I think the true conversation there got derailed by semantics. Clearly he feels anger but what I think he was asking was if it is healthy to always shut it down and internalize it. In my opinion, the answer to that was a resounding “no”. By not dealing with that anger, even when it’s disguised as “feeling dumb” (self-deprecation or sometimes even self-hate) or frustration, he has allowed it to fester, take up emotional real estate in his mind, and always be there waiting to bubble up or straight up burst when something seemingly unrelated triggers it.
I think Garnt was on the right emotional track originally. He intuitively knows that he has shit he should deal with rather than internalize. This is why I do not recommend taking the words of your therapy as gospel. Ultimately, if you are able to be self aware as Garnt seems to be, you will know you better. Therapy is a way to guide you towards the answers you seek or didn’t even know you were seeking. Therapy is not there to give you the answers. Maybe, hopefully, it is there to help you ask better questions.
I also clearly felt that he knew something had to be addressed and I also hope that as you mentioned he might feel more empowered to ask the right questions to himself now and be better at exploring this issue he has.
And your comment about therapy deeply resonates with me so thanks for sharing that I haven’t had it my feelings regarding it so succinctly spelled out before.
I don’t know all that much about his other content, but I feel he’s quite good at expressing his views and experiences.
And while I think there are many many topics for men’s liberation in general, I thought maybe a “less formal” post might also feel more approachable with less emphasis on theory or direct mentions of sociological issues.
The left has failed conservative men who search for simple answers and like clear rules and hierarchies. But I’m not sure what left can offer them in the first place.
No, the right is pulling boys and young men because they’re the only ones that acknowledge that these boys are not thriving in modern society. The left still generally still thinks that young middle class and working class boys and men are prospering from the patriarchy and late stage capitalism. This hasn’t been true for at least a few decades now.
Ironically patriarchy and right wing libertarianism is to blame for most of the problems of these young men so all we need to do is acknowledge their suffering and point them to the obvious socialist and left wing solutions to their problems.
These are mostly kids. Almost all are younger than 25, their brains are not fine developing. They just know they feel bad and they look to the simplest most enticing, path of least resistance to feel good.
Leftist ideology is complex and nuanced, but contains REAL solutions. Right wing rhetoric is simple but for most people it’s all empty promises and grifts. We do a great job creating accessible rhetoric for women, minorities, and LGBT+ persons and because of this these groups join in droves and obtain real improvement in their lives. We don’t do a great job of tailoring rhetoric to address the moden problems of young boys that the patriarchy creates.
That’s pretty much all I’m saying. I have a hard time understanding what there is to disagree with. I think you should look inside and think about what I said that you don’t like and why. Maybe you have something to learn or work through.
That’s pretty much all I’m saying. I have a hard time understanding what there is to disagree with. I think you should look inside and think about what I said that you don’t like and why. Maybe you have something to learn or work through.
Projecting much?
But I entertain your thought - what problems are boys facing that is not addressed by modern leftist ideology? And if you need it dumbed down and entertaining - there will be a youtube video about it.
But like you said yourself, if you are looking for “simplest most enticing, path of least resistance to feel good” - than obviously you will land with populist and snake oil sellers.
If you’re going do entertain my thought I’ll do yours!
I have one question from your assessment.
I feel like everyone wants the path of least resistance to feel good, and doesn’t look too hard unless they make politics and ideology an important part of their lives. I also think the right is trying to capture all demographics with snake oil populism. Why are they winning with young boys and not with young women, lesbians and gays (I almost added the BT+ but trying to wipe them out of existence slows recruitment drives I think), or minorities. I think it’s easy to say because they hate women and minorities but a lot of older women and minorities are strong right wingers. Are young boys are particularly wired to want snake oil compared to everyone else?
I think conservatives openly hating on women, LGBT+ and minorities might be indeed a reason why they are not as popular as with majority male young population. Not sure why you dismiss that argument. Young man, rich folks and just conservatives are the target demographic. But for a rebellious young teen boy (from my experience) it’s toss up if he wants to be edgy as left or as right. Maybe right has a slight edge right now since mainstream media became extremely fake left leaning - so maybe if I was a teen right now, I myself would lean more to the right.
So your turn: what problems are boys facing that are not addressed somewhere in the left sphere?
In another comment in this thread I list some of the specific problems of boys and young men with good leftist solutions.
Sure young men join the left. I wouldn’t dismiss this as “edgyness” as I said their brains aren’t fully developed and that’s just how they express themselves at that stage of development. But then they’re generally recruited as “allies” rather than as champions of their own leftist causes.
We definitely haven’t captured enough leftist men and pointed them to fight their own fights. That’s the whole concept of the left. Everyone fights the patriarchy in the ways they need, and we help eachother’s causes as allies. Only in all of our efforts combined do we destroy the structures that harm us all. What keeps a demographic here imo is having their own fights to fight. I think that’s what’s not addressed, the pipeline to channel curious dejected young boys and point them to their own leftist struggles while learning about the struggles of others isn’t as well developed as other pipelines. I think this is because it’s only in the last few decades that the left has had more to offer than the right for this demographic. To me that’s a call to work on the pipeline not to shrug and dismiss the situation.
Also I think you dismiss too quickly what the right has to offer women and minorities. Yes they openly hate them, but they offer them their own hierarchies under which to hate and control others. That’s why the right is so attractive to minorities such as immigrants who are used to thriving in the privileges offered to them in these structures. That’s why it’s so attractive to many older women who want power in local community social and political spheres. Although this is how their participation looks like in these structures, they usually see it as “improving societal norms” and “preventing moral decay and corruption of the youth”. This is important because people need to feel like the good guys. I’m not saying these people are better off under the right. I think EVERYONE is better off with the left. But there is a lack of understanding of what the right has to offer and why it’s attractive to people. It’s easier to tailor our message when we empathize with people and cater the message based on that.
Edit: I would also add being good allies to young men and boys fighting the leftist fight. Sometimes we tend to fear that helping them means somehow there will be less for everyone else, but it’s not a zero sum game. We destroy the patriarchy by dismantling it where it hurts us and by being a good ally to all of those who seek to dismantle it where it hurts them.
In another comment in this thread I list some of the specific problems of boys and young men with good leftist solutions.
If you don’t engage with what I write, than there is little point in this conversation for me.
That’s the whole concept of the left. Everyone fights the patriarchy in the ways they need,
Just want to point out, you confuse leftism and feminism and you spend to much time debatelording online, afk most people just want to live their life and not fight the system.
My comment was too long as is. There are like 20 comments in this thread I didn’t think I was asking for a lot to point you to a list.
I got to “the patriarchy” through leftism not feminism. When I say patriarchy I mean hierarchal structures of oppression. I spent a long time working against hierarchal structures and thinking before I realized that when feminists say “the patriarchy” they refer specifically to the primary hierarchal structure of oppression that has been operating for the last few centuries in the western world and in other parts. Since it’s more specific and precise than “the primary hierarchal structure of oppression that has been operating for the last few centuries in the western world and in other parts” I use it. It also helps me understand and connect to feminism better. I find as a man, it’s easy to feel alienated with certain rhetoric lately so this helps counter that.
I feel like I responded directly to your question though:
We don’t have a good pipeline for young men to get from curious to fighting for their rights through leftism
We’re not good allies to young men who fight for leftist ideology.
You’re right in your final point, most people just want to live their lives. When we show them the things that help them are on the left they’ll vote left. The ones who want to fight will be the ones fighting.
No you still didn’t answer what aspects for young men, the left does not cover?
Also do you have any real life experience with leftist spaces? I happen to work with visuals and so I’m involved in with the alternative scene quite a bit. Never been alienated as a dude or see other guys being alienated for being a man. There is also no shortage of guys there.
Kudos to you for contributing! No, I’ve never felt out of place in leftist spaces, but I know many young men are alienated by what they see of “loud” leftist ideology, lack of support online etc…
As for “aspects” I believe ideologically the left has the best answers for men. I think it’s more the logistical aspects I described in previous posts we don’t cover well/enough.
The Left has failed in men insofar as it sanctions (and even encourages) hate towards men.
Boys grow up seeing acceptable misandry every day on their social media. They’re implicitly taught to think less of themselves simply for being male on their feeds - and that’s on top of the age-old societal message that men are disposable, their pain is ignorable, and that they are always replaceable.
So it’s not just the Left, no, but the wing that is supposed to challenge the status quo, that is supposed to represent progress and justice, shouldn’t be the wing that’s preaches it’s okay to hate men, to be contemptuous of men, or to demonize men.
You would need to ask the mods. Trekyards can be very negative and get stuck on points that aren’t based in fact. I can see their videos getting deleted in those cases. This is an analysis of a specific new ship in show they are generally positive about.
It's not so much the contradictory expectations that bother me, it's how success and failure are framed in modern society. The messaging is that for cis white men success should be externalized and failure should be internalized while for everyone not cis white and male it's the opposite. The messaging is that the system is built for the benefit of cis white men so when they succeed it's because the system pushed them to success and when they fail they do so in spite of the system pushing them to succeed so their failures are do to some particular flaw within themselves. The system is built for the benefit of cis white men so when someone who isn't cis white and male succeeds they do so despite the system pushing them to fail so the success is because of some special strength within themselves and when they fail it's because the system pushed them to failure.
There is truth to the premise that the system is built for the benefit of cis white men but the system doesn't push cis white men to succeed, especially not poor and working class men. It does give cis white men advantages but it does so primarily by creating additional barriers for people who aren't cis white and male. Your parents economic status is the most reliable indicator for success.
In general as you have said I think it’s wild that we try to individualise success and failures so much when the economic position of our parents is the most reliable predictor for success.
Thanks for sharing, I haven’t thought about this perspective in a long time!
Always love to see FD Signifier here. Overall solid takes on where things stand with a fair amount of historical context that is easily forgotten. The survey discussed early in the video has actually come up here before. Previous discussion can be found here
I would caution folks against commenting before watching the video. It is vital to the health of the community to make sure that we are building on the work posted and not uncritically rehashing the same reactionary ideas endlessly.
I’m never going to watch the video. It’s not a good time right now, and I don’t think there will be a better time where I will be interested, because I disagree with the little information I have about it. A better description would help.
I got a quote for replacing the siding of my house 10 years ago and then again from the same company and the price difference was like $100. Either they gave me a jacked up estimate all those years ago or the price of wood going up is all bullshit.
Yeah, it’s uncommon, but I’ve seen that そら reading used in other places too, but it’s mainly been in manga, anime, videogames, like in your example.
I wonder if it was a relatively recent fad to read it that way (like in the past 20 years or so?)
In the visual novel 9-episode, there’s a kind of a meta comment about that unusual reading.
One of the characters in the visual novel is a teenage girl who was born with the 天 name and そら reading. She intensely hates this name because because everyone usually just calls her てん instead of そら. She describes her name as a 厨二ネーム and she blames her parents for trying to be too edgy, like a 厨二病 teenager edge-lord who has read too much manga and comes up with cringe-worthy names thinking they are cool-sounding but they are not.
Because of that 厨二ネーム, she thinks that’s the reason why she’s grown up with an eccentric personality, and does strange goofy things, all because of the edge-lord-sounding name. She vows that when she becomes an adult, she’ll change her name to something more conventional.
The 9-episode visual novel came out a few years ago, so the girl’s parents might have grown up reading manga like Bleach. so I wondered if this was a kind of meta-joke on chuuni-souding names with weird readings.
I laughed when I read the teenage girl’s rant about her name because 厨二病 is something you usually attach to teenagers, but here, the teenager is criticizing her adult parents for being like that, so it’s a kind of role-reversal.
A bit related to that, I heard that you are restricted on what kanjis to use for names but not on how they would be read. So a person could be named 空 and have the reading be スカイ(sky)
I didn’t know about the kanji restriction but that makes sense.
As far as readings, yeah, you’ll definitely see some wacky ones. There’s also a lot names that use ateji and spell things phonetically with kanji like 真理亜 (Maria).
youtu.be
Active