinion, you also need a therapist, because it's the internet. It's not life or death.. which it absolutely would be with a whole actual bear in the room.
A bear wouldn't possibly beat or torture me or rape me. A bear wouldn't try to kidnap me and lock me in its basement as its personal sex slave. A man might. A bear would simply try to eat me or run away, it's predictable. But go off about how it's totally safe to run into a strange man in the woods as a woman. 🙄
As a guy, I don't know shit about women, but bears are absolutely famous for being unpredictable. That's why they're considered dangerous. Not like moose, which are dangerous for being gigantic and incredibly dumb.
Bears also love in the woods, so it's pretty normal for bears to be there. There's a decent chance it's just minding its business. I wouldn't want to be around a bear, but I also wouldn't want to be around a man with bad intentions.
Humans are also absolutely famous for being unpredictable, fwiw
Like just rearrange your sentence... men also live on planet Earth so it's pretty normal for men to be there there's a decent chance it's just minding it's business I wouldn't want to be around a man but I also wouldn't want to be around a man with bad intentions do you see how shitty that sounds when you say you don't want to be around all men? Because of men with bad intentions? All bears will eat you not all men will rape you
This means nothing. We're talking about wild animals in their natural habitat. Most animals in their natural habitat want to be left alone. Humans are not natural prey or threats to bears, so they generally wouldn't want to fight or hunt a human.
don't want to be around all men? Because of men with bad intentions?
I think that's something that needs to be taken up with men (because it's impossible to pick out just the ones with bad intentions).
That's part of the problem.
The other part of the problem is the fact that being alone in the woods and spotting a bear minding its business sounds like a normal event. Being alone in the woods and spotting a strange man sounds like an abnormal event.
Bears don't really hunt humans. Some men do hunt women. And there's enough of them (and it could be any man) that a lot of women are afraid of strange men.
Another part of the problem is seeing a man in the woods and Assuming he's a murderer instead of thinking oh maybe he's geocaching or maybe he's hunting or maybe he's collecting mushrooms or maybe he's a photographer or maybe he just likes being in the woods or maybe he's going fishing or maybe he has a family that he's providing for or maybe he's an artist like there are so many other things to think of a man in the woods then oh my God this man is going to rape murder and stalk me to death I'm going to die. The 'othering' of men is an actual danger to society.
Men aren't raised by bears.. maybe we should take it up with the women who are raising the men.
I think you need to work on your perspective-taking skills.
It seems like what's happening is that women on social media are sharing that they feel inherently unsafe around strange men in remote and unexpected places, and your reaction is "That hurts my feelings as a man, and those women are wrong!"...
If you're not dangerous, that's great. Your feelings for assuming you're being generalized are valid.
If a woman reacts to you, unprompted, with fear, I think it's important to understand the reasons why she might react that way, rather than be angry about her fear. Frankly, getting angry at someone's fear would most likely reinforce that fear. And I think understanding would help reduce the anger you feel.
I see you're one of the 2/3 of women who haven't been sexually assaulted by a man. That's good, I'm glad for you. But, as a man and in view of those statistics, I have to say it's entirely justified for most women to prefer the bear.
That there is not true as well... I've been assaulted more than most.
I've been a sex worker.
But I've also been in the woods and seen what an actual bear looks like and did not fucking stick around. It's a bear.. I don't know what everybody doesn't get about that it's a bear.
Alright, so I'm on team "alone in the woods with a bear", but since you want to talk statistics, let's talk statistics and the heteronormativity embedded in your statistics.
The figure I'm familiar with is that 1/4 of women have been sexually assaulted. Maybe you have a figure that says 1/3, that's fine. But crucially, these figures do not say who did it. What you've made is an assumption that women only get sexually assaulted by men. Personally, I think that the vast, vast majority of sexual assaults on women are done by men. But not all. I don't believe you can transfer those two statistics - women sexually assaulted and women sexually assaulted by a man - 1:1.
Let me explain where I'm coming from. Half of transgender and nonbinary people have been sexually assaulted. That's double the number of women! This factor, double, is consistent across sources I've seen that investigate both figures with the same methodology. You might have a source that says 1/3 of women are sexually assaulted, that's fine, but the ones that investigate rates for both women and trans people say it's twice as many trans people.
I could go ahead and assume, if I wanted, that half of all trans people have been sexually assaulted by a cis person. That's the same assumption you made that 1/3 or 1/4 of women have been sexually assaulted by a man. But it's a bad assumption. I know lots of trans people who've been sexually assaulted, and most of the time it was by a fellow trans person. You see, trans people have our own community that's isolated from the cisgender dating scene as a matter of safety, and that means isolated, lonely people let their guard down around fellow transes and the victims can't get away from their abusers, nor are trans friends of trans abusers willing to give up a social network in which the abuser is embedded. It's messy and disgusting and it wouldn't be a problem if cis people just accepted us, but it's where we are. I would be wrong to assume all rapists of trans people are cis people.
And I read way too deep into your comment and got a vibe that you were making the assumption that all sexual abusers of women are men. You probably don't actually think that and didn't mean to make any kind of implication along those lines. So I'm just leaving this comment as a general reminder not to use heteronormativity to inform our statistical analyses.
There was a thing where a woman said that she would feel more safe in a forest with a random bear than with a random man. Then the people who would comment on this type of thing commented, then the kinds of people who comment on the comments did their thing.
The internet is large and there is no way that everyone sees all of the same things as each other, especially when most of the "conversation" about the topic happens on a different platform.
This is a really weird issue that I really don't understand how it's so persistent. Even younger women doctors seem reluctant to sterilize women without at least checking if a husband/so is ok with it.
It's disappointing that the effects of discrimination against childless men are downplayed in the article, which focuses on discrimination against mothers.
Even in the age of “Lean In,” when women with children run Fortune 500 companies and head the Federal Reserve, traditional notions about fathers as breadwinners and mothers as caregivers remain deeply ingrained.
This bias is most extreme for the parents who can least afford it, according to new data from Michelle Budig, a sociology professor at the University of Massachusetts, Amherst, who has studied the parenthood pay gap for 15 years.
“A lot of these effects really are very much due to a cultural bias against mothers,” said Shelley J. Correll, a sociology professor at Stanford University and director of the school’s Clayman Institute for Gender Research.
The data could be boiled down to hardheaded career advice: Men should festoon their desks with baby photos and add PTA membership to their résumés, and women should do the opposite.
In Ms. Budig’s previous work, she has found that two policies shrink the motherhood penalty: publicly funded, high-quality child care for babies and toddlers, and moderate-length paid parental leave.
For instance, in countries that promote more traditional gender roles, like Germany, where new mothers are expected to take more than a year off work, the motherhood penalty is very high.
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