Episode Discussion | Star Trek: Strange New Worlds | 2x05 "Charades"

LoglineA shuttle accident leads to Spock’s Vulcan DNA being removed by aliens, making him fully human and completely unprepared to face T’Pring’s family during an important ceremonial dinner.

Written by Kathryn Lyn & Henry Alonso Myers

Directed by Jordan Canning

FormerGameDev ,

So… what was up with the door in the transporter room slamming shut in Pike’s face when he turned to leave Amanda and Spock? lol

MikeyMongol ,
@MikeyMongol@lemmynsfw.com avatar

Yeah! I was wondering that too. Either it was a flub that they left in because it was funny, or it was a flub that they left in because they didn’t have another good take, or it’s a breadcrumb for a weird AI-takes-over-the-Enterprise season finale.

felixxx999 ,

Yeah. Pike kept trying to avoid the family conflict the whole episode. Seeing the door shut on him and him trying to wave it open was comic gold. He was probably thinking, “what the hell? This is my ship!” then he just stood there looking awkward. Gold.

gnuplusmatt ,

In a good way, they took a lot of scifi things that have been done in other trek and remixed them into a very good episode. It had shades of Voyager’s “Faces”, DS9’s “You Are Cordially Invited”, Data getting his emotion chip in generations. These are things we’ve seen, but explored in new and pleasing ways.

I feel like these bread crumbs of context to “Amok Time” are going to make a classic episode better, but for a lot of newer fans there could potentially be no pay off if TOS can’t hold their attention.

Some fan discourse I’ve seen on mastodon suggested “oh look there’s the AR wall” like its some kind of bad thing, but I don’t see this as any different to saying “oh look CGI character” we all know it, you don’t need to point it out.

triktrek ,

Good CGI/LED walls blend in. If you notice it, it breaks the 4th wall a bit. Battlestar Galactica 2004 had CGI and it worked so well and looks very believable.

echo ,

Some fan discourse I’ve seen on mastodon suggested “oh look there’s the AR wall” like its some kind of bad thing

AR wall is just 21st century matte painting

goGetF1 ,

The AR wall stood out to me more on Rigel VII, where the background, while beautifully done, just had that empty, standing in the middle of CGI look. In this episode, it made sense for it to be obvious. They’re in a space humans can’t truly perceive, much like the celestial temple, and it had a sterile feel that seemed right for the chatbot aliens.

skfsh ,

“Oh look, it’s the AR wall” is the modern version of “oh look, it’s the same octagonal set dressed up with random props from a couple of other episodes to represent an alien planet”

Madison_rogue ,
@Madison_rogue@kbin.social avatar

After some further thought, I have to make the observation that I think T'pring knew something was wrong with Spock. There are a few things that T'pring does that indicates she knows that whatever Spock is going through, it's more than he lets on. The main indication, to me, is when she held his hand after pouring the tea, which has to be excruciating to Spock. She helps him while he's pouring the water to ensure the tea is properly steeped. She initiates the end of the Ritual of Awakening; interrupting her mother because the timer has expired. She defends the memory Amanda and Spock share. I love T'pring because, regardless of the circumstance, she stands beside Spock and defends him in the best way possible.

Unfortunately, by the time she realizes something is amiss, they are committed to the ritual and they cannot get out of it even if she would want to delay it. I still think that Spock, at the time, chose to not disclose his condition for good reasons. I'm still on the fence that T'pring would've accidentally revealed that during the mind meld with her mother. I'm still onboard that Spock made the correct decision, however I can say that he should of at least disclosed that something was amiss a little later on.

SamHandwich ,

I agree with you. T’pring really shows a lot of care & compassion here, and I think it makes her decision at the end of the episode make more sense. We obviously know how this relationship works out in the end, but it really has me interested in how/if Chapel affects the outcome in further SNW episodes. (I’m choosing to believe T’pring hadn’t already scoped out Stonn as a partner by this episode because that seems too cruel for her, but I guess we’ll see.)

Madison_rogue ,
@Madison_rogue@kbin.social avatar

I mentioned in another post that I think T'pring, despite asking for time apart, eventually realizes that Spock omitting his current condition was entirely justifiable. I think she's hurt, but she then understands Spock's point of view (as logic would dictate) that omitting disclosure was the best path forward with the highest probability of success.

theothersparrow ,
@theothersparrow@lemmy.one avatar

It’s such a tragic moment because both their responses were reasonable.

T’Pring is about to be Spock’s wife, and it’s not simply a business union–she’s very much in love with him. She’s eager to be his partner and keeping changes in his life from her compromises that partnership.

The thing about Spock is that up to the end of the episode he’s still wrestling with the isolation that being bi-racial has come with–he’s aware that T’Pring should be let in but emotionally he’s never come around to that, having grown up at odds with other Vulcans.

What saddens me is that if Spock had communicated how his status affects his approach to full-blooded Vulcans (indeed if had even known to communicate it), I have no doubt T’Pring would have been much more forgiving… alas we sometimes figure out ourselves too late.

const_void ,
@const_void@lemmy.world avatar

Spock could have handled the situation better. He really should have shared he was unwell and trying to suffer thru it. Great episode.

MikeyMongol ,
@MikeyMongol@lemmynsfw.com avatar

Whyyyy would Vulcan kitchens run cooler than starships? Vulcan is a desert planet and Vulcans as a species are accustomed to high temps – which is even obliquely referenced in the ep when Amanda says that a Vulcan wouldn’t even notice the heat from holding a boiling hot teapot barehanded. I would assume Vulcan kitchens to be higher temperature than even Vulcan living quarters, which should be higher than human-standard room temp. I can’t think of any legitimate reasons why a Vulcan kitchen would be cooler than Pike’s quarters at all, let alone so much cooler that it makes a manifest difference in fermentation rates.

Cantstopthesignal ,
@Cantstopthesignal@lemmynsfw.com avatar

For food preservation? It’s only logical.

khaosworks ,
@khaosworks@startrek.website avatar

The Last Unicorn Games Star Trek RPG Sourcebook The Way of Kolinahr posited that Vulcan food is more delicately flavoured than human food because of the species’ enhanced sense of taste. That’s why Tuvok found Neelix’s spiced up version of plomeek soup (VOY: “Faces”) not to his liking.

I’ve often thought that foods from tropical climes on Earth tend to be spicy because chili peppers are anti-microbial and so it keeps food edible for longer. Similarly, salt serves a preservation function in more temperate climes. But if neither of these options are available to Vulcans because they would find the flavour too intense, then Vulcan kitchens (and pantries) might be designed to be cooler rooms just to keep food fresher for longer.

Speaking of freshness, it seems to be a necessary part of Vulcan foods. In ENT: “Home” we are told that gespar, a Vulcan fruit, may not taste good if it isn’t fresh, and in this episode T’Pril complains the halak is not fresh (and salted). The emphasis on freshness may be borne out of a climate in which food spoils quicker.

Tired8281 ,

Perhaps being from such a hot planet, their cuisine consists of mainly chilled dishes.

original_reader , (edited )

It’s funny how both Pike’s and Uhura’s first word with a totally unknown species is “Hi!”

You’re Starfleet! Come on!

OK… they will have learned this lesson by the 24 century. 😂

Also, why treat the aliens like idiots? Why say: “You made him easier to talk to” instead of “He is now a different species.” This seemed to just have served as a plot point to make Chapel admit her feelings openly.

These minor quibbles aside it felt like an average TNG episode. And for me that means it is a successful episode.

TeaHands ,
@TeaHands@lemmy.world avatar

I used to get told off for doing this at a call centre job because it was too informal. Definitely would not fly in a first contact situation!

teft ,

What’s wrong with just saying hi? They’re friendly people and are happy to meet someone new.

original_reader ,

It’s not wrong, but it’s not the best approach. Hi is casual and usually reserved for people that are familiar with each other.

Go to a dignitary and greet with Hi. Chances are it will not be perceived as showing the respect that could - and likely should - be given. In a first contact setting, a formal approach is surely the way to go.

psychothumbs ,

Maybe society just keeps getting less formal over time and by then “Hi” is one of the more formal ways to greet someone, as opposed to just “sup” or [suggestive eyebrow movement]

original_reader , (edited )

Doesn’t seem likely. By the time Picard takes over, the Federation has gone to great lengths to get first contact right. I am thinking of TNG episodes like The Big Goodbye, First Contact, Who Watches the Watchers or Darmok as examples.

And to push this further, chronologically before SNW, Enterprise already put some effort into first contact beyond Hi. Cogenitor is just one of many examples.

I will try to resist using the Beyond opening scenes as a reference, because they were just ridiculous.

stuck ,

they will have learned this lesson by the 24 century.

23rd actually, for SNW!

original_reader ,

I meant TNG. In the time period of TNG, it is the 24th century and they have learned the first contact procedure.

UhBell ,
@UhBell@lemmy.world avatar

I had so much fun watching this episode. Spock yelling at his mom in a beanie like a teenager fucking killed me. This episode was filled with so much potential meme material - I can’t wait to rewatch it to collect screenshots.

TeaHands ,
@TeaHands@lemmy.world avatar

This episode was so much fun!

I’ll admit, reading the premise ahead of time (by accident because Liftoff app doesn’t do spoiler tags yet oops) had me worried as I find a lot of attempts at “humour” in modern Trek tend to try way too hard and are just uncomfortable to sit through. But this was genuinely funny! Turns out Ethan Peck has great comedic timing, and Pike’s background antics and reactions were fabulous. The dynamic between T’Pring’s parents was a bit stereotypical but also extremely relatable.

Also really liked what they did with Nurse Chapel in this episode. Her pain and desperation helped balance the episode and make it something more than just funny hijinks. The feelings of regret and survivor’s guilt, the desperate need to fix something that wasn’t even your fault, grief over losing (at least partially, in this case) someone you love. So many complex emotions shown on screen at once, all by one character, and entirely believably, was not something I expected from a “haha funny Spock” episode.

astroturds ,

I needed the laughs this week and it totally delivered for me.

Star trek always does this to me, they introduce some character or change to a character that I initially would not agree with but they always make me love them. I’m going to miss human Spock now.

When they said they were bringing the Kirk’s into strange new worlds I thought it was a terrible idea, now I keep thinking how great a series with the new Kirk would be.

When seven turned up in voyager I knew it was because of sex appeal and the FHM magazine culture of the time so I was against it, now she’s my favourite character and I cried when she was made captain.

Whe Pike and Spock turned up in discovery I thought that was a bad idea, now pike is my hero and I never want SNW to end and Ethan Peck is totally smashing it as Spock.

Human Spock? What a shit idea. But, I absolutely loved it.

theinspectorst ,
@theinspectorst@kbin.social avatar

I really enjoyed this episode. The whole cast of SNW are really strong but Jess Bush has been a particular highlight - I'll admit I was cautious when I first heard they'd cast some Australian model as Chapel, but that caution was gone by the end of episode one and she's become easily one of my favourite characters. Ordinarily I don't tend to find that Star Trek romances do much for me but they've now got me invested in Chapel and Spock.

With hindsight my only mild criticism of the episode is the premise that a human Spock would be more emotional than the Spock we know. We constantly hear that Vulcans feel emotions more strongly than humans, but have learnt to embrace logic to control them - i.e. their nature is more emotional than humans but their nurture counterbalances this. So wouldn't a human Spock (with biologically human nature, but the nurture that Spock carries from his life experience being raised as a Vulcan) actually be super rational and logical?

goGetF1 ,

The episode acknowledges this at the end, when Spock says Vulcans feel more deeply. What I think we need to remember is that Vulcans have mental capabilities humans don’t. Human Spock literally did not have the same tools available to him that Vulcans do. It’s likely why Spock has more trouble with his emotions than full-blooded Vulcans.

theinspectorst ,
@theinspectorst@kbin.social avatar

That's a good explanation of it.

ByDarwinsBeard ,

He also points out that human emotions are different. I assumed this to mean the the rhetorical tools he uses to control his Vulcan emotions are ineffective on human emotions despite Vulcan emotions being stronger. It’s like having a vaccine for the flu, but still getting a cold.

theothersparrow ,
@theothersparrow@lemmy.one avatar

So wouldn’t a human Spock (with biologically human nature, but the nurture that Spock carries from his life experience being raised as a Vulcan) actually be super rational and logical?

I reasoned that whatever tools Spock employed failed for one of two reasons:

  1. Vulcan responses to emotion are extreme: surprise isn’t just surprise it’s abject terror, happiness isn’t just happiness but absolute mf hype, disappointment is more like a spiral of depression. Since human response to emotion is much more measured by comparison, he’d need time to recalibrate… time he didn’t have.
  2. The procedure that removed his hybrid nature removed whatever moderation was done to him. As a normal human he may not even have a katra anymore, so it’s possible that whatever physiological changes that take place after kolinar aren’t there because not all of the physiology is there.
YoBuckStopsHere ,
@YoBuckStopsHere@lemmy.world avatar

I keep watching this series and saying, see this is what we want. This was a fun episode that hit all it’s marks, science and technology, social issues, and an awesome story.

ValueSubtracted OP Mod ,
@ValueSubtracted@startrek.website avatar

Who is “we”?

psychothumbs ,

Me and @YoBuckStopsHere

siewyuk ,

Me and @psychothumbs and @YoBuckStopsHere

theothersparrow ,
@theothersparrow@lemmy.one avatar

Me and @siewyuk, @psychothumbs and @YoBuckStopsHere

CaptainProton ,

Things I liked: Ethan Peck and Mount have some great comedic chops. Many funny lines throughout, generally enjoyable.

Things I did not like: Never been a fan of altering Spock’s backstory with T’pring. Chapel doesn’t even know that Spock was engaged in Spock Amok. Please stop the T’pring stuff, also maybe it’s time we saw some Spock instead of all this funny stuff.

The entire part where Chapel has to explain her feelings to an alien felt juvenile and stupid.

Overall an ok episode.

original_reader , (edited )

The part of confessing feelings was really badly done. It seems like no one in the writer’s room had a better idea at that point and then they ran out of time.

ValueSubtracted OP Mod ,
@ValueSubtracted@startrek.website avatar

This comment was removed because it was not constructive.

stant ,

[Thread, post or comment was deleted by the moderator]

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    ValueSubtracted OP Mod ,
    @ValueSubtracted@startrek.website avatar

    This comment was removed because it was not constructive.

    ricdeh ,
    @ricdeh@lemmy.world avatar

    Sorry but I’m frustrated with all these boomer pseudo-fans demanding that SNW not contradict some obscure details of TOS. It’s a massive constraint that would severely limit SNW to the extremely dated and boring storytelling of 60’s Star Trek as well as their archaic and narrow social picture back in the day, and I am very happy that the writers are resilient enough to explore new avenues for Star Trek. I much prefer SNW’s variants of the characters to anything that was produced in old Trek.

    CaptainProton , (edited )

    Spock’s engagement came as a shock to everyone in Amok Time and that was part of what made the episode interesting. It was not some obscure detail. The storytelling in TOS isn’t boring, especially not Amok Time, one of the best episodes in the franchise. As for the social commentary this episode did nothing new so I don’t know what you’re talking about.

    Also, narrow social picture? The new shows have been pretty timid in this regard, far more than TOS was for its time. Picard gave us an uninteresting token lesbian relationship that no one can care about and Disco gave us a non-binary character who had to explain her use of pronouns to the characters. Buckle up, non binary people, you’ll still be weirdoes 300 years in the future, according to Star Trek at least.

    Advice: if different opinions about a TV show bother you to the extent that you feel the need to insult those who have them maybe it’s time to disconnect from social media for a while and come back with a cooler head.

    Edit: I know that if you are a younger fan you probably have not watched TOS and your limited exposure to different kinds of media probably makes enjoying it a tall order for you; it might as well not exist. You should keep in mind, however, that many of us genuinely enjoy it and you have no right to call us pseudo-fans just because you don’t like it.

    StillPaisleyCat ,
    @StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website avatar

    [Thread, post or comment was deleted by the moderator]

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    brandoncarey ,
    @brandoncarey@vivaldi.net avatar

    @StillPaisleyCat
    I'm genx with an elder sibling that watched TOS during it's initial broadcast, so I grew up on a steady diet of Trek, loved TNG when it started and am loving SNW so far (still in s01).

    A couple of choices have gotten the old single raised eyebrow, but less "that ain't canon" and more of a "huh, that's a cool twist" kind of way.

    Whatever they're doing with Trek these days, I'm eating it up. Lower Decks, too, for what it's worth.

    ValueSubtracted OP Mod ,
    @ValueSubtracted@startrek.website avatar

    This comment was removed because it was not nice.

    original_reader ,

    My last comment was deleted because it wasn’t constructive enough. Let me try to remedy that.

    I completely agree that the confession part was not done in a way that fulfilled it’s possible potential. It felt forced and rushed. It was such a prominent plot point that had been built up for a while. IMO it would have been better for her to talk to a friend like Uhura who knew what was going on anyways. This could have made for an intimate character development moment. Like so we had more of an “alien of the week” moment.

    Meowrilena ,
    @Meowrilena@mstdn.fr avatar

    @ValueSubtracted they really decided to bet everything on this Spock - Nurse Chapel thing, haven't they? Not a fan.

    Nice comedic episode nonetheless.

    deepthaw ,

    The main thing I disliked is that it kinda of removed any chance of us getting a “Spock is split into his human and vulcan halves by a transporter accident and they totally don’t get along with each other” episode down the line.

    teft ,

    They already did that with B’Elanna. Why retread old ground?

    dethstrobe ,

    Because they can always do it better the second time. Like Time Squared and Cause and Effect are both time loop episodes, but Cause and Effect is way better.

    lagomorphlecture ,

    Ok, bit they could still do a transporter accident where Spock gets merged into one being with, say, an annoying alien from the Delta quadrant.

    skfsh ,

    I sort of kept thinking this was kind of like a reverse Tuvix.

    FormerGameDev ,

    we have already seen human Spock and Vulcan Spock battle, though. Although it was a dream.

    teft ,

    Let’s answer the real questions here.

    What should we call this relationship? Chock? Spapel?

    stuck ,

    Crock?

    emptyother ,
    @emptyother@lemmy.world avatar

    SpockH

    siewyuk ,

    Chapock!

    electrorocket ,

    Schpackel

    theothersparrow ,
    @theothersparrow@lemmy.one avatar

    Asking the hard-hitting questions.

    felixxx999 ,

    A few thoughts on the rewatch:

    Chapel having to explain her feelings for Spock to the alien was kind of a teenage show thing. BUT the more I think about it the more I realize that TOS had aliens with simple, sometimes pure, goals. So I think these aliens fit right in with ST.

    The “ancient alien” line may not age well. They are usually very careful not to put references to our time due to it not dating well (Musk, Stacey Abrams). I’ve heard it mentioned on Shuttle Pod show that the actors could not change a word of dialoge to protect the show from sounding of our time. Of course the joke of using that phrase will fade so maybe it’s OK.

    What was that bit about Pike’s girlfriend looking for Dilithium? Was it a joke that went over my head? Could someone explain?

    ValueSubtracted OP Mod ,
    @ValueSubtracted@startrek.website avatar

    What was that bit about Pike’s girlfriend looking for Dilithium?

    Pelia, the new engineer, is out looking for dilithium - not Batel.

    It was previously established that Pelia and Amanda are friends.

    marian ,

    The “ancient alien” line may not age well. They are usually very careful not to put references to our time due to it not dating well

    What do you mean? which line, what reference?

    felixxx999 ,

    They were referencing to the meme and history show Ancient Aliens. Nyota.

    lowvisnitpicker ,

    I agree about reference to our time, but the Lorca’s Musk line works because he’s from the mirror universe. I’m not sure that’s what the writers intended, but I’ll take it.

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