Maybe it’s because I live in a rural area, but no guy I know seems interested/comfortable with any kind of emotionally deep relationship with another guy. Definitely not throwing shade there, I feel the same way and completely unprepared on how to speak with anyone other than my wife emotionally.
The more seemingly well adjusted guys are all family guys with kids, so they basically have no time to do anything that doesn’t involve the kids.
The ones without kids and the guys that never married or divorced all got into solitary hobbies like hunting or fishing. I like to trail run, so it’s basically the same with me. I feel like it’s basically impossible to make friends with another guy and I do try to!
Something I talk to a therapist about but otherwise have little idea what to do with is the fact that I literally have no actual guy friends, just coworkers and a few old college buddies that live hours away, so we only get together about one a year. I feel like the article was pretty good and it is very interesting that a trans man was able to capture the feeling so well.
It’s definitely cultural as well. I’m European and never struggled to make guy friends. I moved to New Zealand which is very British, and I really struggle here. My guy friends are other immigrants from Europe or South America. However, 80 percent of my friends are female. I love them but at times I definitely do miss having more dudes to hang out with.
Kiwi blokes are super quiet and steer away from serious conversation. It’s really hard here.
Whilst traditional gender normes are hurting everyone (“be a man”, “smile more”) I really don’t feel that “patriarchy” and it’s evident undertone of finger pointing are the main cause.
I’d go even further and say that what people call “patriarchy” is really more of an emergent phenomenon coming from those underlying gender normes.
bell hooks explicitly address the violence women inflict on their sons:
patriarchal mothers who have rage at grown men act out with sons. They may either force the son to enter into an inappropriate relationship in which he must provide for her the emotional connection grown men deny her or engage in emotional abuse in which the son is constantly belittled and shamed. These acts of patriarchal violence serve to reinforce in the mind of boy children that their violence toward females is appropriate. It simply feels like justifiable vengeance. Feminist idealization of mother-hood made it extremely difficult to call attention to maternal sadism, to the violence women enact with children, especially with boys. And yet we know that whether it is a consequence of power dynamics in dominator culture or simply a reflection of rage, women are shockingly violent toward children. This fact should lead everyone to question any theory of gender differences that suggests that women are less violent than men.
Hoenstly, The Will to Change addresses every popular argument about masculinity I’ve seen, and defines and explains the role of patriarchy. Fantastic book. 100/100. Read it. I should’ve read it years ago.
I don’t believe the behaviour itself stems from patriarchy, I think it is just human behaviour. That’s the bit that feels kind of convoluted. But I understand that to the true believers, that’s a matter of faith, so I’m not here to change anybodies mind.
I am glad this perspective is being presented. I think ftm people have a unique view of how difficult it can be to be a man that throws light on a lot of men's issues.
I hope this person can present more along these lines. I think I could come up with hundreds of questions.
I’m a trans guy who transitioned in the 2000s. I’d be happy to answer any questions you have on the unique perspective of men’s issues from someone who spent 20 ish years as a woman.
I’m crossing my fingers that you’ll get a reply, and not as a PM. I’m bursting with curiosity but such things are so very difficult to even have opportunity to be enlightened.
For me, testosterone primarily feels like the ability to focus and critically think - like my head was foggy before and is now clear. Everything seems to be logical, and my ability to troubleshoot complex issues is dramatically stronger when my T levels are good. Without T, everything feels extremely emotional and even minor things feel like they’re high-stakes. That’s not to say that I don’t feel emotion with T, rather the emotions are more appropriate for the situation. I do find that I care less about people in general when on T - For example, when I see a stranger with a problem I don’t feel like I have an obligation to help them whereas before I had an intristic need to help everyone around me.
I had many biological changes, such as a change in body fat and muscle, significant facial/body hair, hair thinning - which is a miserable conversion in and of itself, period loss, and changes in my genitals that I would prefer not to discuss. All of these were euphoric to me, meaning they made me feel good and more like myself.
I think that the best way for a man to understand a woman and vice-versa is to roleplay online as the opposite gender. For example, you may have noticed that people are more willing to help and harass you as a female character. Male characters mostly get ignored.
I thought on this one for a while and couldn’t come up with a strong response that doesn’t just parrot the talking points of this community.
I felt indifferent and uninterested in strip clubs before transitioning. I still feel the same way. They just seem like a bad time to me.
Before transitioning I didn’t understand gender dynamics at all. I thought it was a level playing field and had no grasp on the many courtesies and dangers that women face that men do not, and vice-versa. It’s often frustrating to see people rag on men’s or women’s behavior/privilege/issues, because people rarely hit the mark on reality.
I did also want to mention that one thing blew my mind - The way that the dynamics of a room change when it’s all men, versus when there’s a single woman in the room. With all men, it seems like guys relax and suddenly don’t feel the need to walk on eggshells. Social courtesies become significantly less important and men tend to communicate more directly. Next time you’re in a room of all men and a woman walks in, keep an eye out for the subtle differences in how men behave.
To be clear, clarity of mind is my own personal experience and it’s unclear if T affected me that way because that’s what it’s like for everyone or if it can be attributed to dysphoria. In other words, it’s possible that I didn’t feel right in my body so I couldn’t focus on the things around me.
Bear in mind that Estrogen levels drop during menopause so you’ll find out one day. :)
On your last point. Guys only get to be guys when around other guys, exclusively.
Lots of women act like men aren’t right or they aren’t good enough when they actual normal and do normal guy shit.
Guys wants to call each other a cunt and rip into each other and tell funny stories, it’s how they bond and trust each other. Girls don’t like that and think guys should stop it. Either the guys act normal to them and it goes to HR or they act normal to each other and the girl is pissed off she is treated differently and goes to HR. The only thing to do is to act completely professionally.
Boys are just built different and I don’t think it’s fair that women always tell us and actual children how they should and shouldn’t act in a way that is against their nature.
Guys are in dire need of male only spaces where they can shoot the shit. I only really had it in sports clubs or as a child, or luckily in some work environments. But work isn’t the same as outside so that’s sucks. Wish my knee wasn’t fucked.
If you yearn for a male only space, check out the Freemasons. There’s something there for everyone, and it’s a great way to make friends later in life.
I did not find that people take me more seriously at work as a man. However, I work in tech and all companies I have worked are focused on ensuring that women have an equal place at the table. I imagine that other fields yield different results. – I did want to note that I had the opposite experience with healthcare. As a woman, doctors were less likely to take me seriously. As a man, they take anything I say to be the truth and trust me to make decisions.
Disadvantages of being male are:
People are more reluctant to help you with anything and everything, as if he’s a man, so he’s got it.
Harder to date and socialize. It’s downright isolating at times.
Strangers are less likely to trust you.
There are fewer social programs to help men in need. I was homeless for a spell and there were no shelters for men, for example.
It’s much harder to get a job in tech as a man, because companies try to meet a gender quota despite most applicants being men.
Strangers are more likely to be violent towards men.
Must be careful around women so they don’t think I am a danger. For example, if walking at night and a woman is coming from the opposite direction I feel obligated to cross the street so they don’t think I’m going to attack or harass them.
FWIW, I hire in Tech, and our percentage of female applicants is incredibly low, usually under 1%. I do pay extra attention to their resumes, but often they aren’t even close to qualified for the position.
It’s much harder to get a job in tech as a man, because companies try to meet a gender quota despite most applicants being men.
I’ve worked at woke companies who fought tooth and nail to say that they didn’t give women special preference in interviews. You can’t deny statistics, though. If you have 40% women engineers but only 10% of applicants are women then of course it’s easier.
Way too easy to say it like that. It really is a double edged sword situation. Over all, woman get way more harassed. This comes from a guy that says being a woman is better for like 15 years, than got a SO that grts harassed a lot.
Like even friends (not friends anymore) will grope or only do nice things cause they just wanna F her.
Not what I meant, I mean small things like before when I was socially awkward, people thought I was some kind of creeper… Now people just think I’m cute.
well, women also get more attention therefor they are less lonely. Just look at dating apps: women get flooded with likes and messages, but men… good luck getting a like and if you get one, good luck getting a conversation where you are not the only one putting some effort.
Homie, this is quite a bad take particularly in the face of the article in question. One of the biggest things the author was talking about wasn’t quantity of relationships, but quality of relationships. Having first conversations with 50 odd men is not going to produce a quality relationship in which you can talk about significant worries in life, or work through feelings that are causing distress.
but they dont get messages from only 50 year old men, do they? they get messages from a full spectrum of men. The only thing left to do is to choose. When you get to choose and if you know what to look for, you end up finding quality. When you dont get to choose, you either settle down or end up alone. Its offer and demand.
This article isn’t talking about romantic relationships. It’s talking about intimate platonic friendships and how as a man the author found those platonic relationships to be shallower than before he transitioned. This has nothing to do with online dating.
If you have a close female friend, just ask her to show you some highlight of dating app messages. Seriously a good way to start doubting the intelligence of human specie as a whole.
Upvpted because I think that this and the accompanying replies are an interesting look into an outside cishet male viewpoint. Not that I agree but it provides opportunity to analyze an argument that may be common.
Oof they are awful, and indicative of the issues raised in the article. So many of the men commenting are defending the “man” stereotype as “natural”, and ignoring that men have issues existing in society probably because of the pressures of that stereotype. Nobody wants men to feel isolated and lonely and kill themselves 4x as much. I don’t think that’s a “natural” part of being a man. At least it doesn’t have to be.
This is why it’s hard for me to take these types seriously.
They complain about not getting compliments, but refuse to compliment each other for fear of sounding “gay”. It’s like they only count compliments if it’s from a sexually interested woman they happen to find attractive.
But women, especially the attractive ones, know better than to compliment men randomly for fear of “leading them on”.
This story reminds me of an ex girlfriend that wanted me to open up. So I did. She left me after that. The end result was good though, as it made me realize I needed some professional mental assistance.
That’s my experience, too. Most of the times I’ve opened up to a girlfriend, it’s turned them off. They thought they wanted me to, but they regretted it, which made me regret it. Either that or they later used it to manipulate me. So I just stopped.
Men started treating me like their guy friends, which was exactly what I wanted. What I didn’t know is that male friendships aren’t as deep.
That is also my experience - never could emotionally open or connect to my male friends. While (from time where I learned it) not having the same problem with women in relationships or friendship. I feel always a bit on guard with other men, always a bit performing. But at the same time I never made an negative experience with opening up being emotionally vulnerable.
The theoretical steps are rather clear, it’s just a different “vibe” I have with men and women (therefore I guess most of my friends are women) - sure in the end I just need start doing it, but as with all emotional things it’s easier said then done.
never could emotionally open or connect to my male friends
My bros and I are very emotionally open with each other. We’ve had sit-downs where we listen to each other and help each other through problems, hug each other when we cry.
Sure, I’m not going to do that with someone I just met 5 minutes ago, but once we know each other a bit we are very supportive and open.
Men started treating me like their guy friends, which was exactly what I wanted. What I didn’t know is that male friendships aren’t as deep.
He’s a fool if he thinks he’s going to form deep connections with other men in a short time period, especially as an outsider. Men make 4 friends in junior highschool and decide that’s enough for the rest of our lives. Men are also very tribal. He’s going to have to wait for years, or even decades to find the deep and meaningful relationships he’s looking for. That’s just how men operate.
It’s very interesting to have the view of a women that has transitioned to a men on the feeling side of things. I wonder how the transition is actually affecting his current relationship.
My experience as a man does look like what he talks about however, it’s not as crazy as he is saying. His depiction of manhood feels almost satire to me. Almost all of my interaction with men, I feel safe enough to talk about my problems, my feelings and my opinions on things, both personal or not.
Although, I am me and I do not represent all other men, It’s not untrue that men are lead to believe that they must be the one to shut up and provide for their community/family. Shut up and die for your family, you country. Shut up and do what you have to do. If you really do that, I think you just end up lonely, sad and probably really suicidal.
it’s not as crazy as he is saying. His depiction of manhood feels almost satire to me. Almost all of my interaction with men, I feel safe enough to talk about my problems, my feelings and my opinions on things, both personal or not.
It’s spot on for me. 9/10 times I open up to other men, it’s either diminished, insulted, or ignored. I count 4 friends who’ve actually listened to me. 1 ghosted me some time later. 1 listened rarely, only after I listened to him for hours. The other 2 are true chads and I wish life hadn’t separated us.
When I open up to women, it’s either insulted or saved and later used against me as manipulation.
I just don’t anymore. Only people I talk to are therapists.
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