I’m going to go ahead and pin this for a couple days. This is by far the most well thought out piece of OC we’ve had here and I want to showcase it a little.
Men are also different from women. Not just physically but mentally. Part of the problem the writer had was not understanding how male friendships work and expecting a mirror of female friendships. Certainly it can be lonelier as a man but in some ways it’s just the way we are.
I’m just saying that men in general have a much easier time being alone. I don’t think we should always be alone, but more men than women have the ability to be solitary and happy at the same time.
I think the important thing here is that there’s absolutely no reason it HAS to be this way. These aren’t intrinsic properties of male and female friendships. They are driven primarily by cultural factors and have changed significantly even over recent history.
I’m just saying the cultures arise from the people. There’s a reason things are the way they are and it’s not some evil corporation or government trying to oppress us. At least in the west. Can’t quite say that about China or other Communist regimes.
Things are the way they are because people are forced into the culture they were born into and are pressured at every angle to stay that way or face social backlash.
I got called gay cause I got too excited while talking to one of my friends. Because it’s a common culture trait in America that any overly positive emotion towards another guy means your a sissy boy
They called you gay not because they thought you were homosexual but as an offhanded insult. The two definitions have been disconnected for quite a while.
Trust me it wasn’t just an insult where I grew up it had a seriously negative impact on my ability to socialize or form any kind of romantic relationship
You're right to a point, it's just coming off as dismissive.
Yes, men and women are built differently through biology. Yes, hormones give an innate edge for certain factors. One of them may very well be the ability to last without a social structure for longer than women. We've slowly built up our society with smoky mirrors of those facts around us.
What they're saying is that nature vs nurture isn't 100% one way or the other which I think you'd agree with. It's more you're both pressing pedantic points lol.
It does when it comes to closeness and intimacy with friends. Look at a lot of European cultures where kissing your friends is extremely common and closeness is normalized.
It’s all the anti gay shit that gets spread in America that makes men uncomfortable to be close and open with their friends
I really appreciate you taking the time to say that.
A side note to the above; men struggle to keep friends, especially as the years go on, but our group keeps growing (all initiated to the power of hugs and love).
I think it’s the openness that’s made it so much easier to stick together rather than fade away. I hope more men can open up and deeply bond beyond surface interests and common spaces.
Of course! Changing the world starts with changing the world immediately around you. You're truly doing good, even more so by opening your group to newcomers!
Ignoring the biological effects of testosterone on the male body is dangerous. This makes males aggressive, violent, and hierarchical. These are intrinsic and not driven by cultural factors. Sports exist for a healthier outlet for this aggressive and biological need for competition.
Lol nice. Well I’m sorry, if you lived in the US in a state that we frequent, I would get you a few hugs. Maybe you should just make a sign that says free hugs and stand in the middle of a public area. I’ll bet you would get some real good ones…
Easily possible. Grow up somewhere with a lot of macho man mentality with a toxic masculine father figure that wants nothing more than for you to grow up to be their clone that only like MAN stuff. Took me over 30 years to be hugged the way I didn’t know i needed to be hugged because I fell into a friendship with a woman that knew a few broken men.
The problem is not about you. It’s about your ability to accept another man who wants a “female” friendship. And apparently you don’t want any of that, which makes you part of the problem.
I’m talking about a woman who wanted to physically be a man but is still mentally programmed as a woman could not understand male friendships. It’s not that men don’t have friends or deep friendships. It’s just that they’re usually different from the opposite gender.
Interesting perspective. It would be really mind-blowing to see the other side of the gender, even though I have no interest in being trans.
One thing I will add to this article is that men are also viewed as little more than bank machines after divorce. People always have the utmost sympathy for any mother who is separated from her children, even if only for a few days. Movie plots can revolve around mothers finding their lost children and being reunited. But for men? We’re only the providers, the ones who pay the child support.
I lost my kids (not legally, just boring old classic parental alienation) six years ago following the divorce. Nobody cares, because I’m just a man. Not even my own father cares. He happily continues to see his grandkids because he doesn’t want to “take sides.” None of my cousins or other parts of my family care either. So long as I’m paying my “support.” And I can’t complain about it on social media because I’m a man. I’m a stoic. Boys don’t cry, remember?
The lack of emotional support for men mentioned in the article is another thing that really exacerbates divorces and leads to suicides. I do feel like if I were the type of person to contemplate suicide (I’m not), I would have definitely done it when my ex took my kids from me. And there would have been no male friends to pull me back from the edge. Those friendships are, to quote the author, superficial to a large degree, or even the ones that aren’t are men who are now focused heavily on their own families and wives.
I mean, it’s also true all the other stuff about the male privilege and feeling safe and the good things that come with being a man. But it’s nice to see the perspective of how we lack emotional support and we’re expected to grit our teeth and “walk it off.”
I’m sorry about the parental alienation you and your children have suffered, that’s terrible for everyone.
Not even my own father cares. He happily continues to see his grandkids because he doesn’t want to “take sides.”
I’m confused why you wouldn’t want him to see them. Isn’t in your best interest to have people who love you and think you’re a good dad in your kids’ lives? Somebody to counter the alienating narrative in whatever ways they can?
Oh I’m fine with him seeing his grandkids but he has no empathy for my situation, considering it a dispute between myself and my ex. He even shares details from his trips to see them, as though that wouldn’t hurt me to hear about it. His lack of empathy is the problem.
My mother, on the other hand, criticized my ex for the situation and was “cut off.” So, despite the fact I’m sad that my mother can’t see her grandkids because she, unlike my dad, did take sides, I feel like she had the empathy to stick up for her son and point out it the situation isn’t right.
I will also mention my brother was “cut off” because of his close associations with me.
I am very low contract with my mother and sister because they kept my ex as a friend after all her bullshit through the divorce. I put on a show for my son to have sort of normal family times at holidays, etc. but I mostly do not connect with them outside of time with my son. We are NOT friends.
So, internet stranger. I understand the crazy bullshit that comes with divorce for a man.
And it is amazing how quickly and thoroughly men are discarded after a divorce. Disposable indeed.
In a perfect world I could have had an amicable divorce from my ex and everybody could have stayed in touch and been happy.
Instead I had a “Michael Bay” divorce where everything went really explosive and badly. It’s sad because I see a lot of example – such as our own prime minister – who have a great divorce where everybody is respectful and mature and life goes happily on.
I’ve tried to explain to my dad how screwed up it is that he maintains a relationship with my ex despite my zero contact with my kids but he doesn’t care. Actually, he went to my exes wedding with her new husband last month, which involved him flying to my city. He didn’t visit me, which is really the extra cherry on the shit sundae.
Yeah, divorce was similar for me. I was discussing and considering collaborative divorce with my lawyer until I was served the restraining order...which I got dismissed. That started about 2 years of legal theater propelled by stupid amounts of money.
You do find out just how selfish your family is when you go through a divorce, don't you? And how little they really care about you.
At a certain point I went "Bush" on family/friends: If you're not for me then you're against me. I still think it brought me back to some sort of sanity in dealing with people. And taking the trash people out of my life.
In “theory” or “legally” I have 50-50 custody. In practice, it’s nearly impossible to enforce visitation with older children. My kids were 15 and 9 when we split. Immediately, the courts said enforcement on the 15-year-old was impossible. I spent a few years battling enforcement on the 9-year-old but she soon also became unenforceable. At a certain point you can’t win if the kids also don’t want to see you or make your visit a nightmare by passively resisting.
I was in the middle of one of these court battles when my daughter became anorexic and told the medical staff she didn’t want me to visit her in hospital. She was about 13 and that was the last I saw her.
Legally, I am a 50-50 parent but in reality the only thing I’m entitled to do is pay their mother $1,000 a month.
Not OP, but yes, obviously. It’s still different than being in their kids’ lives and even if the grandfather is supportive, it’s no replacement for direct interaction. I also think there is the question of weather the grandparent will be supportive of OP or protective of the relationship with the grandkids when faced with a difficult decision with regard to who they need to win favor with.
I hope I’m not intruding on men’s spaces here as a transwoman,
But after my transition that was one of the biggest, most drastic contrasts between the two binary gender’s social dynamics. Men just don’t get to talk about their feelings- whether it stems from homophobia or misogyny, men are generally seen as an island to themselves and if you display otherwise, it is seen as a weakness worthy of admonition and disrespect. There is still a societal expectation that men are supposed to be stoic, stable providers while women are increasingly allowed liberation. Hard fought, and rightly so but what’s the point of “equality” if we don’t lift everyone up to the same standards?
I have never felt more emotional support in my entire life than when I stepped into women’s spaces, seen as a woman. This just isn’t fair or right, regardless of the other privelages men may have. Justice is for everyone, not just minorities.
Yet, it is up to men to decide this. Yes, women can and should support you, but remember who has the most power to change these standards. Women didn’t have to demand other women for suffrage, they had to demand it from men. It is the same here for emotional liberation.
*An edit for an addendum: I hope nobody reads this feeling that I’m blaming men, or being accusational. I want to clarify that I believe men do have the power to change this culture of emotional isolationism but it will require self-reflection, effort and a strong demand from oneself and other men to be willing to seek liberation- at the risk of what comes with shaking up the status quo.
I have never felt more emotional support in my entire life than when I stepped into women’s spaces, seen as a woman.
As a women that, granted, had some serious questions about gender in my younger years this has always blown my mind because it’s so multi-faceted.
Women are more emotionally supportive, but it can quickly spiral into an almost gross-feeling and superficial reinforcement. Everything seems to be “valid” or demands an emotion-ridden hullabaloo, whereas the men in my life have always been more direct and straightforward, unafraid to call out my general jack-assery or quip “yeah, that sucks” when there’s not much else to be said about my general state of affairs.
The flip side of this is that women tend to be more sympathetic/vocal to general life events and encouraging to mild up or down days, whereas men tend to cock an eyebrow and ask what you’re so excited/upset about when you show up to work “having feelings” on a random Tuesday because your spouse threw a fit about leftover spaghetti that morning.
The dichotomy is fascinating to me, to watch unfold every day with every interaction. I find myself (not correctly or incorrectly) leaning towards men in times of crisis (muted response), and towards women in times of -life in general- (exacerbated response) because it gives me the mean/median output of (normal human response).
However, this doesn’t mean men only have “regular” mode or “crisis” mode, or that women only live in an amplified wave of “normal” and “slightly less normal”, and I think that’s where we find our faults. Our definition of the masculine and the feminine revolve around a dead sun that no longer serves us well. Men ARE emotionally supportive, and women ARE reserved/stoic, it’s just not always what you expect at the time so it gets glossed over and deleted, to the detriment of everyone.
It’s not only a question of men. If you want a romantic relationship, you need to fit the society’s standards for the sex you are looking for. If women are looking for toxic virility, the sad truth is that men who embrace it will have an easier time finding a relationship.
This is not something you take from anyone. And this is the biggest problem many men have with the #metoo era: we acknowledge toxic masculinity is toxic and can even be deadly, but what is the alternative? There is none currently.
There is no model for modern men that is worthy of both modern men and women. This is why we have incels and other hardcore conservative going hard on hating women or even more toxic masculinity.
But I digress. The solution is not in a fight, it’s in acceptance from both men and women.
Thank you for sharing. I haven’t figured out the magic words to communicate this well. I worked at a company that proudly announced longer maternity care for newborns, an astounding (for the US) 6 months. Fathers got 2. I’m a dad and wasn’t going to have any more kids, but some of us spoke up and suggested that dads deserve time with their children as well. It was explained that mothers have special connections with children (nursing) and are genetically (yuck) more loving caretakers. Their brains are wired for empathy, so they deserve more time. Remember when we all agreed it was awful to say men are better at logic and reasoning? Me neither because it was so long ago. How is this okay? And we wonder why far more women drop out of the workforce to become full time parents.
There’s a theory that women quit to care for kids because they don’t have enough support, so let’s give them extra time off, extra health care benefits, recovery support, reinforcing stereotypes and gender roles. It’s the most ass backward approach to what should be the goal to encourage husbands to take larger roles in families. When a man speaks up, he’s part of the patriarchy, suppressing women’s voices. Women need to be heard and supported, not mansplained. If anyone can suggest how to change the conversation without being labeled a bully while simultaneously being bullied, I would love to learn.
First, this is a long comment, and I don’t want to come off as dissing it. I agree with you. Except for that concluding thought.
I used to think that that was true, women vs. men for voting rights. But about ten years ago, I wandered into the Berkeley Historical Society. They had a bunch of materials on display about the women’s suffrage movement, including just boxes of documents. One of the first ones that I pulled out was a poster for an anti-suffrage meeting. A meeting organized by women.
In fact, they had lots of documentation about anti-suffrage efforts by the society women of Berkeley. That completely shocked me, given Berkeley’s crunchy reputation. But I did more research later, and found that it was not at all unusual.
Up until the early years of the 20th century, most women were against it! Even when the 15th Amendment passed, a large minority of women still opposed it. As well, quite a lot of men supported it. (Obviously, they had, to since they were the ones voting to pass it.)
Anyway, the framing of the issue as women demanding the vote from men is oversimplified.
Rather than intruding, transitioned individuals ought to be seen as the strongest allies - on both sides of the fence. The lived experience you being to the table is tremendously valuable because it is so indisputably valid.
but remember who has the most power to change these standards. Women didn’t have to demand other women for suffrage, they had to demand it from men.
Not really. Power has traditionally been held by couples, with men putting on the act and women pulling the strings behind the scenes. Our forefathers even created an entire institution known as marriage to establish these alliances formally. In fact, for a long, time women were more likely to be a part of the anti-suffragism movement than of the suffragism movement.
Even voting rights at the time were attached to land, not people. Before industrialization, it was impractical to own land without an entire family available to tend to it. A single man would never be able to cut the wood, grow the crops, care for the animals, and do all the household chores. There isn’t enough time in the day. As such, land ownership too was for couples – thus voting was for couples.
Industrialization was the turning point. It brought increasing opportunities to live a life alone, and those alone started growing more and more disgruntled about a world made for couples.
I believe men do have the power to change this culture of emotional isolationism but it will require self-reflection, effort and a strong demand from oneself and other men to be willing to seek liberation- at the risk of what comes with shaking up the status quo.
I don’t. Such movements happen because of technical advancement. Industrialization, as mentioned, was a pivotal time not only for suffrage but a number of movements. The rise of automation, freeing even more hands from the kitchen, was also a significant period with respect to these topics. These things would have never happened without those new, at the time, technologies changing the way we live.
When the world changes, then people change. There is little evidence that people can change ahead of the world. After all, things happen for a reason. There was logic in giving power to couples at some point in history – until the world changed and it no longer made sense.
Similarly, men are guarded today for a reason. Until some technical advancement lifts that reason from hanging over their heads, it isn’t going anywhere. Going to war against an immovable object doesn’t yield well.
Nobody cares, because I’m just a man. Not even my own father cares. He happily continues to see his grandkids because he doesn’t want to “take sides.” None of my cousins or other parts of my family care either. So long as I’m paying my “support.” And I can’t complain about it on social media because I’m a man. I’m a stoic. Boys don’t cry, remember?
That is the worst. So sorry you’re having to deal with that and not get support from the men in your life.
A story all too common. Someone I know mine got divorced a number of years ago. He’s a fun, charming, kind, decent looking fellow in good shape for his age, and I can’t imagine he did anything to deserve what happened. I don’t know all the details of their divorce, but I know all but one of his children was poisoned against him by his (now ex) wife, and it’s only because the one happened to be away long term at the time.
His ex has several advanced degrees and is more than capable of earning six figures. And yet, he was still ordered to pay her spousal support and a sizable chunk of his pension. The divorce and family court system is absolutely fucked for men and it’s a small wonder so many of them contemplate drastic measures when their lives are ripped away from them.
Feminism gave women all of the same rights and privileges as men and then conveniently “forgot” to balance out all of the exclusive rights women get just for being women.
Feminism gave women all of the same rights and privileges as men
Feminism hasn’t done that yet, we’re nowhere near equal rights and opportunities for women and if you don’t believe me, look at the gender balance in US government roles and who has the money and power.
Let’s focus on dismantling patriarchy and the harm it creates for men as well.
They can both be problems simultaneously, and it’s disingenuous to argue that there aren’t militant feminists pushing to keep all of the advantages from earlier eras.
This is a men’s lib forum, and men’s liberation is pro feminist (feel free to check the wiki or that nice bell hooks quote trending on this forum if you disagree).
By being a strong ally to women, men benefit too, and I choose to keep doing that.
You can have the last word if you like, I’m gonna peace out here.
This is BS, currently feminism looks to only strive after the cozy office places and various places of power. I didnt seen feminism once to call for equal numbers of female rig workers, construction workers, Alaska fishing jobs and similar… Feminists are mysteriously somehow always just after the lucrative office jobs…
I’m a white, cis, heterosexual American male. I’m supposed to be privileged in every way, feel endlessly guilty over things I cannot control and try not to perpetuate, and never, ever dare suggest any kind of dissatisfaction with my situation.
I wouldn’t know how to express my feelings the way the author has. I’d feel like a misogynistic neckbeard, callous racist, or ungrateful whiner. If, somehow, I didn’t feel these things, someone would quickly, loudly, and condescendingly remind me that I should. They’d then be applauded for putting me in my place.
I can’t thank the author enough for writing this article.
I’m supposed to be privileged in every way, feel endlessly guilty over things I cannot control and try not to perpetuate, and never, ever dare suggest any kind of dissatisfaction with my situation.
Why are you supposed to e.g. “feel endlessly guilty over things you cannot control”?
It's generally just people not being able to accept being wrong about something. They take it as a personal insult and hit to their pride rather than just going oh? Verify? Oh shit, neat.
Instead it's I must be a piece of shit. Other people must not like me now. They must be talking about me...
Mother fucker nobody paying attention to you but MAYBE yourself and MAYBE your closest loved ones lol.
If you walk around in life with a chip on your back, everything becomes an insult though. It's the literal republican modus operandi primed mostly through religion via guilt.
Fortunately, it’s not anger in my case. It’s “just” poor self esteem and a tendency to feel guilt for things that I know (rationally, at least) aren’t my fault.
Yeah it's definitely a hard habit to break. Largely depending on how you were raised with a bit of natural tendencies here and there.
It absolutely is a mindset though. One which you can get out of given enough challenge, time, patience, and professional help if you're not good with executive function.
"Check your privilege" has only ever meant that people want others to understand how situations and histories might be different. White guilt is a thing white people made up to make it about them.
People who share some of my characteristics have historically done, and are currently doing, absolutely horrible things. Empathy with the victims isn’t enough for some. I’m part of the problem simply by being born, until I prove otherwise.
I can’t blame people who feel some suspicion and resentment, either. It’s justified.
But that doesn't mean you have to feel guilty. That's, usually at least, not what people are asking for either. Guilt isn't helpful.
Being aware of the social systems we live under, the power structures those systems create, and the blind spots we might have. That's what's being asked for.
No, it isn’t helpful. Part of that guilt comes from not being able to do enough. Yeah, I try to learn as much as possible, but that only goes so far. I’m not rich. I’m not powerful. There’s so much injustice that I want to change, but can’t.
I know logically that guilt is useless, but the feeling persists.
I’m part of the problem simply by being born, until I prove otherwise.
Again: who is saying that? I’m sure there are some people who do, but in my experience that’s a really tiny minority. And the majority of texts I read about e.g. (male) privilege explicitly state that being privileged does not mean you’re guilty or a bad person.
I can’t blame people who feel some suspicion and resentment, either. It’s justified.
I mean yeah, I can understand why a women might prefer to walk on the other side of the street from me at night. It hurts of course, but I understand it. That doesn’t mean I need to feel guilty about it though.
I’m not American but the minister for Family/Sexual Violence in my country publicly said that “it is white, cis men” who “cause[s] violence in the world”. Was pretty gutted to find out that my ex (cis woman) treating me like shit is entirely my own fault according to the MP who is supposed to represent all victims of family, sexual, and relationship violence.
Honest question, what’re your thoughts on the racial reparations discussion? I was surprised to hear that it exists tbh, mostly cause of how impossible it seems as a target. But my understanding is that there are people getting some real attention saying that white people should give enough money that they can’t pay their bills to make up for their privilege.
I haven’t heard of it. In Germany there is some discussion about reparations for societies colonized by Germany, the genocides against the Herero and Namaqa and every once about further reparations for the Nazi crimes - all of which make a lot of sense to me, especially the former two as they haven’t received any significant reparations that I know of.
feel endlessly guilty over things I cannot control and try not to perpetuate, and never, ever dare suggest any kind of dissatisfaction with my situation.
Because of things our ancestors did long ago that has nothing to do with us right now as people.
I didn’t feel these things, someone would quickly, loudly, and condescendingly remind me that I should. They’d then be applauded for putting me in my place.
Those people are racist, sexists. If they didn’t have you to target, they’d find another group. Don’t give them the time of day.
TIL my friendships with my bros are about 5x healthier than average.
I read this thought it sounded super melodramatic and exaggerated. I guess it’s just more rare to have deep friendships with the boys. Looking back it got me thinking that I might be the weird one with friends that have deep conversations and know/worry about the others mental health.
So i guess, to any guys that read this and felt like it could have been written about them: go out on a limb and talk to your friends. Chances are they want/need a more meaningful friendship too. They are also probably similarly apprehensive about opening up.
I try to do that, but somehow it’s magnitudes harder to talk to men and I can’t figure out why. I’m probably already more open about how I feel than most men (at least in part because of the communities I chose to be part of, therapies, age, …), but opening up to women (or non-binary persons) feels way more natural and easy for me and I don’t even know if that’s because other men’s reaction to these topics are somehow subtly different (even with men who are also rather open) or because of some inhibitions on my behalf (e.g. not feeling safe around them because of bad experiences or because of an absent father figure or…).
I have no issue opening up to other men, so long as they’re receptive, but very often (almost universally) I’ve ended up regretting it when I have done so.
Sure, it’s not anything too tragic or traumatic. Openness has often been met with derision or mockery. Even if the other person is supportive during the initial openness, whatever is confessed is often brought up later for more negativity. In some cases, if my feelings were about a separate individual and I was seeking advice about them, the person to whom I was talking has taken what was said to the other individual in question.
Wow, that’s awful. While not tragic, that does sound like little-t traumatic. What a way to discourage opening up. I’m sorry you had to go through with that. I hope you eventually find some better friends that can more respectfully hold your emotions.
I’m with you. Guys are much easier to talk to about a lot of things.
Though girls are easier in some ways.
Talk to a girl about an insecurity and she will beat you with it. Worried about being small oh just join a gym even if you go all the time. Worried about being short, oh I wouldn’t ever dream of dating someone shorter than me but there are girls out there who are shorter than you so try with them. Worried about low pay, oh you will get paid more in the future and then you will have worth. Anything like that girls are awful.
Missing something like a dead relative or ex. Girls tend to be better with that.
If you feel sad or talk to girls if you feel vulnerable or want help solving a problem talk to boys.
It is melodramatic. He’s writing as an outsider who doesn’t know yet how to interact as a man, and may or may not have full male hormonal balance yet. Men form deep relationships with their male friends, but only on a long enough timeline for trust to be built, and then we display it differently. His perspective is that of a woman’s, so he’s probably missing a lot of nuance in reactions he’s getting. Something as simple as a knowing nod can mean a lot between men. Just because we’re not all lovie dovey, and hugging and kissing, doesn’t mean we’re broken, it means we’re men, with male mannerisms, male emotions, and male forms of bonding.
Am I only the only one who thinks comes off like “men arent like women, and therefore broken”?
Not having to spend an hour discussing my feelings is actually one of the things I like about my friendships. I don’t want long deep hugs, they make me uncomfortable. And I definitely don’t want someone opening up to me about their life struggles. That’s not the kind of friendship I like or want.
I wouldn’t call you broken, just as I wouldn’t call an asexual broken. I do think there are men out there who wish they could be more vulnerable though, and if the current culture stops or hinders that I think they deserve to say something too.
I tried therapy to figure out how to express emotions and the male therapist said I was fine and keep going the way I am. I can’t cry and can’t really name my emotions or have awareness of what they even are. It’s so ingrained that this is the way we are supposed to be that even the professionals aren’t always aware.
Find a new therapist. Part of what makes dealing with mental health issues so hard is that you sometimes really need to shop around for a therapist, which can be especially hard when you’re dealing with what you need help with 🫤
I mean it does because those things only make you uncomfortable because you’ve been conditioned your entire life to feel that way just because you’re a man.
Eh, I think it is more the fact that men aren’t willing to open up about shit when it is bothering them and they want to share. I don’t want to have a 30 minute share session at the start of all conversations, but it should be normalized that when a close friend asks how you are that you can say “Honestly not good because of X, Y, and Z and this is how I feel” without being made to feel like a freak.
As a human I have to say if you don’t recognise the negative issues you suffer because of our long history of social problems and messy biology then you’re absolutely delusional - men and women.
Sure: Read the article and reassess what you think it’s about. I for sure didnt walk away with the same impression you did, but I could see why I would if I read the headline and headed straight to the comments section.
At least read the article before you criticize it, because it’s nothing like what you seem to think it is.
I did read it and it’s riddled with shit I would never, ever want, and yet he presents it like it’s a bad thing. Here’s a choice example:
When traveling or running errands, and I saw a parent dealing with an exhausting kid, I could help and not be stared at like a creep.
I can’t imagine ever wanting to help with a strangers child. Not because I might be treated like a creep, but because it’s just none of my business. I would even go so far as to say that assuming they need help is problematic in itself. But he doesn’t address that; no, apparently men don’t help because we’ve been broken by society.
All my best friendships have been 99% ripping into each other and telling funny stories. Like I don’t tell shitty stories about work because I lived it once and I don’t want to live it again. No one else does either. Unless it’s to vent about someone because I’m angry. But I do tell funny stories about work.
Having said that even in the most masculine environments when anyone has had an issue or been pushed too fair the guys always rally and pick them back up.
Day to day shit is your own problem. The once in a month or few months is our problem and I’m here for you.
You boss was mean to you. You want to bounce other careers around or see if I can find someone to hire you? No, well grow up everyone’s boss is shit. Either leave or deal with it.
Your misses just cheated on you. Right come on I’ll get the guys and we’ll go to the pub, she’s a cunt you’re better off without her.
Also hand shakes are fucking great. I usually go for a shake and a quick hug. But the handshake is better.
@Rodeo interestingly, I'm learning a lot from this interaction. Like about how men normalize day to day misery and disconnection. So I'm very glad that this thread exists; thank you for being honest.
I find it toxic when people go on and on about minor problems that are in no way relevant to the people in the conversation and there is no way they can help.
All it is doing is bringing unneeded negativity into an environment. That’s toxic.
You want help? Yine I can help how? You want to ruin my free time when I’m trying to de-stress by going on about people and things that have nothing to do with me and I can’t help? Go away.
I get what you’re saying (I hope ;-) ) and agree that women are allowed to do things that men aren’t.
[TW: Suicide, violence] I also think there are important differences between male privileges and female “privileges”. Male “disadvantages”* are generally still in the control of males. Military service is (or at least was) something that men (as a class) did to themselves, because they were the rulers. Prohibiting women from working or having a bank account was not something women had control over. Men commit suicide more often than women, but a suicide is still something that is ultimately in your hands - being murdered by your (ex-)partner or some stranger in a park isn’t. Of course it isn’t really that clear cut: how much control do you have when you are suffering from depression? And how much are you to blame for not seeking help when you’ve been trained you’re whole life to be “independent” and not show (or even feel) emotions?
But while it’s definitely not clear cut, I still think there are enough systematic differences to make distinction useful. Especially as the male privileges are much more in tune with what our society values: people get praised for getting shit done (be it fixing cars or shooting them into space), nation wide stories about being a good listener or friend are much rarer. You can amass insane amounts of money, and people will actually admire you instead of calling you greedy, while at least in Germany people start to have prejudices if you have more than two or three kids.
(*english is not my native language so I’m not as nuanced as I’d like to be)
Maybe, we as men, not so much society start pushing that, instead of waiting for others to do it for us.
We need to counter Lad Culture with telling them that talking about their feelings isn’t a pussy action. That we don’t have to wait for a wife to use as a therapist and surrogate mother.
When you see men pushing the toxic policies of “suck it up” on other guys with no cares to the background information, we need to call out the toxicity.
Things won’t get better so long as we enable the worst
Friends and family are the best, or at least the first therapist you should see. An actual therapist is required when the other two failed. That’s how a sane family or group of friends should work at least.
Another thing that we as men don’t want to admit (generalized statement,) are that traumas we suffer can often come from a familial source, and that distrust can poison our attempts to reach out to others.
Worse, those traumas can give improper perceptions about how a family works, and give frustrations due to finding out that your previously assumed normal life was in reality quite damaging for viewpoints when confronting how all the easy lessons we were taught were dead, decayed, and buried by 1970, if not earlier, and we’re working on tertiary information from unreliable sources that are grasping to the past to maintain control in their own lives.
This really resonates, mainly because it’s so true. I think a lot of men these days are feeling lost, sad, lonely, and angry. Some of us think it’s because we have forgotten what it means to be a “real” man, and the answer is more bravado, more machismo. But maybe what we actually need is to start learning to communicate with each other on a meaningful level, to redefine manhood in a way that allows us to express emotions in a socially acceptable way, and start forming real, close friendships with other men.
It’s an important topic that is often brushed off due to the individuals that tend to bring them up. The problem is though, that the problems these individuals have are in part caused by the lack of emotional support men receive socially.
I’m not defending any of the macho know-it-all “gurus” that I’m talking about, but I’m just pointing out that it’s important for women as well as men to care about this issue and try to change it in their daily lives, because aside from being toxic to men, it also creates more problems and worsens the existing ones.
How do you try to change it? Just open up more serious conversations with men, talk about feelings, even if they look at you weird at the beginning.
It’s a difficult question and I’m glad the author came clear with the fact they were wrestling with the notion, “does exemplifying good qualities of men inherently take it away from women and others?”
Now in the case where “What about men?” is brought into discussion about women’s rights and struggles, often the intent is to detract the conversation away, which is demeaning. In other contexts, I think it deserves more discussion.
I still get sad at the surprise women have when I move before they do
Is this actually a thing? I’ve always moved away from everyone’s path and never noticed anyone feeling surprised by that. And from every man I’ve ever walked with, I can only remember one who I noticed didn’t make room for other people.
Oh, it’s totally a thing. I’m a woman and short, so I’m below the eye line of most men, and I’ve had men plow right over me on crowded sidewalks or at events. Most men expect the woman to yield in that situation and they’ll get annoyed if you don’t. It actually is surprising when a man moves out of the way, though I don’t know if it shows on my face.
Weird. Imo everyone should yield - that way both parties only have to do a little sidestep and they both feel seen. But I guess caring about others seems to be a dying thing anyways…
Possibly, but could also just be a regional/being an ass thing.
I’m in the Southern US and if you don’t sidestep or flat out get out of the way of someone (not just a woman) with a “pardon me” you’re seen as a jackass.
However, I’ve traveled the world and as a 6 foot tall, 200lb man I got a wide berth when walking down the sidewalks in a lot of countries, have to get out of the way in others, seen people cross the street when they saw me, but then have some 5’ nothing dude with a chip on his shoulder try to start a fight with me for existing in Boston (note this is just a very Boston thing)
I’m in the Southern US and if you don’t sidestep or flat out get out of the way of someone (not just a woman) with a “pardon me” you’re seen as a jackass.
It happens for me way more with men. If a woman bumps into me, she apologizes at least 90% of the time, but I’ve rarely gotten an apology from a man. If I do, then he usually has kids with him.
Your two reasons, being below the eye line and being a woman are incongruent. If you’re below the eye line and they don’t notice you, then how are they expecting you to yield?
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