Why were the TOS movies better than the TNG movies?

(Not including the reboot trilogy as that’s a different altogether topic)

I was recently in a mood to binge the first ten Star Trek films as I hadn’t seen any of them in several years, and I notice that the TOS films are better than the TNG films. Which is weird because when it comes to the tv series, I far prefer TNG and its spin-offs over TOS but when it came to the films, it’s the opposite. I love First Contact, and like Generations but Insurrection and Nemesis are pretty bad IMO, whereas the only TOS film I truly dislike is V. (My favorites are IV and VI) Was wondering what others here thought, I think this may be the standard opinion in fact.

As for why they’re better, I think for whatever reason the TOS movies feel more cinematic, whereas the TNG films were mostly trying to capture the TNG feeling and not as much be cinematic?

scarabic ,

I continue to be the only person who likes Insurrection. It was like a long episode.

Nemesis failed because it tried to go big and epic and cinematic with the Picard identity crisis. But insurrection was just a story about a planet with a cool anti-aging field that has some internal problems they ultimately needed help resolving.

felixxx999 ,

It’s because they didn’t give TNG time off…

gogreenranger ,

Echoing what others said: the TNG movies felt like long, bigger episodes. While this isn’t a bad thing, it didnt have the finality and “oomph” of the TOS movies.

THEY felt like they had big stakes, which carried from movie to movie, and at least for 2-4 (and 6), they picked up the character abd story arcs.

The TNG movies treated each as a standalone story, which again, isn’t a bad thing, but the episodic reset button was no good when you had the epic story of the TOS films.

Of all of the TNG movies, First Contact had it, but honestly Nemesis was the one that tried to bring it and completely squandered that feeling of “this can change the entire galaxy and tie to threads from the series.” I always felt like there was actually a better movie in there, left on the cutting room floor.

startrekexplained OP ,

Nemesis I felt could have been a much better film with better writing and direction. There’s certainly good stuff hiding in it, the whole nature vs nurture argument for example.

HobbitFoot ,

But it didn’t feel really earned. I feel like a Reman enemy or a Romulan captain that Picard faced in TNG would have been better. Hell, bring back Denise Crosby as Sela; her plotting to take over the Romulan Star Empire would have made sense.

startrekexplained OP ,

Agreed

Kahlenar ,

Insurrection is like Final Fantasy 8. It had two issues: it was a more nuanced personal adult story and it came directly after First Contact or FF7. In my childhood I was less impressed by insurrection, but as I grew up it became much more something that I appreciate it. Not sure what it is maybe achieving some kind of emotional maturity or epiphany and looking forward and looking backward, because that’s what insurrection seems to be about.

While I don’t agree with your general assessment I don’t think that there is any reason to really argue or go over the top on the particulars. I do think that first Contact is probably the best Star Trek we have and they always be so. There’s definitely a strong separation between the two subsets.

I’m currently watching '90s Trek with my SO, and weaving the movies in has been an absolute delight. Watching first Contact after starting season 3 of deep space nine, watching the undiscovered country part of the way into watching Voyager, watching insurrection towards the beginning of the Dominion war, it really just feels so natural.

startrekexplained OP ,

Funny you bring up Final Fantasy, because I’m in the process of playing all the classic entries (I have the pixel remasters and 7-9 on the Switch), and I didn’t know 8 was considered that weak. I guess I’ll find out once i get to it.

samus12345 , (edited )
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

It was the worst 3D one until XIII came along. Great soundtrack, though!

Which Final Fantasy are you on right now?

startrekexplained OP ,

1 actually, about to beat it and move on to 2. So its just beginning

samus12345 ,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

You’ve got a ways to go! I personally didn’t like them until IV.

startrekexplained OP ,

Whats your fav?

Kahlenar ,

6, rha rha rha rha rha

startrekexplained OP ,

I have both the snes classic and pixel remaster version, wondering which one to play

HobbitFoot ,

But part of the problem with Insurrection was that it wasn’t ambitious enough compared to the “bad” TOS movies.

TMP is spacious and filled with great visuals; it isn’t a plot that would work as an episode.

The Search for Spock is the middle of a great trilogy and sets up a personal grudge for Kirk that pays off in Undiscovered Country. The movie pushed characters along; the closest in Insurrection is the eventual marriage of Riker and Troi but it doesn’t play out in the movies.

The Final Frontier has Kirk yell “What does God need with a starship”.

Insurrection feels lacking in ambition.

startrekexplained OP ,

Insurrection feels lacking in ambition.

I just realized it was written by Michael Piller, the guy who saved TNG and created DS9. So kinda weird the one Trek movie he wrote was so bland and forgettable. And it was directed by Jonathon Frakes, who is a great director IMO so even more bizarre.

transwarp ,

He wrote a book about making it. The section on studio interference implies that it was all egregious, but it lists Paramount trying to fix most of the problems that were still in the final film.

Kahlenar ,

I don’t know I think the motion picture is exactly what an episode of Voyager feels like. A strange anomaly shows up they can’t do anything about it and all over it and figure it out the end.

I think that saying insurrection is not ambitious enough sort of is exactly my point about appreciating it more now that I’ve gotten older. It wasn’t a phasers first story it wasn’t a horror story it was a story of personal reflection and juxtaposition of one’s own values. And you cannot discount the ‘how many people’ exchange. Peak Picard just like line drawn here. And I think the biggest thing for me is that until the Trek resurgence I always assumed that Picard would retire and go live with the Baku.

HobbitFoot ,

Plot wise, maybe. However, TMP looks and feels like a movie.

In contrast, there really isn’t that much jumping out of Insurrection that feels cinematic.

LibraryLass ,

You know, as a big FF8 booster, this makes me reconsider some stuff.

theinspectorst ,
@theinspectorst@kbin.social avatar

Small sample sizes and idiosyncratic factors.

I agree that the 6 TOS movies on average are better than the 4 TNG movies on average. But if you remove Insurrection (which was fine) and Nemesis (which had a lot of flaws) from the mix, then that is no longer the case - so the question really becomes a narrower 'why is Instruction only okay and what went wrong with Nemesis?', rather than the broader 'TOS vs TNG' way you put it. If they stopped after First Contact, people would rave about the quality of the TNG movies.

Another way of looking at it is that if you alternatively removed TWOK (written and directed by Nicholas Meyer), TVH (written by Nicholas Meyer) and TUC (written and directed by Nicholas Meyer) from the TOS list then the comparison would also no longer be clear cut. In which case you could also phrase your question as 'why was Nicholas Meyer so good at making Star Trek movies?'

startrekexplained OP ,

Good point. Nick Meyer was really good at making Trek films I guess.

MooseGas ,
@MooseGas@kbin.social avatar

I was like you once. Then, one day I realized that i really enjoyed watching first contact. It may even be my favourite of all of the start trek movies, original and TNG.

Eventually, I even appreciated insurrection. It is a little more light hearted than the other TNG movies. When the old crew began to feel younger, it just makes you happy.

That being said, I also watched the first star trek movie again recently, which is easily the one I've watched the least of all of them, and I will say I really enjoyed it. Maybe my tastes are just changing. Maybe my mind is going. Who knows.

startrekexplained OP ,

Oh I love First Contact, and it’s my favorite of all the films still. But that’s just one film out of four. Most of the TOS movies I like, whereas most of the TNG films not so much. But I don’t begrudge anyone who disagrees.

Yeah I love Star Trek 1 now, I hated it so much as a kid though. But either its just better for adults or the Directors Cut is just that much better, because I really enjoy the film.

UESPA_Sputnik ,
@UESPA_Sputnik@feddit.de avatar

A lot of people criticized Insurrection for being like a two-part episode of TNG (as in: doesn’t feel like a movie). But isn’t that … good? It’s TNG. We got more of TNG. 🤷🏻‍♂️ I like Insurrection. It’s not my favourite Star Trek movie but it’s a damn good movie for being Star Trek. Except, you know, when Picard beams off the exploding vessel and lets the villain die because that’s what Movie Picard does.

startrekexplained OP , (edited )

Except, you know, when Picard beams off the exploding vessel and lets the villain die because that’s what Movie Picard does.

They cut the scene of Picard offering to save the villain, because…I guess it’s cooler to just let him die.

Anyway, I don’t think Insurrection is bad because it feels like a TNG episode, I think it’s bad because its shot in a tv movie style with a plot that makes no sense and even kinda craps all over Star Trek’s philosophy. I do appreciate they tried to create a Star Trek style moral dilemma though. Generations feels more like a theatrical version of a TNG two parter and is better for it IMO.

Crackhappy ,
@Crackhappy@lemmy.world avatar

The remastered directors cut of Star Trek The Motion Picture is phenomenal and is entirely unlike all the other Trek films, IMHO.

startrekexplained OP ,

Yeah I admit Star Trek 1 is the most “Star Trek” of all the movies, in a good way. So from that angle, it’s the best film.

uralsolo ,

I feel the same way. I think it’s just because the TNG films wanted to turn Picard into Kirk and frankly Patrick Stewart can’t carry an action scene (neither can any of the rest of the TNG crew tbh). The TNG cast would have been perfect to do a plot about space whales or a dangerous anomaly flying towards Earth, but they kept trying to do The Wrath of Khan instead.

Also a pox on everyone who says that Motion Picture or The Search for Spock are bad.

startrekexplained OP ,

Yeah, I agree, the films trying to copy the Wrath of Khan to this day is a bad thing. And I don’t even think Wrath of Khan is that great to be honest. Star Trek I and IV have IMO the best Star Trek style plots in fact, which is why I appreciate and like them a lot more now, whereas as a kid I hated them both.

Search for Spock is okay as a movie, but it’s more of a fantasy magic movie than sci fi and I don’t like the plot so its kinda weak to me.

karmiclychee ,

Sorry, I’m still watching the opening sequence of motion picture, I’ll let you know what I think when it’s done.

/snark

But for real, I feel like the last season of Picard was finally a chance to see the TNG TV characters in action in a TNG movie.

theinspectorst ,
@theinspectorst@kbin.social avatar

TMP and TSFS certainly aren't bad, they're just not at the extremely high standard of TWOK, TVH and TUC.

gregorum ,
@gregorum@lemm.ee avatar

Patrick Stewart, and Rick Berman

cyd ,

This is the answer, unfortunately.

GreenPlasticSushiGrass ,
@GreenPlasticSushiGrass@kbin.social avatar

Reminding me of how much the TNG movies sucked actually makes me a bit less critical of the Picard series.

startrekexplained OP ,

The first two seasons of Picard are far worse IMO

GreenPlasticSushiGrass ,
@GreenPlasticSushiGrass@kbin.social avatar

Let's face it, apart from nostalgia, season 3 was also pretty bad. I couldn't believe they did the long-lost son thing for the third time (Kirk, then Picard, then Picard again), then did a bait-and-switch Borg thing which still doesn't make sense. It was nice to see some of the Enterprise D crew reunite and give the fans some closure, even if the writers ignored years of character development, in some cases.

startrekexplained OP ,

Season 3 wasn’t great, but it wasn’t the surreal painful experience the first two seasons were. I’m not a fan of the series in general though

reddig33 ,

Season two was the pits. Just a low budget fever dream. Also, Rios and the actor who played him got screwed.

startrekexplained OP ,

Yeah it was a really really bad season of television. Best forgotten

maegul ,
@maegul@lemmy.ml avatar

It was the season that convinced me Kurtzman era trek is inherently problematic. Despite not enjoying Discovery I never really considered the era bad or anything, it was just stumbling blocks and such. Somewhere in that second season, as the credits rolled on an episode, it all hit me: I don’t like Kurtzman Trek and it’s all been a somewhat deeply felt disappointment to me.

That being said, I think Kurtzman era has the opposite curse from Burman … the first seasons are the best.

I think, apart from the spore drive stuff (seriously, I tried a rewatch and couldn’t get passed it’s proper introduction) Disco S1 kicks ass.

And Picard S1, or at least its premise and first few episodes, is the best new-Trek that’s been made, by a long shot. Unfortunately the season faltered because it tried to do too much and made some unfortunate mistakes (British Romulan seduction plot, evil British romulan sister, romulan spy as admiral, more Raffi and less Laris, unfortunately I think Raffi is at the heart of the shoe going wrong … she and laris should have been folded into a single character). But otherwise, it brought Trek forward into a new direction with enough nostalgia to get us oldies into it.

SNW is great, but ultimately, since S1, it’s becoming a TOS prequel verging on reboot now. For that reason, however good S2 was, I feel like on rewatch I’m not going to be able to ignore the amount of Kirk in it. And even apart from that, and I’m saying this as someone who loves it, it’s ultimately more nostalgic than Picard. Returning to the tried and true vibe isn’t a good sign IMO. Think of DS9 and even TNG and what they did relative to what came before.

startrekexplained OP ,

I didn’t like Discovery or Picard right from the beginning I admit, I’ve never been a huge fan of NuTrek, but SNW, Lower Decks and Prodigy are decent shows, but nowhere near TOS and TNG era Trek IMO

maegul ,
@maegul@lemmy.ml avatar

Oh lower decks is a different beast all together. It’s great, and not coincidentally Kurtzman doesn’t have anything to do with it, AFAICT. Haven’t seen prodigy apart from first couple of episodes. But I can see it being good in ways different from the rest of Kurtzman trek.

startrekexplained OP ,

Yeah Lower Decks is run by fans of the franchise, and it shows (in a good way).

flamingmongoose ,

Prodigy gets more star treky later on and actually has the most coherent season arc of the Kurtzman era (it introduces an actually interesting new species)

setsneedtofeed , (edited )
@setsneedtofeed@lemmy.world avatar

SNW is leagues better than other nuTrek, but I still find myself wishing that it would dial back the quirky millennial dialog.

When somebody in Star Trek says “cool” they’d better be talking about a temperature.

I found it really weird in the Lower Decks crossover episode how the LD characters lampshaded how slowly everyone in the SNW era talks, because the SNW characters don’t have that slower stage acting delivery that’s been throughout the rest of Trek.

Otherwise, I do appreciate mostly SNW’s design choices. I like M’Benga being an actual character (even if I think the details are sometimes mishandled) and I like the complete re-imagining of Nurse Chapel.

Number Two openly being an augment in Starfleet so early in the timeline feels really weird. I know it was supposed to be uplifting, but it makes Bashir’s problems in DS9 so strange.

startrekexplained OP ,

Yeah I agree with everything you said

thunderclap ,

Season 1 was tolerable, 2 forgettable. 3 was fun for nostalgia and I liked they mostly retconned 2.

maegul ,
@maegul@lemmy.ml avatar

Somewhat related, in another thread here, someone else and myself had the idea that All Good Things would have made a better premise for a TNG film and it might have been cool to swap generations and AGTs. Or at least have Q film. Might have felt more cinematic in the sense you’re thinking of.

All that being said, First Contact is my favourite Trek film and I’ve got soft spurs for both generations and insurrection (except for the kid, why does Hollywood think bratty boys are good ideas in movies).

I’m not sure I actually like any of the TOS films that much TBH. I like the vibe of TMP and I like the story Abe overall directing of TUC (prob my fav TOS film). But I’m not sure about the others.

startrekexplained OP ,

Yeah I agree that All Good Things should have been a big feature film. It’s my favorite TNG episode and probably favorite Trek episode of all time.

teft ,
@teft@startrek.website avatar

It’s the even numbered movies that are good (2,4,6, First Contact, Nemesis). There’s even a TVTrope about it.

electrorocket ,

Meh, 1 and 3 are pretty good too, Insurrection is like a pretty good double episode and Nemesis is the worst of them all. Well, maybe tied with V.

startrekexplained OP ,

I thought Nemesis broke that? Since at least IMO, it wasn’t very good

GraniteM ,

If you count Galaxy Quest, which was released in between Insurrection and Nemesis, then the Odd=Bad / Even=Good pattern holds.

startrekexplained OP ,

Good point lol

maegul ,
@maegul@lemmy.ml avatar

Low key Woah! From me on that one.

Taleya ,

And the ATOS runs on a mirror pattern because…it’s an alternate universe

LibraryLass ,

1 and 3 are both great, and I’ll go against the grain and say that 4 is pretty mediocre.

CraigeryTheKid ,

I think your last sentence answers it for me.

The TNG movies felt like “big episodes” to me. That said, I still liked them fine enough.

startrekexplained OP ,

Generations and Insurrection especially feel like episodes, though I actually like Generations kinda for that reason, as it feels like a big budget episode and makes me nostalgic. Insurrection is just lazy and therefore I didn’t like it

Doug ,

I think while Insurrection and Nemesis are widely agreed as bad next gen movies I would argue they’re better than the worst original movies.

If you can’t acknowledge Motion Picture as bad I don’t know that we can have the discussion on a solid base though.

startrekexplained OP ,

I used to despise Star Trek 1 but recently saw the HD Directors Cut version and loved it.

Doug ,

I’ll admit I haven’t seen that but it would have to be some impressive magic.

My wife has never managed to stay awake past the opening sweep around the Enterprise but I can’t say it really gets better.

michaelgemar ,
@michaelgemar@mstdn.ca avatar

@Doug @startrek That scene was pure fan service, and after a decade in the wilderness this fan at least loved it.

Doug ,

I’ve heard accounts both ways. I’m not quite old enough to have seen it new, but I’ve known people who said it was fantastic and people who said it was never better than it is now.

Shrug

spittingimage ,
@spittingimage@lemmy.world avatar

What is it people don’t like about Motion Picture? I haven’t watched it since I was a child.

startrekexplained OP ,

I hated it as a kid because of its very slow pace and weirdness. Now I love it for its visual style and atmosphere and sci fi plot.

Doug ,

It’s slow with bad pacing. There’s are things that are obviously supposed to look impressive but even if they ever did (for which there’s disagreement between the nerds old enough to remember) it absolutely did not age well. Those are the obvious ones off the top of my head without having watched it in a few years.

I guess I’ll have to give this HD director’s cut a shot but I’m pretty skeptical.

CaptObvious ,

STTMP theatrical release was gods-awful even in the 70s. The more recent directors cut actually salvages it. I rather like it these days.

startrekexplained OP ,

I guess that’s why I like it now, saw the Directors Cut.

electrorocket ,

The soundtrack is probably the best part. I saw it in the theater a few months ago, and it blew my socks off. I only ever heard it on VHS with a mono tv speaker. I bought the vinyl a couple of weeks ago.

startrekexplained OP ,

The music and the visuals are awesome in the film, at least this new version available

Crackhappy ,
@Crackhappy@lemmy.world avatar

I had a 4 track reel to reel of Star Trek 2s soundtrack and I would play it on my dad’s kickass sound system. Still my favorite movie soundtrack followed closely by LOTR.

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