Lots of bickering about how it works now vs how it should work. Meanwhile I’m going crazy that nobody is pointing out how much of the burden of the commute is placed on the worker. It’s literally thousands of dollars a year in being licensed to drive, vehicle registration, insurance costs, variable and ever increasing gas prices, repair and maintenance. Every single aspect of the commute is a burden on the worker, and corporations take it for granted. It’s not factored into most people’s pay rate or compensation. Whether or not the employer should be held responsible for relieving some of the burden, we should recognize that workers need to lessen this burden one way or another. Increasing tax deductibles to include commute time isn’t an unreasonable first step. Treat it just like travel for any other work related reason.
I’ve been lucky enough to have one job that did pay for transit. Specifically, they would pay for a weekly bus pass for any employer that wanted one, plus monthly bikeshare membership for any employee that wanted that. It was solid.
You americans propably see this differently, but in europe it’s very simple:
The employer need you to come to work. He doesn’t care where you live and how long your commute is.
The worker can chose an employer close to his home, or relocate and live close to the employer. Generally, if it’s a priority, the worker can live within walking distance of the employer. If other priorities overrule proximity, there’s likely still public transport to get to work.
So you are saying it ought to be this way or it already is?
In the Netherlands it’s quite common to receive €0.21 per km tax free (which doesn’t cover the cost of the commute unless you ride a bicycle). I have a job that comes with an EV as a perk, including all charging expenses for company and private use both. I only have to pay for charging outside of the Netherlands. I do pay an extra tax for private use, but since it’s an EV that’s not a big amount at the moment. Some people receive a country wide public transit pass as a perk.
So if your claim is that there is no commute compensation anywhere in Europe, you’re wrong. If you say it ought not to exist, well then I simply disagree.
As a government subsidy it’s quite different from an employer benefit.
A public transport ticket as a perk is also very different. That’s the same for all employees.the way k read the headline, it’s about paying for the time spent commuting.
Yes it is different. But in this case it is both. The company pays that €0.21, which the tax office should normally see as an income for the employee. So the subsidy is in not taxing this income.
The public transit pass (which can be used privately) is not taxed at all.
Tl;dr for paragraph below: EV company cars that are driving privately get big tax benefits
Same goes for the car. Normally a lease car lease is quite expensive and if the employer pays for it, it is seen as an income for the employee IF the employee uses the car privately. This is taxed yearly as if you would have received 22% of the new value of the car per year. So a €100,000 car is taxed as if you’ve received €22,000 in extra income. Depending on what tax bracket you’re in you pay quite a bit of tax on that. Now for EV’s it depends on the year in which the car was registered. I have a car that cost €43,000 from 2020 which is taxed at 8%, so it is taxed only as if I made €3,440 more. This tax comes down to roughly €150 per month which is very roughly €250 less than I’d have paid for a gas car. So a subsidy in essence. This is why you see so many EVs in the Netherlands, though tax benefits are much lower these days.
Now for the part about paying for time rather than travel expenses. Yes, that’s indeed far less common unfortunately. But such measures do lessen the burden somewhat.
this is exactly the logic in the US as well. except we’re more tethered to jobs because of our malignant healthcare system and general lack of a social safety net. and most of us barely, barely have public transport as an option
I just spent a couple weeks in Germany and Spain. The weather was nice, not too hot not humid even in September. Cities are walkable with clear defined pedestrian paths and bike lanes. Rent was affordable (I looked at a few places for fun and everything was cheaper than the dump I live in far from city center). Seems like it’s way easier to live close to work and commute on foot or by bike than it is here.
Take a look at this video about North American stroads. It’s really enlightening about how awful commuting is in the US (and maybe Canada but idk).
I watched the first half, and it started getting repetitive. But I don’t recall suburbs being mentioned. The way I see it, single family homes are the main reason for your american urban planning. low density makes area consumption big, and thus travel distances. With them comes traffic, and with that big roads.
The point is that America stroads are designed for cars, not for walking. It’s about our urban design in general which effects everything, including commuting.
I think this makes the most sense. Increasing mobility makes Capitalism more efficient. Public transportation should also be free because of the benefits they have on society. People should also be taxed on miles driven with an additional cost based on weight of the vehicle. Then subtract work commute mileage from salary and tax the remainder.
Also, I remember paying for travel time when we needed a technician to come to our house and service something. So there is already precedent that traveling for work counts as work in itself. Hopefully that actually went to the tech and not their boss.
I like working in the office, but I hate having to spend an unpaid amount of time commutinh to work. If I could get paid travel time I’d be a very happy man.
Yeah, this is it. While I prefer WFH, I don’t mind working in the office, but I don’t want to spend more time driving to and from, that’s just more lost free time.
My company actually closed the office where I worked because we all went 100% remote and they never forced the issue. It wouldn’t have helped their case that we have dozens of other employees all over the country not linked to either of the company’s offices.
I consider my commute part of my work day. If it takes me an hour each way, I’m only in the office for 6 hours. I go home to “finish up the day” but don’t really get a lot done other than light emailing.
When I worked in Belgium not only did they pay for your transit costs, they even paid for your car, phone, and lunch. Granted the car and phone were contingent on you having a use for them for your work, but still.
The car is because they don’t pay you shit for actual salary and a car is a huge tax cut (they budget 500 euros per month at my company). However, CoL is lower than America in most places.
They don’t pay your transit costs, some jobs have “meal check” compensation so 8€ per day or so. Not bad. Only some companies give phones. Probably ad many give work phones in America.
Also there is minimal or no pension fund contribution in many/most jobs and the pension system is on the brink of collapse it seems. No Roth IRAs here or anything. Don’t get paid enough to invest in anything. Everything goes into the house here because almost every single house that is affordable to people under 40 has to be stripped and fully renovated.
Also jobs are scarce right now. 2 companies hiring for PCB design stuff within 25 km of my house…
But as a whole, 32 required days of holiday by law, going to the doctor costs 4€ instead of 400, there isn’t any stigma about using all of your holiday, and consumer and worker protections are very good! Plus great public transportation.
A lot of those problems are true in the US/Canada as well (maybe more so; eg. pension). But unlike the US/Canada you get compensated for lunch and transit. AND you get a huge amount of time off. That alone is already drastically better than what you get in the US/Canada. Sure, if you make big bucks that’s mostly moot, but most people don’t.
It would be better if there was a standard calculation like:
Commute time = time it would take to commute by public transport from the nearest residential area that could house a family on the income of the worker in question
That puts positive pressure on improving cost of housing, and improving speed of public transport
And were they to try to play the system by getting high speed trams linking a poor, cheap area to the CBD, that would quickly no longer be a cheap place to buy
Workers aren’t grasping the managerial challenges of leading a remote workforce.
Cry me a fucking river
Each year, the average American spends nearly $8,500 and 239 hours traveling to and from work, per data from Clever Real Estate.
One could argue that’s “good” because it makes the wheel of economy turn. Gas pollution alone would make me say this is bad for all involved (except oil companies and their shareholders, but they can go fuck themselves)
Still, though, WFH Research also finds that fully remote work is associated with 10% to 20% lower productivity than fully in-person work [<- link to the research paper, go to page 10]. Barrero explained the disparity to Fortune in July: “In many of the studies we cite and in some of our own survey evidence, workers often get more done when remote simply because they save time from the daily commute and from other office distractions. This can make them look more productive on a ‘per day’ basis, even if it means they’re actually less productive on a ‘per hour’ basis.”
There’s no reason to “go above and beyond” when you’re in the comfort of your home. It’s why perceived “per hour” productivity drops. Besides, nobody actually works 8 hours straight, there are several pauses, even in an office or factory. We’re not robots.
When that commute is eliminated, they view it as a productivity increase. Employers, naturally, instead see it as less bang for their buck.
“You’ll waste precious hours of your day and you WILL LIKE IT, WAGESLAVE!”
Challenges in communicating remotely and lack of motivation are the main issues preventing fully remote workers from being more productive
Good luck motivating me to waste 2h every day without any raise or compensation in order to be “more productive in the office”
Commutes are part of the work day if the employer does not allow WFH. How else is the employee supposed to show up for work?
There is no reason to debate, it’s clear as day. But the greedy, rich assholes on the reins think everyone should be honored to waste their lives working under them.
Commutes are part of the work day if the employer does not allow WFH. How else is the employee supposed to show up for work?
This.
Our country went mostly work-from-home for over a year, and people were more productive, not less. If you’re going to inconvenience your work force unnecessarily then you should pay for it, absolutely.
Sounds like commuting is an incredibly stupid and inefficient waste of time. Maybe this hypothetical company would get better performance from their employees if they didn’t have a commute. Maybe letting them work from home?
That means we’ll just stop hiring people who live far away, even in the person is willing to make the commute.
No change from the status quo. As it stands, employees move next to their workplace because nobody is ok with a 4-hour commute. It’s impossible even if you give up on social life.
I have it easier as a contractor, I have a MD rate and then I have a MD rate with commute + having to be in the office that’s twice the MD rate, they can decide if they really need me tp be there.
It’s a bit rude to say “8 hours at work, 8 for recreation, 8 for sleep” when the work is actually half an hour to an hour longer with the alleged “lunch break”, and rats into the recreation time typically an hour at each end
So really it’s 8 hours at work, 3 hours work related, 5 hours recreation (nb recreation time is also spent in the “recreation” of making oneself sufficiently presentable to attend the office), and 8 hours of sleep/missing sleep worrying about whether you can afford to commute (fuel, parking, bus fares) in the few days before pay day
i agree with this entire thing, but just for the pretense of seeming balanced, the commute home from work is often quite recreational imo. working from home and simply closing a browser is less satisfying than speeding away from the evil building. [but it is better in every other way]
Nah, driving home in the afternoon/evening rush was even more infuriating than the drive to work because it just seemed even slower and more time-consuming, eating into the vanishingly little time you have left for yourself
I used to work for a company that had the right idea. We brought our work trucks home, and our work day started when we turned the key, and ended when we got home.
Had to be at a job for 8 and it was an hour away? You were paid for that. Only had a job 5 minutes away? Enjoy the extra sleep in time and the short commute home.
Now, this is way different than an office job that is stationary, but there is definitely a conversation to be had about it. If nothing else, it may have more companies going back to taking WFH seriously again instead of needlesslt forcing people back into office spaces in order to prop up the commercial real estate sector.
When I had a 1hr commute through heavy city traffic, I needed a break when I walked in the door. It took me at least an hour to get up the energy to do anything. Most of the time I would sip coffee while pretending to read e-mails or talk to coworkers. My body might be there but I wasn’t doing anything. So the company was paying for my recovery time from the “work” of the commute.
I don’t know why any company would push an employee into a long commute if it’s not necessary. It costs the company a ton of money in productivity.
It’s the problem with companies focusing on time spent, not productivity. I can waste a ton of time and get nothing done if I am so inclined.
I don’t know why any company would push an employee into a long commute if it’s not necessary.
I mean, they aren’t. Unless you are dealing with something like being a housekeeper for a rich neighborhood, most bosses would love it if you lived within 30 minutes of the office.
But the reality of the housing problem is that you MIGHT be able to afford an apartment near the office. But if you want to “put down roots”, you are living on the outskirts of town. And if you look at something like the insanity that is The Bay Area, “the outskirts of town” seems to move by 10-100 miles every few years.
And… it is real shitty, but that is part of the push for hybrid schedules. If you live three hours away from the office then nobody will ever want to call you in. But… sometimes they can’t help it. And now they have the mess of “Well, The V lives 3 hours away so do we have to pay them? We don’t pay Susie who lives 30 minutes away and it isn’t fair to her that she has to spend an extra five hours a day in the office… But we also can’t give The V what is effectively a day off every time they have an in person meeting…” So the “hope” is that people will… sell their houses and go back to getting exploited by a slum lord?
This idea that to be stable or put down roots means buying a single family home in the suburbs is one of the biggest problems in America. Because of this idea, there’s so little high quality medium density housing designed for families in cities, which only reinforces this idea. It causes people spread out, they isolate, they use more energy to live and commute, they don’t have experiences with a diverse group of people.
In many Labor Economic Models, the distinction in Time is measured as Time spent working vs Time spent not working, in which the commute is factored. Many companies deal with people’s reluctance to commute by offering better pay or better benefits (if they’re seeking specific skillsets that are more difficult to find close by), but sometimes you find a gem like your company.
I know it would be difficult to implement for many companies, but I wish more companies did something like that when they could. The company I work for doesn’t pay for commutes from home, but will pay for them if you are temporarily relocated to a different office by calculating the distance between the two offices and average fuel price
From what understand that is following the U.S. tax code. The commute from your home to your assigned work location is considered the employees responsibility. If they are temporarily assigned to another location further away, the difference in mileage is considered a business expense. In some states they are required to pay the employee. In others it’s an allowable wage theft, the company claims the mileage and doesn’t reimburse the employee.
I drive a work vehicle. I have to declare how many personal miles I used the vehicle for yearly. Personal miles are all non-company related miles and the commute to my primary office. This benefit is considered income and taxed.
Currently my primary office is my home so 95% of my miles are business. At my last job they assigned my primary office to one 20 miles away (even though I was only there 1 day every 2 weeks). As such 20% of my miles were personal. A real dick move in my opinion but perfectly legal.
When I did WFH my boss insisted that because I didn’t have to commute I should have all my tools up before my shift even starts.
I didn’t last very long.
This same company got sued up the ass when we were in office for trying to say we needed to have all our tools up before clocking in. But somehow WFH made it ok.
Any kind of work, should be after you clock in. Getting equipment, tools, software started etc. is work. Companies trying to deny that should be reported.
Pre-shift prep time is paid. At my last shift job, we were expected to be there and ready before the shift started, but we also got paid for that time.
Commute is part of the work day, but unpaid. In fact, avoiding commutes in big cities are one of the main advantages of remote work. In some cases, it is nearly, or even more, two hours back and forth an office or a plant. If people could go to the irs jobs just with a 15-20 minutes walk, it would be a very different issue, but mainly is an hour of traffice jams or packed metros and buses.
If commute should was part of the daily hours, we would see employers preoccupied because there would be people working 6 hours or less in the office or the plant, so they would ask for better transit systems and more affordable housing that implied nota having to go to live 40-50 km away because prices are unpayable nearer. Many of them would allow remote work more easily.
The amazing part is lots can, and that would instantly decongest infrastructure so that those who did have to go in would have an easier time about it.
Only people who work in the relatively few jobs that cam be done from home believe most jobs can be done from home. Y’all are in a white collar bubble.
If it was possible for 70% of the country to work from home when it was suddenly needed, and even now 30-40% still do with a booming market economy, the only bubble appears to be the one the media is creating around your ears with the dollars their corporate overlords are paying them.
You’re right and that pisses me off. I didn’t realize how many jobs like that there are. Most recent data I can find says at least a third of all jobs can be done from home.
Fuck you lucky fucks. 0% of my industry can be done from home. I hate all of you.
Seriously this only works for like white collar office work and even then not really. Anyone working with inventory or warehouse and all the jobs that are food service and other onsite management go where?
They don’t want to admit it but it really does not work for more than a specific group of office jobs.
I looked into it and there’s a LOT more of those useless office jobs than I thought. Something like at least a third of all jobs can be done fully remote. I’m jealous as fuck.
I would be jealous, if sitting at a desk didn’t make me wanna hang myself with an ethernet cable. I’m a process engineer in a steel mill and holy sweet fuck did I wanna die when I was WFH as a desk engineer. Bored out of my mind and feeling like I’ll never progress because I couldn’t even network well with managers/engineers like you can in a mill/in person office.
That’s when I learned at this point in my career, heavily WFH is not for me. I need challenged and I need hands on, 1 of those I very much cannot get at home
