Bernie Sanders Champions 32-Hour Work Week With No Loss in Pay ( www.commondreams.org )

As part of his Labor Day message to workers in the United States, Sen. Bernie Sanders on Monday re-upped his call for the establishment of a 20% cut to the workweek with no loss in pay—an idea he said is “not radical” given the enormous productivity gains over recent decades that have resulted in massive profits for corporations but scraps for employees and the working class.

“It’s time for a 32-hour workweek with no loss in pay,” Sanders wrote in a Guardian op-ed as he cited a 480% increase in worker productivity since the 40-hour workweek was first established in 1940.

“It’s time,” he continued, “that working families were able to take advantage of the increased productivity that new technologies provide so that they can enjoy more leisure time, family time, educational and cultural opportunities—and less stress.”

Whimsical ,

I’m hoping the push for a 32 hour week gains enough traction that we could actually feasibly negotiate a 9-day sprint (2 week period) as the “middle ground”, at least until the next wave of negotiations pushes further.

Gimme every other monday off, that way I’m always working toward either a long weekend or an early weekend

Thursday ,

I tell people time and time again that work starts at 9 and end at 3pm, everything after is shuffling paper and killing time.

Kit ,

I started working a 6:30am-2:30pm job and it’s life changing. The first hour is just getting settled, I spend lunchtime organizing my calendar and Emails, and I still have time for a full day of activities after work.

Thursday ,

I am super jealous. Imagine finishing work and have time to hang out with your friends and family. Living the dream.

KyuubiNoKitsune ,

Being up that early (for me) means I need to be in bed by 10pm, so home by 9. Most of my friends are not available at 3pm and usually stay out until 10-11. It can lead to feeling very isolated in my experience.

I’m not OP but I worked a 6-3 job for a year or so, gladly swapped it out for a 10-7pm, get to sleep in and stay put late.

But it’s all about preferences and priorities.

SweetSitty ,

I think that the stage of life you’re in would also play a huge part in what hours you’d prefer. When I was single, I’d prefer later hours like you so I could have a more relaxed morning. Now that I’m married with kids, however, an earlier schedule would mean more family time. Especially as school events are often scheduled for the early evening.

SheeEttin ,

I’m single and I enjoy the early work because it means I have more time after work to do things with friends (or go to the gym or whatever)

KyuubiNoKitsune ,

I guess if your friends are available before normal work hours end, it makes sense.

KyuubiNoKitsune ,

Most definitely. Most of my life was external to my home, so having others available at the same time was important. I’d probably feel much the same as you if I had a family.

Aux ,

My workplace only requires me a few things: to get shit done before deadlines and to be present in company meetings, which usually happen between 9:00 and 12:00. And I also have virtually unlimited holidays, sick leave, etc as I live in Europe. I’d never move to the US to work.

BigBananaDealer ,
@BigBananaDealer@lemm.ee avatar

i wish i could do that, but my body is not programmed for such early rising. i tried and it is a wonder i didnt crash my car on the way to work

Kit ,

It’s definitely not for everyone! I’m one of those weirdos who wakes up super early every day naturally. My partner, on the other hand, naturally sleeps til 10 or 11.

vacuumflower ,

Well, jobs are different. It’s just that sometimes you get too tired to do anything effectively an hour or two before your work technically ends.

JohnDClay ,

Even 32 hours a week with a proportional decrease in pay would be a huge improvement.

Powerpoint ,

You shouldn’t have to take a cut in pay for this. Productivity has increased and the benefits of the productivity increase has only gone to the ultra wealthy.

JohnDClay ,

But negotiating only for higher wages per hour and lower hours as a package deal could make it harder to get either. It probably depends employer to employer, but doing both at the same time would be hard to make them do.

some_guy ,

Which is why we need to build class solidarity, unions, and strike. A hundred years ago, people fought for everything they could get. They didn’t say “safe working conditions or a 40h work week.” They said, “we want all we can get.”

treefrog ,

A lot of people are struggling with inflation already. A 20% pay cut is not an improvement.

JohnDClay ,

Yeah not for everyone. I’m thinking higher paying areas like technology and programming where pay is high but people are getting really burned out.

treefrog ,

Yeah, I can see in those specific situations. Cost of living tends to be high in areas with a lot of technology jobs though so I don’t know.

I’m not those people so I can’t speak for them.

curiousaur ,

I’m a programmer, and it’s very different from hourly work. Realistically, any programmer is coding for like 1-2 hours a day. There are meetings so we understand the problem we have to solve, and a lot of time thinking through the problems and architecture solutions. We’re not sitting there typing for 8 hours a day, or at least those are the ones getting burned out. Realistically I’m working like 30 hours a week already, with only 10 hours being real coding, the rest being talking, researching, learning, and pondering. Maybe I’m lucky I work somewhere that that stuff isn’t seen as slacking.

Nemo ,

Ugh. I once did some independent programming and the guy insisted I do it in front of him because it involved his proprietary data. So much griping about the time I spent looking at documentation or referring to coding assistance sites like Stack Overflow. I quit on day two.

McScience ,

Honestly as a mid-career IT person, I’d take a 30-40% cut for that extra day without a second of hesitation.

SCB ,

While I like this idea, this is not the argument union leadership should be making to achieve this goal:

Our union’s membership is clearly fed up with living paycheck-to-paycheck while the corporate elite and billionaire class continue to make out like bandits," said Fain in a statement last week. "The Big Three have been breaking the bank while we have been breaking our backs

A change in hours does nothing to address pay discrepancies and you need to pick one lane and fight for it and get it, then attack the other direction.

fosforus ,

So he calls essentially for a 25% raise across the board for everybody. In some fields this doesn’t matter much. Office workers will probably achieve just as much or in some cases perhaps more in 32 hours than in 40 hours. Some other fields, perhaps less so.

If this would happen, it would directly lead to increased unemployment in some fields, and probably and increased inflation that might eat the benefit anyway in the end.

Still, even if I’m a bit skeptical, I’m all for lessening the hours we work, and all for spreading the productivity to more people and not just the top. I just think that the workers will need to take at least part of the hit to make this a realistic goal.

boletus ,

You’re getting down voted for expressing legitimate concerns, and nobody is giving reasons why they disagree with you. I thought we left this kind of interaction behind with reddit.

Anyways, any major shift will have downsides, but it doesn’t mean it isn’t viable in the long term.

fosforus ,

You’re getting down voted for expressing legitimate concerns, and nobody is giving reasons why they disagree with you. I thought we left this kind of interaction behind with reddit.

Settings => Show scores => disable ftw :)

treefrog ,

They’re using a lot of the same arguments the right uses to attack minimum wage and it’s generally untrue.

In places minimum wage has gone up, we haven’t seen staggering unemployment or inflation compared to similar places without minimum wage changes.

Going to a 32 hour work week should spur the job market if employers want the same number of work hours anyway. And more money and free time for the 90% is good for economic growth as we’re the ones who spend money rather than hoarding it.

So, I suspect the reason most people aren’t bothering to argue is that this same conversation has played out so many times for so many of us that we can’t be bothered with tited talking points being rehashed.

severien ,

I have same kind of reaction, just in the opposite direction. I’m fine with campaigning for higher salaries, I’m fine with campaigning for shorter work week, but I’m allergic to the combination of both, because it’s usually accompanied by claims that the productivity won’t go down as a result, which is simply delusional.

treefrog ,

There’s been studies showing shorter work weeks produce more. People work better when they’re less stressed/happier/less tired.

Sorry if that reeks of populism. I think you’re point of view reeks of authoritarianism tbh.

Because science shows less is more, when it comes to work and school. The only reason to continue the 40 hour work week is so capitalists can keep workers in their place.

And that’s not right.

severien ,

I have looked up some of those studies in the past and they measured productivity by the company revenue which seems incredibly flawed.

treefrog ,

I’ll have to read those studies more closely. And I hear you on the truck driver argument. That said, I’m sure less stressed/less tired truck drivers cause a lot fewer accidents. Which may have an impact on insurance premiums for companies that are in that business.

I guess my point is economic impact can be measured in various ways and it’s possible that everyone working less (and the 10% paying the other 90% of us a fair wage), will be a net benefit for society and the health of the individuals in society, and thus, a net benefit for the economy.

As a non-office worker (worked in food service my whole life), I’ve seen the direct effects on mental and physical health caused by being overworked and under paid. And those negative effects certainly spill over into the quality of service, as well as the potential for a accidents at work.

I know that’s anecdotal, but I think it also is a very reasonable observation that passes the common sense test anyway.

boletus ,

Anecdotal evidence: I work in software. We get more work done after time off, and much less work done near the end of a 5day work week, our data shows.

I’m curious how that applies to different fields.

Time is not directly proportional to productivity.

Nemo ,

My job, I notice I’m often somewhat off-flow after a vacation or an unexpected day off. But I also drop off significantly after six hours. RN I do work 32 hrs: 3x 6-hr days and 2x 7-hour days, more or less.

boletus ,

That’s a fair point, people would be making the same amount of money anyway and have more room to spend it. It would also decrease the likelihood of overtime due to penalty rates, and potentially increase the job slots as more people would need to work to fill the lost time for some jobs.

I suppose like anything, the best way to do it is gradually.

dangblingus ,

The extra money comes from the management not robbing their employees blind.

PersnickityPenguin ,

I would absolutely love to only work 32 hours a week instead of 40, 45 or 50.

I would also love four weeks vacation a year, full healthcare coverage and a unicorn in my backyard please.

ShadowZone ,
@ShadowZone@lemmy.world avatar

Except for the unicorn, your last paragraph is my reality. Oh and it’s five weeks vacation, actually. My wife even has six. Sick days not included. Those are all part of the universal health care we have.

38h work week btw. Rarely overtime.

Gingernate ,

EU?

Ricaz ,

It’s like this in all Scandinavian countries.

  • 6-7 weeks paid vacation.
  • Free healthcare (except dental. Also we still pay for prescription drugs, just not insane prices).
  • 37 hours per week.
  • Almost equal parental leave (you’re forced to take a month off work, paid of course, mothers a bit more, but then split is as you want).

And then keep in mind that we pay 40-60% taxes depending on income.

PersnickityPenguin ,

When we had our son, I had 2 weeks time off from work. HR sat me down and told me “by law, we can’t fire you until you take one day over the 2 weeks of unpaid time off. You are so lucky! You used to get zero time off. I remember when we had our baby, I worked until midnight while my wife was in labor.”

Then I was fired 3 months later for “subpar performance” and they noted I seemed fatigued and frequently forgot things. Like, no shit I had 3 hours of sleep per day for months.

We pay about 25-30% in taxes IIRC but health insurance bleeds you dry. We just incurred $4500 medical debt because my wife had to go to the hospital. $100,000 student loan debt. $35,000 child birthing costs, of which $8500 was out of pocket.

Ricaz ,

Yeah, all of those expenses would’ve been covered by the taxes where I live. Even the student debt - we get about $900 per month while studying and education is free.

Y’all need some democratic socialism

1984 ,
@1984@lemmy.today avatar

I have 35 days on my current job but it’s the first time. Normally it’s been 30. I’m in Sweden.

And we don’t work no 40 hours here. People come in around 9 and leave around 16 with an hour lunch break and a lot of talking and slacking during the day. This is in IT and it’s been like that on every IT job I’ve ever had.

Nobody can or want to focus for 8 hours per day their entire lives, that’s madness. We are humans. I usually focus for maybe 4 hours to get something done but I don’t push myself to work more then necessary. My salary doesn’t go up with more work produced.

PersnickityPenguin ,

Man that sounds so great. Currently work weeks are varying between 40,45 and 50. PM. I’m up to about 2 1/2 weeks vacation a year working for a small business. But at least they let me take it, unlike my friend who works at AWS who hasn’t had a vacation in 5 years.

Family also pays $2400/month in health insurance payments, although 2/3 of that is covered by our employer. $6,000 deductible.

Zaktor ,

Apart from the mystical horse, those aren’t fantastical things. France has a 35 hour work week, many countries have 4 weeks vacation as the norm, and most rich countries have full healthcare coverage. These are policy choices, not impossible dream worlds.

mrnotoriousman ,

It's sad that over here in America people are conditioned to think they are fantastical things.

severien ,

In Europe, 4 weeks is the absolute minimum, many countries have higher mandated minimums and people get often extra on top. There are many things wrong in Europe, but the vacation policy is decent.

PersnickityPenguin ,

Err, what is your main criticisms about Europe?

severien , (edited )

Regarding employment.

It’s pretty much given that the pension system of many countries will collapse, so young people are paying into a system which they either won’t be able to use or will be heavily disadvantaged. IMHO the pension system should be (at least partially) privatized, but it’s of course too late, damage is done.

Income is taxed too heavily and wealth too little. These days it’s pretty much impossible to buy a house for many families even though the population doesn’t grow and new houses are being built. You can’t amass wealth with work, only woth inheritance.

Some worker protection laws should be weakened, specifically laying off people is often pretty much impossible which makes people allocation inefficient and companies conservative.

Syldon ,
@Syldon@feddit.uk avatar

The vacation period is a minimum standard in the EU.

Beyond the daily and weekly rest periods, your staff has the right to at least 4 weeks of paid holidays per year. You cannot replace these holidays with a payment unless the employment contract has ended before the staff member has used up all their annual leave.

In the UK minimum holiday entitlement is 28 days. I am always appalled at how badly the US allows it workers to be treated. I really wish the US would start thinking more about working to live and not living to work.

Saneless ,

If people who are negatively affected by it would stop voting for people who make it a campaign promise to never offer these things, we can’t get anywhere

NuPNuA ,

I work 35 hours a week, have six weeks of holiday plus bank holidays and universal healthcare. It’s not impossible.

SCB ,

Fun fact: government-based healthcare of any sort is great for employers and employees, and results in more money for both

This assumes a “worst-case implementation” resulting in UK level taxes and just a change to who manages insurance/payment, and is true for both a public option and single-payer system.

Saneless ,

Oh please. Would that ever work, besides the dozens of countries and corporations that have managed without issues?

Shardikprime ,

Besides what would you do with the unicorn poop

PersnickityPenguin ,

Some organic fertilizer for the garden, of course!

Cryst ,

I have 5 weeks vacation and universal health care. I’m just pushing for the 32 hrs now.

treefrog ,

The unicorn comment makes me think you’re being a sarcastic ass.

The rest of your comment is 100% doable. At least, lots of other countries are doing it.

PersnickityPenguin ,

I was just kidding about the unicorn, as living in the US it seems just about as likely to get a unicorn as getting universal healthcare or vacation.

😅🦄

Anyway, my son loves unicorns and I grew up watching my little pony so whatever

treefrog ,

Fair enough.

Riyosha_Namae ,

It’s depressing that you’ve been convinced that full healthcare coverage is as unrealistic as a unicorn in your backyard.

MrBusinessMan ,

That’s simply not possible, I need my employees to be working more hours, not less. Last year I could barely afford my sailing trip to Aruba. If such a law passes I’m going to have to fire some people for sure or raise rents on my tenants.

LSNLDN ,

I know this is sarcastic but I can’t help read it in my literal bosses voice, who didn’t give us Christmas bonuses but did fix the sail on his yacht immediately after a storm for like £20k or some bs

Rakonat ,

Yeah even knowing full well it was sarcasm couldn’t help but hear it in the voice of my boss, who is so delusional they constantly talk about rolling back my department, the only one that actually makes money, cause our wages are too expensive (spoilers, they aren’t, 1/10th of our staff is on food stamps but our boss can afford a new luxury car.)

HelloHotel ,
@HelloHotel@lemmy.world avatar

Sorry to hear that, what they put foodstamp people through is horrific

Rakonat ,

Capitalism at work, record profits means checks notes. … more people than ever on welfare and increasingly impoverished working class… Huh

Riyosha_Namae ,

The less you pay your employees, the more money you get to keep.

s_s ,
@s_s@lemmy.one avatar

If such a law passes I’m going to have to fire some people for sure or raise rents on my tenants.

If gov’t intervention makes both those options impossible–might I suggest constant verbal and psychological abuse?

deadtom ,

Its funny how schizophrenic your posts are from thread to thread.

MrBusinessMan ,

Thank you

Riyosha_Namae ,

Or, y’know, you could just skip the sailing trip to Aruba.

Nemo ,

Would this include a 25% increase to hourly minimums? Because otherwise it only benefits salaried employees.

And what about workers who are paid by productivity and not time? Salespersons on commission, servers receiving tips, ride-share drivers?

I’m all for a 32-hour work-week; that’s what I have myself. But let’s not pretend this would be enough, or that the main beneficiaries are he working class.

subignition ,
@subignition@kbin.social avatar

"No loss in pay" as far as I can interpret it would mean getting paid the same for working 32 hours as you would have for working 40, yes

The autoworkers union the article refers to as an example is seeking a 46% pay rise to coincide with the transition to 32 hours.

AttackPanda ,

Why does it feel like it’s only ever Bernie Sanders that is pushing for life improvements.

deadtom ,

Cause he's one of the few that actually give a shit. Its why the DNC did everything in their power to scuttle his primary run. Can't have a president that actually wants to help the common American cause then the corporate overlords might lose their stranglehold on them.

refurbishedrefurbisher ,

Any kind of socialism (even relatively-speaking weak social democrats like Bernie) is severely underrepresented in US politics due to the influence of private money/capital in the government and in elections. The two party system/first past the post voting doesn’t help matters either.

SCB ,

Any kind of socialism (even relatively-speaking weak social democrats like Bernie)

This move is not socialism and calling it socialism makes it harder to pass on America.

If you’re in a gun fight, don’t start tossing your opponent ammunition.

Saneless ,

Thank you

We’ve already proven that idiots don’t understand the words they parrot, so attaching it to one they hate is just stupid.

Same thing with shit like vaccines and autism. Don’t even put the two in the same sentence. It’s not even worth legitimizing the bullshit the handlers put out there

Shardikprime ,

Calling them idiots while searching for their support does wonders however

Saneless ,

Oh I’m sure that’s what keeps them from taking a pro-american stance, the name calling

phillaholic ,

Because he doesn’t have to accomplish anything. Does he have a plan for this? Has he done any due diligence on transition? Has he studied the impact on small business vs large business? It’s easy to tell people what they want to hear. It’s harder to implement. Studies have shown it working in other countries, but that’s nowhere near enough to just make it happen in the US.

ccunix ,

Why does it feel like it’s only ever Bernie Sanders that is pushing to bring the US inline with Europe?

GoodEye8 ,

As someone from Europe I would absolutely love a 32 hour work week without any pay cut. In my previous company I bargained myself a 32 hour work week with a pay cut and it was excellent, it felt like I had so much free time to do other things.

treefrog ,

Because 95% of them are on the corporate dime.

Matt_Shatt ,

I mean, cool, but nothing will happen because one old guy says this.

pizza-bagel ,

There have been studies showing no loss in productivity too. But rich people want to fuck us over for no reason 🤷‍♀️

crazyminner ,
@crazyminner@sh.itjust.works avatar

There is a reason. If our lives get too easy, that gives us time to enact our free will and choose to do things they don’t want.

Instead they keep us focused on paying the next bill.

More time to work on your community means that people have less food bills and health bills and rent. If we help eachother out were not helping them.

WalrusDragonOnABike ,

Someone has to be an early proponent of it. Its not we could go from no congresspersons says such to suddenly one minute all of them decide to announce they support it simultaneously.

phillaholic ,

It doesn’t mean much coming from Bernie. He’s all talk. He says these things but he rarely has thought out plans on them.

WalrusDragonOnABike ,

What's he supposed to do? Blackmail, threaten, or kill most of congress? Until he has plans for those, having bills written won't do much but waste time that he could be better using talking about the ideas.

Zoboomafoo ,
@Zoboomafoo@lemmy.world avatar

He’s never tried being friendly with his coworkers, maybe he should give that a go

phillaholic ,

I can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic. A group of 100 having to do what 1 person says is not a democracy. The vibes on this subject are uncomfortably authoritarian. We’re talking about fundamental level stuff here. If you’re in a group of friends deciding where to go to dinner, people can vote and compromise on where they want to go, or you can have one person have total control and decide for everyone. The latter isn’t how the US should be run.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

He proposes bills all the time. It’s not his fault the rest of the corrupt senate won’t give them a fair hearing.

phillaholic ,

Bills themselves aren’t well thought out plans. He needs to work with his peers to get legislation passed, not just write up his ideals and act like everyone will fall in line. That’s not how anything works.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

When his peers are all owned by corporations, how can he?

phillaholic ,

If the “reform” in work reform is a serious attempt and not just a circle jerk comments like these are not productive.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

And yet, it’s true. Name one other senator that hasn’t been bought.

phillaholic ,

Give me a clear definition of “been bought.”

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Do you really not know how lobbying works?

dangblingus ,

How do you think politics works? It’s all talk. Then they vote on a bill.

phillaholic ,

Groups of elected representatives are put into committees that workshop ideas / bills and gauge interest. In order to pass committee and receive broad support, riders are typically added to allow other representatives to get something for their constituents. Compromises are made, not everyone gets everything they want, and we move forward.

Senators don’t make proclamations with no plans and immediately get bills passed.

Zaktor ,

Seriously. People must think the $15 min wage and student debt forgiveness just sprung from nothingness to have support across the party. These things start with progressives making the case and saying “this is possible”.

z3rOR0ne ,
@z3rOR0ne@lemmy.ml avatar

By that logic, nothing will happen because one person ever said anything.

dangblingus ,

You’re underestimating how influential Bernie is. He’ll never be POTUS, but he got into people’s heads in a big way.

unfreeradical ,
@unfreeradical@lemmy.world avatar

No.

You have to join a union or form a union.

If your workplace is already organized, then build further strength through solidarity, help other workers around you, and at every turn find ways to erode the power of the bosses.

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